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fasterhorse

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Reply with quote  #1 
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/video_derrion_albert
This kid is an honor student murdered by punk thugs. Also remember the 17 year old white kid who was beaten on the bus by 2 black kids while everyone else cheered. Either of these victims could have been YOUR kid or mine. If a parent wants to get their kid out of a bad school district but can't afford to move, they should have a school voucher so that they can go to any school they choose. Funny how all of the liberal democRATS (yes JG I said RATS) constantly vote against giving us school vouchers so that we can have a choice where to send our kids, meanwhile they can and do send THEIR kids to a private school of their choice. They claim to be for the little guy yet their actions clearly show that they are not! Run the RAT BASTAGES out of office. They want to keep our kids in failing schools while they enjoy private schools. They want us on Socialized health care while they will still have access to private health care. They want us to retire on Social Security which THEY have bankrupted, while they enjoy their own special retirement fund which WE FREAKIN FUND!!!
I REPEAT, RUN THE RAT BASTAGES OUT AND LETS HAVE REAL CHANGE!! 

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fasterhorse

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Reply with quote  #2 

By the way this happend in Chicago while Barry O is busy trying to get the Olympics brought to Chicago.


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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #3 
fasterhouse - How easy it is to get all emotional, call names, and suggest a simple solution to a complex problem while blaming those one despises, even reaching to tie in the President. A catharsis akin to the primal scream.

May I suggest the following:
Go to Google. Enter "Vouchers in Education". Click in the menu on "School Vouchers, The Wrong Choice for Public Education". After reading that, click on "Vouchers and Education, pros and cons".

This issue has been bantered about by both Republicans and Democrats for some time now, even tested in certain states (education is still primarily a states rights issue). It also has been sent to the Supreme Court.

The deaths you acknowledge are real tragedies. One mother offered this solution; "We as parents have to take back our children". As long as the street owns the kids, tragedies such as these two you mention will occur, and these street kids wouldn't know a Republican or Democrat from a Communist.

It's sad, and some state and federal programs are in effect to help, but there is a sub culture there that is very difficult to dent. Poor people still suffer these situations more than rich people. Perhaps attempts at creating more equal socio economics and equality of opportunity would be a good beginning.


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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
fasterhouse - How easy it is to get all emotional, call names, and suggest a simple solution to a complex problem while blaming those one despises, even reaching to tie in the President. A catharsis akin to the primal scream.

May I suggest the following:
Go to Google. Enter "Vouchers in Education". Click in the menu on "School Vouchers, The Wrong Choice for Public Education". After reading that, click on "Vouchers and Education, pros and cons".

This issue has been bantered about by both Republicans and Democrats for some time now, even tested in certain states (education is still primarily a states rights issue). It also has been sent to the Supreme Court.

The deaths you acknowledge are real tragedies. One mother offered this solution; "We as parents have to take back our children". As long as the street owns the kids, tragedies such as these two you mention will occur, and these street kids wouldn't know a Republican or Democrat from a Communist.

It's sad, and some state and federal programs are in effect to help, but there is a sub culture there that is very difficult to dent. Poor people still suffer these situations more than rich people. Perhaps attempts at creating more equal socio economics and equality of opportunity would be a good beginning.

JG-I agree it is a states right issue,as is a lot of other things being forced on us by the Federal Gov."Amend Brother" ,give us our money back & let us solve our own problems.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
POV

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Reply with quote  #5 

Didn't Bush push the "No Child Left Behind" into the public schools?

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by POV

Didn't Bush push the "No Child Left Behind" into the public schools?

Yes he did.Your point is?

I still think it should be a state issue,not Federal.I don't care if it's Obama,Bush or Clinton pushing something onto the schools.The education should be up to each state,we don't even need a dept of education[there's a way to pay for HC].


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
gomrpi

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Reply with quote  #7 
WOW??? ... did he say what I think he said?????? look if you don't like the school system you are in then pay the big bucks to put your kids in ...

private school... or better yet home school them



masare

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Didn't Bush push the "No Child Left Behind" into the public schools?


Yep and Bush left the program unfunded for the school districts to pay for but he still mandated it's implementation.

Fasterhorse, you seem to forget schools stated failing during Reagan and he was the one to cut the budget for federal programs in education.  Remember the old Block grants?  Wrong party to blame.
fasterhorse

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Reply with quote  #9 
Schools started failing under Reagan? nice try. The public school system started failing long before Reagan ever took office. As usual the democRATS blame everything on lack of funding, that way they can push for more money to go to their teachers unions which in turn they donate more money to the democRAT party. Pretty nice scam, tax everyone for a good cause "education" funnel the money to the teachers union, then over 90% of the teachers unions donations come back to the democRATS. And why is it that the RATS refuse to vote for school vouchers? Because the teachers union forbid them to do so. In other words they can do what is right and give parents "choice" or they can vote to keep their money scam going.
And we keep hearing "choice and competition" coming from the RATS. I guess they think that if they say it enough, the American people will think they mean it.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #10 
fasterhorse - Your immature name calling and "tone of voice" blur your message, and there are some thoughts there worthy of consideration.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
fasterhorse

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Reply with quote  #11 

I think politicians who as a party, choose power and money over the well being of our kids deserve to be called far worse than "RATS" So I would think you would applaud my restraint.


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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #12 
fasterhorse - What then is your epithet for Republicans?
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
fasterhorse

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Reply with quote  #13 

Are the Republicans blocking school vouchers as a party? NO. Are they pushing socialized health care on us in spite of the fact that 56% oppose it? NO, We could go down the list... Are they perfect? NO But for the most part they represent the same values as I do. So my epithet for them is the party of Patriots. You libs can have Barneys Frank and Stretch Pelosi.


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I came here to kickass and chew bubble gum..... and I am all out of bubble gum.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #14 
fasterhorse - Nasty, nasty, but also humorous. Therein lies the difference between your perspective and mine. I recognize the politics of Republicans and Democrats and could easily note the economics differences, for example. Some other planks in party platforms also must be considered. In the class struggle among high, middle, and low, the Republicans prefer the high. But, they would gladly sell whatever values they might have if they could pry the voting block of educators from the Democrats. By the way, the Democrats would gladly pry any voting block from the Republicans that they could. That, my friend, is politics, and Political Parties are less parties of choice than parties of preference.

Power is the key and the end all and be all. Politics is the means to achieve that power. That you find yourself agreeing more with Republican concepts than Democrat concepts is a good thing (for you). At least you have thought about it. However, you might investigate "blue dog" Democrats who are basically conservative. Your unnecessary rhetorical tone and choice of mud slinging words, however, detracts from your noble ideas.

As for educational - political values (I was an educator for 32 years), I can only say that vouchers have positive and negative possibilities, and that has been proven by the litigation that has followed the possibility throughout its lifetime. It appears to be one of those situations in which perspective depends upon whose ox is being gored and whether education is "retained by the states" because it is not specifically given to the federal government (for good and obvious reasons). In any case, wealthy people have no problem because they just pay for good schooling and educating for their offspring in a private "school of their choice". Can you see why, in that respect, that economically Democrats appeal to middle and lower classes? President Bush once said at a black tie dinner, "It's great to be here among my base, the very wealthy and those with more money than that". That is a transparent Republican statement.

PS - Once again, I remind you that I am not a "lib", but rather a centrist who has voted with both parties in the last 9 years. With trepidation I remind you that people on the right tend to call anyone left of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh a "lib". That, to me, is a warped perspective. I am not fond of the politics of either Bernie Frank or Nancy Pelosi, but I particularly rail against Congress in general, especially in the last 9 years, not either political party in particular. I believe that many liberals and conservatives are Patriots of the first order. Conservative Republicans don't have an unique hold on that term. We certainly needed more Liberals speaking up in Germany in the 1930s, in Galilee during BC, and in the American colonies in 1775.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #15 
fasterhorse - To summarize my beliefs: I believe that our system of government as originally conceived is at best sick (intimates possible remedy) or is at worst corrupted beyond repair except by a revolution that will never come as long as our standard of living generally remains high, especially with those with power. I also believe that our economic system has literally become our government, to the despair of the bottom 2/3 of our citizenry. I was born in the 1930s, and have seen this gradual movement
from a bicameral legislature that controlled the purse strings, an executive branch that proposed law and regulated foreign affairs, and a Supreme Court that interpreted law, to a bicameral legislature interested more in pork and self aggrandizement than national need, an executive branch rendered basically powerless by a Congress mired in its own economic swamp, and a Supreme Court that wants more to make laws than to interpret them. Add to this two political parties vying for election and promising what cannot be, and we have the miasma that is our political nation. No wonder that we have citizens at each others' throats, screaming at what they basically don't even begin to understand and a media telling them what they should understand and what perspective to take. :

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
dukedog

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Reply with quote  #16 
The logical fallacy of voucher system:  The basic premise is to allow parents to choose the school their child goes regardless of school district or cost.  So the 'bad schools' go away because no one goes there and we're left with only 'good schools'.  Obviously though if everyone chooses to send their child to the 'good schools' then it becomes woefully overcrowded and is saddled with the same problems as the 'bad school' that closed. 

In fact, what voucher proponents really want is for the hated 'gubnet' to subsidize primarily middle and upper middle class private schooling.  They are banking on the outright apathy of many parents who simply don't care enough, aren't informed enough or (and this is more likely) still won't be able to afford to move their kid because the subsidy is not sufficient.  That way the voucher kids are then separated into the 'good schools' and the the non-voucher kids left behind.  Seems pretty similar to system that existed in Prince Edward County Virgina in the early '60's.

Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #17 

I am s little slow this morning......Was I just called a racist....again????


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #18 
I am having a similar problem here in Georgia. What normally were high standard  schools both academically and athletically have become terribly lacking. Gang and wannabe Gang Activity has become rampant and the people that had the high bar set for these schools have left and all thats left are the transplants....
I had to move back to this situation due to my fathers death and my ultimate need to take care of my ill mother. That being said I am at a cross roads of whether to keep my young daughter in this type of system(and Hope she survives), move, or home school...

Not a good choice...


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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #19 
Softball fanatic - No slower than I. I haven't heard anyone call anyone a racist. If race is brought into the discussion, in the inner city ( predominantly black) schools systems have been vilified because they can't overcome the innate cultural and economic problems that exist. In some states, rural areas are predominantly black. Both inner city schools and rural public schools are not like attending private schools purchased by those who are more wealthy. Check out former President Bush Jr's schools leading to Yale (he talked about how proud he was to have achieved despite being a "C" student). Therefore, it would seem to me that the problem is not racial, but rather socio-economic and sub cultural. Race is only an obvious stereotypical possibility. Suburban blacks don't have these problems. They have suburban problems if any.
The only racism that exists is among those who believe that the socio-economic problems of the inner city and some rural America are created by some innate aspects of a given race.
PS - Where I taught in an excellent public school for my last 24 years in education, we sent 94% of our students to "the college of their choice". Guess which socio-economic group lived in that community. Guess how many black students we had? That was 90% economic and 10% racist. Now that Virginia situation was flat out racist.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #20 
While I am fearful & upset with what is going on within the halls of congress.While i think our economy remains on very shaky grounds with many serious problems facing us in the near future.While the problems in the Middle East,with Korea &even Russia& China are all escalating at the same time.....I still have hope.
I believe our economy will rebound & those in congress that seem oblivious to the people who put them there will meet their end.
Why ,do I believe this?
Because I have confidence in the American people.They will jump start things through hard work & new innovation.I believe we will see innovations in many areas that will surprise all of us.
The government & the media,the far left &far right can tell the people what they should do,but in the end the people will figure it out.
The choices will be hard to right the ship.It will take some compromise on both sides & I believe will involve taxes on energy[hard for me to say] & spending cuts.
We must become a country of producers & not one that consumes.
Our future leaders are out there someplace.It is a great time for the true patriots from both sides to step up & if I were a betting man[and I am],I'd say a great majority of Americans would support them.
I pray I am around to see it happen....God bless America.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #21 
old scout - You are a rare gem, and I hope that you are right.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #22 
JG--Sorry, my mistake, I guess. I thought the post referencing the link to the prior problems in Virginia was citing the similarities in that program and the system the poster believes to be the true wishes of voucher proponets.

OldScout--I pray that you are right! For us to become a nation of producers, again, government must allow us to do so. They are making it very hard for us to do so!

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
dukedog

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softballfanatic

I am s little slow this morning......Was I just called a racist....again????



Absolutely not;  I don't think most people (there are still a few around that do) see school issues in racial terms. The fact is, though, that for a voucher system that really leveled the playing field in terms of opportunity would be exceptionally expensive.  At least in my state (NC) median family has declined by $3,500 since 2000.  There are more 'have nots' now than 20 years ago.  If you don't level playing field and allow 'freedom of choice' for only those of certain means you end up creating the dual school system much like existed in the Jim Crow south only the system is segregated along economic rather than racial lines.  For all it's detractors America's public schools were and are one of the institutions (perhaps the primary one) that made this country great. 
3sDad

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Reply with quote  #24 
One of the data points that just drives the voting masses crazy in NJ; thus the perennial call for school vouchers; is the cost of education per student.  Year after year, studies are published indicating the cost of education per student is higher in the urban school districts than in either the suburban or rural areas.  One can argue that urban areas need more gross dollars as they deal with a larger student population, need additional skilled teachers and other social services professionals suburban districts  may not need.  More dollars yes, but the cost per student to educate should fall within the range the majority of school districts in the State spend per pupil per year.  This is not the case and in fact many of these urban school districts spend much more per pupil than many of the the more affluent suburban school districts do.

Much of these additional funds in urban school districts are spent, not on educating students, but on Administration costs which do little to actually educate.  There has been movement toward reallocating these funds back to the classroom and away from Administrative costs, but more work is needed. 

PS: Our child is currently being educated a public school district who'se spending is higher than average, but not excessive. Socio-economic mix of the district is very mixed.

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3's Dad
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #25 
Gentleman---The point of the post asking about racism put you into a position defending your statement. It was no more a referendum on race than the people who dislike President Obama's policies!
Food for thought. Just a little perspective.

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
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