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sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #61 
Grizz now your starting to get to it.  IMHO, it is selfishness in many forms that enables liberalism, but is why it ultimately loses.  People dont want to be responsible ultimately for themselves totally or their families (1st, 2nd, or third).  They would rather just share the wealth and have the govt take care.  Being a do gooder is a nice facade.


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Susan
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #62 
Dewey the government is there to provide the things we can't provide for ourselves. National security, police and fire protection. The problem with democrats is that they want government to provide the things that we should be able to provide for ourselves.
I don't want or need the government to take money from me and save it for my retirement.
I don't want or need the government to provide health insurance for me.
I will gladly pay my taxes to pay for military, police, fire, ambulance, and teachers. But when teachers in Illinois can work 30 years and retire with $67,000 a year pension and free health insurance that is scamming the tax payers. When a teacher in Kansas can work 20 years an get full pension and insurance benefits, that is scamming the tax payers.
BTW Dewey I waited to answer your questions because I was not going to let you skim over the nationalized health insurance with your response of it not adding to the government dependency.
PS if people don't vote democrat because they want freebies from the government, then please tell me why do they vote democrat.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by masare
OMG! Seriously?

Yes, completely. Do you even realize that when the mythical,pension fund you are in comes up short on its investment projection the taxpayers have to cover the difference. You know what happens when my 401 k comes up,short? I get less money. Why should you be any different. Why should you be able to pad your last year of employment with OT or a job description change to spike your pension wage for the rest of your life?
What makes you so special in your mind that you feel you are owed more than those tha pay your salary.

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RIP Mark Campbell
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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyFan
Dewey the government is there to provide the things we can't provide for ourselves. National security, police and fire protection.


Grizzly - It's quite late here in Southern California and I'll ask one question and we can pick up on this tomorrow.  Why is protecting our homes from fire different than protecting our bodies from illness?  Talk to you tomorrow.
masare

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Reply with quote  #65 
Grizz you realize most teachers pay into a retirement fund right? Most 401k's have employer matching programs. I know you have a hate fest for teachers going on but do you understand what you hate?
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #66 
Masare the amount you pay in to your retirement is miniscule compared to what you get in return. There is no way you would get that return in the real world therefore I am having to pick up the bill to pay your lengthy pension. My disdain for teachers unions is where I have lost respect for most teachers. My state spends over $12,000 per year on each student. Yet our schools suck, our kids are not learning, and the teachers are making bank working 9 months out of the year.
At the same time, I send my kids to a private school where the average spent is less than $4,000 per student and guess what, we rank in the top 90% in the nation. My son for example is in the 96% in math.

Dewey, wow! Are you serious? You see no difference? If your house catches fire, do you have the ability to put it out yourself? No. Will it endanger the entire community? Yes.
If you get sick, you can take care of yourself. You can take yourself to the doctor if needed.
Dewey using your logic, why don't we ask the government to feed all of us too? Seriously that is a greater need than health insurance.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #67 
Grizz you hit he nail on the head. The funding the teachers contribute does not come close to the outlay during retirement. I read here in the paper that in CA the pension fund needs a 7% return to cover obligations, they earned .14% last year. Guess who has to cover the difference?
I wonder is Masare really doesn't understand that or is she just spewing the union talking points.

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RIP Mark Campbell
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pabar61

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Reply with quote  #68 
The attached article on Greece, while hardly new, is nevertheless instructive on the perils of excess government spending.  Hack economists like Paul Krugman don't think it's a big deal to run up huge deficits but it is a big deal.  The only long-term solution is to cut spending, which for the U.S., is complicated by the fact that we need to maintain some level of military presence throughout various parts of the world.  So far, most of the discussion on spending has been on slowing the rate of growth rather than any serious efforts to keep spending flat or reduce spending.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #69 
And the fact that a couple students and their parents are able to, in effect, dictate what happens in the classroom is a whole different issue.

I also believe that teachers get lumped together with all other public employees because of the power their unions have garnered.over the politicians.

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #70 
Coach B25 - I've been retired (after 32 years in education, teaching, administrating and coaching) from teaching/administration for 25 years, and for most of those I tried desperately to explain to others what you have so eloquently expressed. Of course it all fell on deaf ears except for those few from industry who visited our schools and left saying "I don't know how you do it" or "I can't believe your availability".  Then, as a teacher of English there was the matter of so many Saturdays and Sundays correcting essays or even longer papers. Weekends and holidays were a time for classroom preparation (one does not simply walk into a classroom cold and hurl forth great wisdom or data and analysis). I've known more than one teacher who succumbed to multiple choice tests because of that huge time burden. I used to time my major papers (for example research papers)  input for the Christmas holiday so that I would have enough time for correction.  Then there are the many summers spent working at numerous jobs to put food on the family table and pay the mortgage because of the low beginning salary, and the numerous hours at night spent getting a required degree or one that would increase the income for family.  The first few years were the most difficult (my first salary was $2700 per year but then the union came in and we received 11% raises for several years after, almost a living family wage).  Most of all, what is difficult to explain to others is the huge personal impact teachers make in the development of children, not the regurgitating of preplanned state questions to determine student progress and thus teacher efficiency, but rather in the fifty year olds who write back and say "Thank you for teaching me how to think without telling me what to think".  

But getting back to my feeling that I always had to defend my chosen wonderful career, I finally found out what to tell those complaining folks.  When they would spout the usual, I would then tell them -  "You are absolutely correct.  I have it made, and if you had gone to college and studied hard to become an educator, you could have had it made too.  It's not too late, you know".        Frank

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #71 
My wife has been a teacher for 27 years and I would never in a million years be able to do what she does.  It's not just that she works hard, it's how much she cares and frets about her students.  There are many, many teachers like that.

Every profession and trade, including teaching, has their share of slackers and incompetent boobs.  And in many industries, those people are tolerated either through poor management or laziness.  But only in unionized professions can those incompetent employees be protected from being fired.  Yes, they can be fired for egregious acts but not for poor work once they're tenured.

Teachers are amazing and completely undervalued in this society.  It is the union structure and leadership which I despise.

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #72 
I have a friend in Kansas that is a Jr High math teacher. She receives full retirement (around $40,000) after just 20 years of teaching. Another friend in Chicago teaches high school will get full pension ($67,000 a year + health ins) after 30 years teaching. 
So if you get a job at age 25, teach to age 55, then retire and live to 85. How can we sustain paying people for 30 years to NOT work?
Do the math! At $67,000 a year, you would have to have over $2,000,000 in an annuity to receive that kind of income.
Teachers, cops, firemen, dog catchers, government workers, used to be called "public servants". Now the public is serving them!

PS. yes Frank, why don't we ALL go to work for the government and see where that takes our country.
Ironic that liberals call me selfish because I don't want to pay for their exuberant pensions. Yet they don't consider themselves selfish for wanting someone else to pay for their exuberant pensions.

PSS We are all to believe that teachers are these selfless servants who sacrifice opportunities of more lucrative careers for the sake of our precious children. Yet we see how "selfless" they are when they trash a capitol building and leave the classroom unattended for days because they are protesting a governor who has asked them to contribute a miniscule amount more to their own retirement.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey


Grizzly -  In any event, I'm trying to get to how you say nearly two hundred million citizens are in the parasite category and you are in the minority.  Who is included in your group?  That's my primary question...who makes up this majority of parasites and how did you arrive at a total?  Are you really including retired police and firemen, as overpaid retirees, in the parasite category? 



Grizzly - Do you want to take a moment and agree your estimate of the parasite category is vastly overestimated or, if not, be more definitive?  Thanks.


LMUFan - You miss many variables in your estimate of a pension.  One, rather than paying your your entire wage, the employer most likely contributes some to the pension to go along with the employee's likely contribution. Secondly, many pay into a fund they never utilize.  Thirdly, compound interest or investment gains will add to the growth of the fund.  Fourth, some retirees will draw less due to death and, yes, some will live longer.  There are so many variables to consider, estimating investment return is one of them, but to suggest such a plan is ill advised is not necessarily supported by the many defined benefit plans in existence today.  It does take some mathematical and actuarial work but it's not rocket science.  Unfortunately, combine a once in a lifetime recession, fewer contributors, more forced to retire, huge losses in some investments, and low interest rates, and you find employers and governments forced to up their contributions greater than they had anticipated which, agreeably, has caused some significant near term problems in a lot of places.

Grizzly II:  Hand me $2,000,000 and I'll pay Coach $67,000 per year for thirty years and I'll still have the $2,000,000 when he dies.  As I said, you are missing a lot of variables in your math.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #74 
Dewey, I don't know the % of those who vote democrat that are truly parasites and moochers. I just know that nearly 100% of parasites and moochers do vote democrat.
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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #75 
CoachB - Good post.  Unfortunately, if one wants to criticize our Government, one has to criticize teachers and their unions.  It's par for the course.  I know many many teachers and I couldn't be prouder of all of them.  I'd like to think the vast majority of citizens feel the same as me.  It seems like only yesterday we agreed how teachers were paid very little, compared to their contributions, but now, the more divided our politics grow, the more overpaid our teachers have supposedly become.  It's a misleading criticism and it's a shame.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #76 
When you say the school district contributes, you mean the tax payers contribute. I pay $2600 per year to our school district and would sure like to know where all of that money goes. $12,000 per kid is a lot of money.
Again, the teachers and their union showed what sacrificing servants they are when Wisconsin asked them to contribute a little more to their own pension plans in order to keep the state from going bankrupt. They abandoned their kids in the classroom so they could go trash the Capitol building for a few weeks!

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #77 
The problem that bothers people not in the public sector is that their retirement dollars will fluctuate with the market and they have to adjust accordingly and yes their money can run out if investments can't keep up. The public employee unions have deals that no matter what happens the retiree benefits do not change. Less taxes coming in, no problem, bad investments with the pool money, no problem. It creates an unsustainable package. With all of the variables in the economy there is no way to successfully maintain a defined benefit for the life of the retiree, unless you have an unlimited well, the taxpayers, to draw from.
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woody

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Reply with quote  #78 
Education vouchers anyone?
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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #79 
No way.
With Government money comes government intervention and control. I pay for private education to avoid what goes on in the public school system. If they started accepting vouchers it would be the foot in the door to start pushing all of their failed policies on the private schools.

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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #80 
Vouchers are opposed by unions because it leads to teacher accountability which union leadership opposes.  Leadership opposes anything that could potentially lead to a loss of their power.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #81 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25

Wow, I almost made a classless post in response to Grizzleyfan telling me I should go around and thank everyone.  Essentially meaning I'm stealing from them and haven't earned it.  I have easily contributed in one way or another over $100,000 to this school district in camp monies, buildings that were built through donations that I asked for, beautification projects that I asked a local nursery owner to donate trees and he did so because I once coached his son ... 

So, I'll take a break now and you can hate on teachers. 

Time for a timeout. 



Coach, I just want to say here I have always enjoyed your posts.  You are one of those that I truly like to log on and read a post from that person.   I feel a man of your experience (and from what I know of your stature) should not be subjected to life in present day Illinois.  [I have mentioned that b4.]  Just want to say a public thank you to you for what you bring to the table.



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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #82 
Coach I am glad you have worked hard to get people to donate their money willingly to your program and school. 99.9% of teachers don't work that hard.
As for your pension simply being a result of incredibly smart investing, all I can say is wow! The only thing that the teachers unions have invested in wisely is the politicians that they purchased.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
woody

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Reply with quote  #83 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazsdad
No way. With Government money comes government intervention and control. I pay for private education to avoid what goes on in the public school system. If they started accepting vouchers it would be the foot in the door to start pushing all of their failed policies on the private schools.


It depends on how the voucher system is created. Only one requirement, that the school be accredited, so that diplomas, grades, and gpa"s count for college entrance. How could that be a problem? If the state spends say 10K per student, each child receives a 10K voucher deposited in the chosen schools account. Send your child to a 24K a year school, and make up the difference. Send them to a failed public school and the cost is nothing. As public schools are required to compete, the failed schools will close, and their administrators and staff can apply for employment at schools that excel. Schools that excel will have the best staffs, and the best management of funds. Competition between schools could actually lead to reduced costs to the state, as schools compete for voucher dollars, and some could offer educations at the same price for years without funding increases. These private schools provide their own facilities, and facility maintenance, reducing the number of state and local employees, and their pension, and health care costs to the tax payer. Let the parents decide where their child attends school, and thereby change the failed structure of public schools. Of course if you don't like the vouchers, by all means, continue to keep your child at a voucher free school, it's your right as a parent, and you already pay school district taxes with no benefit to your child anyway.

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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #84 
If the only requirement was as you described fine. But how often does the government give money with no strings attached? There is no way the politicians lose their union cash cow.
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RIP Mark Campbell
Truly one of the best there was
Victory USA. OC BatBusters. Pacifica HS
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #85 
Charlie - Just what is hard work?  If your daughter has not yet learned what it is (please excuse the obvious and the painful) then she has not yet learned how to be a good teacher.
Good teachers are more than aware of what hard work entails and more than that pass on an effective work ethic to their students.  I'm thoroughly surprised that someone growing up in the climate of your family wouldn't have a "hard work" ethic.  By the way, I don't think that one of my three offspring ever learned how to work hard and give top shelf effort to things either.  Two did.  I think that one is given to us to keep us humble.      Frank
PS - My Daddy told me that there are at least two types of hard work.  He said that one is being paid for what you do, and the other is being paid for what you know.  He insisted that the latter was the better choice if possible.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
woody

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Reply with quote  #86 
But you see, vouchers are being discussed in the state of Texas, a right to work state. We have no state income tax, and have a budget surplus, thanks to a balanced budget amendment to our state constitution. The public school system,the Texas Education Association, along with Liberals and Urban politicians are the ones that stand to lose the most power, so they are howling the loudest against open competition. I can see how vouchers are never likely to become reality in Socialist states with huge budget deficits, and deficit spending run amok. These Socialist states, should not be bailed out by the fiscaly responsible states. These Socialist states populations, continue to shrink, as their manufacturing businesses leave for states with lower taxes, and a pro business attitude. These Liberal states are a failed Socialist experiment, as proved by their contracting state economies, and increased taxation to cover their deficit spending, and growing number of underfunded government workers pensions..
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #87 
Not to mention that the teachers unions spend millions of dollars to get certain politicians elected then negotiate contracts with those same politicians. Funny thing is that as educated as these teachers are, they fail to see any conflict of interest with that.
Back to the original point, the reason democrats get elected is that there are too many moochers, leeches, and parasites who will vote for the party most likely to give them things at the expense of someone else.
Like I said Dewey, I don't know what % of democrats are moochers, leeches, and parasites, but I do know almost 100% of moochers, leeches, and parasites do vote democrat.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyFan

Like I said Dewey, I don't know what % of democrats are moochers, leeches, and parasites, but I do know almost 100% of moochers, leeches, and parasites do vote democrat.


There were 130 million votes cast for President.  Thirty percent of households earn less than $24,000.  That's 39 million of these voters.  Romney grabs 34% of low income households meaning he won 13 million of these low income voters.  Thirty percent of these low income households were black, which totals 12 million households Romney didn't get votes from, leaving 27 million non-black poor voters.  As previously noted, Romney won 13 million of these voters or almost half of the 27 million non-black total.  Even if the total poor voters is less than these estimates, the fact Romney won nearly half the poor non-black vote stays the same.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #89 
You can't just look at income.  46 million Americans are on food stamps.  9 million are receiving disability insurance payments.  I don't know how many of these folks cast votes or voted for which candidate but I would guess that most voted for Obama for fear that Romney would threaten their payments.

But the point is being lost.  We're turning into a country that tolerates or encourages people to not be productive.  That is the liberal way.

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #90 
So Dewey what is your point? That poor people are the moochers? Nice stereotype! For your information, there are a lot of poor people who simply want government out of the way so they can make a good living and fulfill the American dream.
Being a moocher, leech, or parasite has nothing to do with income level. (Sorry you wasted all that research time) Sandra Fluke goes to a very expensive university and I am sure she comes from wealth. She is a big time mooching parasite who demands that someone else pay for her condoms so she can pork everything that walks by her dorm room.
As I said, many teachers who want me to pay them $60,000 a year for the next 30 or 40 years after only putting in 20-30 years work are parasites. They hardly qualify as poor.
Shall I continue?
Again, sorry you wasted time with worthless research.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
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