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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #121 
Grizzly,

don't be gone for long and don't go far.  I dig your links, your threads and your foreign affairs 'takes'.  Check in very soon.

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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #122 
Since Griz is fleeing the scene, I shall try to create for you folks the dilemma that creates his anger about teachers, and other government employees (he's obviously not one), in a real life scenario near and dear to me since it is mine as well as many other governmental employess retired at a particular time  from the state of New Jersey.  Keep in mind that politicians from both parties are, after all, politicians who depend on votes to be elected.  This scenario was created by the party (not really, just politicians) that Griz supports.  

My wife (also a former educator)  and I have lived frugally in retirement for 25 years, which is easy for us as we have few "wants" on basically my retirement package from education supplemented by Social Security for both of us and a supplemental annuity which I paid into throughout my "working" life.  My wife's retirement (parochial school for 27 years) is $400 per month which I tell her to keep for "spending money. She ostensibly will receive her rewards in heaven.  

When I retired, the state of New Jersey (the politicians thereof) offered a retirement package known as 25-55- and out.  One had also to be a veteran of a legal war (mine was the Korean).  Their purpose was to eliminate those government employees (teachers, policemen, firemen, etc) at the top of state salary guides and prove to tax payers that they were saving money (penny wise and pound foolish) by hiring at the lowest level of the scales.  If I die, my wife receives my retirement package (my choice).  The political Party is irrelevant as either would have done the same. Included in this retirement package was half pay and  100% medical and pharmaceutical benefits for myself and my family.  Mama dint make no fools.  I retired and opened up my own corporation which I ran successfully for ten years, taking advantage of every government loophole that I could find to increase profits and perqs.  I've been on both sides of Griz's argument.

In three years the cost of pharmaceuticals had risen 400% and medical costs had risen substantially.  The state of New Jersey found itself in a financial bind of its own making. Hence, the "penny wise and pound foolish" but voters loved the idea of "saving money" until it became an economic disaster.  
Given total  income from state taxes and the great outlay to retirees and other state dedicated monies, the State could no longer give large education moneys to local school districts (based on per pupil cost) because they didn't have the money to give.  This meant that individual municipalities had to pick up the financial slack through municipal taxes to run their local districts.  In the district where I had worked (Note LSUFan that I worked), one nice house paid $80,000 in municipal taxes in one year.  Yep, people were pissed way beyond Griz, and rightfully so. In marched Governor Christie, and the rest is history.  I might vote for him if he runs in 2016 and I'm still on the planet. Did they blame the politicians for the fiasco?  Of course not !  The spin was to blame the teachers' union.  

Are teachers (and firemen and policemen, etc.) at fault for accepting what politicians create as retirement for them?  I think not, yet I can understand my man Griz's dismay at the situation that exists.  I just think that he's angry at the wrong people.   

I hope this gives a better actual meaning to the situation for any people who actually care.      Frank


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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #123 
LMUFan - Chris Christie entered a horrible financial situation in New Jersey caused in part by the retirement packages given to government employees by previous administrations and the unbelievable increases in prices for medical and pharmaceutical costs which were part of the separation package for state employees.  His administration addressed the problem like a horde of swashbucklers, slashing here and there and endearing himself to any Jersey citizen who wasn't affected personally by the severe cuts.  His administration's efforts were considered  not "good politics" but what were initially very high municipal taxes necessitated by the Henry VIII syndrome, empty coffers at the state level,  were reduced and the tax payers rejoiced at their good fortune.  Every good politician has a scapegoat to offer the madding crowd, and Christie's was the teachers' union.  He went after them like stink on an outhouse.  Basically, the administration did what was absolutely necessary to right the ship of Jersey financially while committing what some saw as political suicide.  Of course that meant cuts everywhere, but they did that.  Some screamed, but most rejoiced, and Governor Christie became a national figure in the Republican Party for his ideas and flamboyant screw you style.  During the aftermath of the huge storm that devastated Jersey among other states, Christie crossed political lines, even praising President Obama for his attitudes and his aid. His attitude was "whatever will fix the problem".   The guy looks like Taft (too much good Jersey Italian food) and plays the political game like Truman.  If he runs in 16, and I'm still on the planet, I probably will vote for him.  There are Republicans, and there are Democrats, and there are Pragmatists.  I'm voting for the brash pragmatist.   
Frank

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
vol52

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Reply with quote  #124 
"I'm voting for the brash pragmatist."

Here, here!
_____________
Steve Rhodes
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #125 
When you consider that Biden would be an improvement over the present farce, Christie appears well-suited.

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- Velvet Underground
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #126 
LMUFan - I understand completely what you say.  My favorite politician was the idealist Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey (second was Truman).  Bradley was mentally beaten down by every politician who embraced "The Washington Way" , including those in his own Party like his adversary in the Democratic Presidential primary, the senator from Tennessee who invented the internet (Al Gore) , and so he resigned from the Senate.  If Christie were to be elected President, I would love to see the sparks fly if he maintained his integrity and approach  and opposed "The Washington Way".   Frankly, I don't hold out too much hope for his stance because of the power principle in Congress, but I'd enjoy the free for all which might expose some governmental corruptions (I can just hear Christie explaining to Congress that they have to give up their pork to reduce deficite spending and Mitch McConnel whispering to Boehner, "We have to talk turkey with this youngster and straighten him out").  I still say that "the system" is corrupted FUBAR and the self serving two party system has proved itself to be much more of an impediment to effective government than an aid to national improvement.  Hence, I see Hope and Change as lofty impossibilities and pretty much same old, same old, no matter who sits in the White House.  Remember that a cynic is just an idealist who has grown older, and I am very old.       Frank
PS - My best political advice is "Hang on to your own rice bowl, and if it overflows, help someone less fortunate with your excess".

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
masare

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Reply with quote  #127 
Yeah, but you still need to make it through theses four years...:-) Whoever wins in 2016 will have a better situation waiting for them than president Obama faced. Unless we are pushed into another war!! The truth is if things continue to improve get ready for another big shock to the previously established assumptions for who should be president...barriers are coming down! Fun stuff!!
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #128 
Blue - In my mind Biden wouldn't be an improvement over Romney or Carter, and that's saying something.  I think the jury is still out on Obama, but the next four years will tell the tale.    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #129 
Masare - In terms of ideology, I really liked and would endorse President Obama's Inauguration speech, but translating all that into actuality with some stone headed opposition in Congress will be difficult or even impossible.  I do agree that "things" will be better in 2016 than when Obama took office, some because of ideological improvements and some because of economic cycles.  So it goes.   Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #130 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
and some because of economic cycles.  So it goes.   Frank


You think so Joisey?  does it always take so long?  This revisionist theory that it was all George W's fault could go on for 4 or 5 more years don't you think?

I am more on the Hammer's side on this issue.  Too many jobs have left America that won't come back and that is the biggest part of the problem, of not finding good jobs, in this country that you can think of.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #131 
Real - Do you see that as greedy USA corporations seeking additional obscene profits by downsizing and outsourcing and thus creating profit on the backs of laid off American workers, or do you see corporations leaving because of excess governmental taxation and union presence in workers' negotiations?  Or do you see a natural order of things under macro capitalism being fulfilled?  Or all or none or something else?  What do you see as a good solution to your choice of "the evil" that is killing jobs and injuring our micro economy?    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #132 
I think I have stated this publicly before Joisey, I am a union member. 

My job is in the utility industry though, I have been there 32 years and have seen many changes.  I cannot defend public employee unions and will not attempt to.  I know the history of unionism in this country back to the meat packers, sweatshops and beyond.  I hear allies, sbmom, grizzlyfan, LMUfan and woody continuously bash unions.  They have valid reasons and that is their right.

I can defend my own union, Communication Workers of America, but I don't want to.  You all don't know me well enough and I refuse to be pissed off because of what people say on this forum.

I have ideas of what and why jobs have left this country.  I also have ideas that they won't come back.  Unions may have fulfilled their usefulness in this world and that's a shame.  I have NO faith in Corporate America doing the 'right' thing for American workers.  Workers will have to go through a 'revival' again to matter.

One of my favorite sayings.


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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #133 
Real - Love it !!!!!     Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
woody

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Reply with quote  #134 
KIR, with the amount of money spent on prevailing wage scale contracts, soon the Government may be the only entity hiring union workers. Wonder why all the manufacturing plants are moving out of union controlled states? It is because they aren't just competing with China, and other nations, they are competing against unions to produce products at competitive prices. I foresee almost all of our nations manufacturing in the not too distant future, being limited to specialized manufacturing of oil field equipment, and specialty steel machining that requires critical tolerances. Everyone else that manufactures products in the Union states, needs to actively send out their resumes. If you are in construction, which in part you are, you get to bargain at the table. If you are an assembly worker in a factory, you get to watch other nations crush your union. All that separates your industry, from the manufacturing industry, is a visa card, and millions of our friends from Mexico, that will work for lower wages. Enjoy the Obama Presidency, allowing any and all that would swim the ditch to take your job. Enjoy the weekends off, which I know you work plenty of, because the Mexicanos will work any hours, on any day, for lower wages. Thanks Dems, for allowing illegal immigration to take jobs from Americans. It is happening in Texas, why not your state and town? You are next, and we will ship them there as fast as we can.
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Capitalism is such a precious thing. Everyone should try it at least once in their lifetime. It's just really such a cool thing to enjoy with family and friends.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #135 
good post woody.  They may very well indeed take someone's job but if they don't swim across, learn English, learn the trade AND get hired in the next 5 years they will be too late to take 'my' job.  As far as those who come after me, they are on their own.  I know the same guys coming after my job are the ones who are painters and landscapers now, getting some 'training' and then will be coming for your work also and underbidding you.
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Shut up doofus. Not talking to you. 
 
woody

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Reply with quote  #136 
They have already swam the ditch, and are working, but the one thing that isolates me from them, for now anyway, is a masters license, and a contractors license, and required insurance coverage. Strange that masters license exams are offered in Spanish though. Liberal Yankees, enjoy your new found illegal workers program, we have had one for years, why should you folks be free from the immigration problem. It is coming to your town, school district, and neighborhood, and it WILL cost you more tax dollars, to support illegal aliens in your town. They will be taking your kid's job, that they used to have a during summer. We are sending someone up north to take that position. Your wife used to have a part time position during school hours, we are sending someone to take that position. You used to have a good job in a manufacturing plant, we are sending someone to take that too. Been there, seen that. Enjoy your all encompassing love of "struggling immigrants", as they come into your community, and take your jobs, and raise your taxes. Thanks Liberal democrats, this is what you wanted, right? If not, please tell me what you would offer to change what is happening in the real world, on the ground, as you pontificate. 
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Capitalism is such a precious thing. Everyone should try it at least once in their lifetime. It's just really such a cool thing to enjoy with family and friends.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #137 
Nice posts woody and real.  Wish you both well.
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Susan
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #138 
WSJ reports universities cutting back on adjunct professor hours to avoid Obamacare costs.
#WhyLiberalismDoesntWork

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/01/20/universities-bludgeon-adjuncts-with-obamacare-loophole/

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- Velvet Underground
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #139 
Would someone please tell Senator McConnell that you know a person named Dewey who is looking for specific examples of what might be "far left of center" vs "left of center" in the Obama inauguration speech?  He calls it a new Liberalism.  If you hear anything, let me know what he says.  Make sure he provides examples of each so I can decipher the difference.  Thanks.

PS:  Mr. O'Reilly interviews George Stephanopoulos and asks how does Clinton differ from Obama?  George says he thinks they are pretty much in sync and differ little while Bill finds it hard to believe.  I've been making this point for quite some time as well.  George suggests the Right has moved so far right in their thinking that all of them probably see Obama as further left.  O'Reilly would have none of it.  Spot on George.

ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #140 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Would someone please tell Senator McConnell that you know a person named Dewey who is looking for specific examples of what might be "far left of center" vs "left of center" in the Obama inauguration speech?  He calls it a new Liberalism.  If you hear anything, let me know what he says.  Make sure he provides examples of each so I can decipher the difference.  Thanks.

PS:  Mr. O'Reilly interviews George Stephanopoulos and asks how does Clinton differ from Obama?  George says he thinks they are pretty much in sync and differ little while Bill finds it hard to believe.  I've been making this point for quite some time as well.  George suggests the Right has moved so far right in their thinking that all of them probably see Obama as further left.  O'Reilly would have none of it.  Spot on George.



#WhyLiberalismDoesntWork
It's proponents don't even know what it is!

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There are problems in these times, but, oh, none of them are mine.
- Velvet Underground
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #141 
Dewey - here is a very clear article pointing out Obama's agenda in his speech.  It is clearly far left, especially when you consider that the inaugural speech is usually not one focused on agenda but on higher ideals.  There is no doubt in my mind that he feels completely unbound now to pursue an extremely liberal agenda.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-21/obama-inaugural-s-liberal-definition-of-rights.html

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #142 
Thanks pabar.  I understand many people think he has an extreme liberal agenda, including the Senator.  As usual, I'm just interested in his definition.  For example:

Universal health care, (once championed by the Right) - Far left or left of center?
39.6% top income tax rate - Far left or left of center?
gay rights - Far left or left of center?
women's rights -Far left or left of center?
background checks for gun purchases - Far left or left of center?

I'm always troubled when somebody calls something far left and then fails to define it for me.  Like this:

More State's rights = Right of center   Secession = Far right
lower taxes = right of center    No taxes = Far right

pabar61

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Reply with quote  #143 
Dewey, it's never that simple.  Let's take gay rights.  I think it's obvious by now that I'm pretty conservative.  But I believe that two people who love each other, regardless of gender, should be able to spend the rest of their lives together and have all the same rights no matter what that combination of gender is.  However, the term "marriage" has long been held to mean the union of one man and one woman.  So, if I support equal rights for any two people who want to commit to each other but I want to reserve the term "marriage" for that instance that's between a man and a woman, I regard myself as right of center while I would bet almost all gays and most liberals would paint me as far right.

How about the environment?  I am a strong believer in recycling and protecting open space and I would love to be able to afford solar heating for my home.  But I'm not convinced that the planet is experiencing a long-term warming trend and, even if it is, that it's attributable to human activity.  I also believe that no environmental harm would come from opening up ANWAR.  Again - am I right of center or far right?  It depends on who you ask.

Taxes?  I can't think of one person who espouses that no taxes should be paid.  I think we all need to pay taxes for the general welfare and defense of the country.  But I certainly don't think my taxes should go to causes that obviously espouse left-leaning policies like Planned Parenthood or NPR.  I also don't believe the Constitution contemplated that the government should be involved in education through the Department of Education or the housing market through Fannie or Freddie.  Does that make me right of center or far right?

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #144 
pabar - Not me, I wouldn't call you far right in any of your examples.  If I did, I would define it and tell you where the right of center would be as opposed to the far right position, like I did in my two examples.

Yes, it depends on who you ask but that isn't the point I'm discussing.  I say, when they answer and call you far right, like the Senator used far left today, they owe you a definition.  That's all I'm saying.  I don't use the phrase "far right" because I think it's more derogatory than accurate.  If I use it, I'll explain it.  Far left is simply an attack as opposed to a description, imo.  Otherwise, they could define precisely what they meant. 

PS:  Some organizations will claim income taxes are against the Constitution so we should abolish them.  Yes, this is one of the few things I would call far right.

pabar61

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Reply with quote  #145 
I think you're expecting too much out of our politicians.  Nothing is gained politically without hyperpartisanship and over-the-top name calling.  It wasn't always like this but it certainly is now.  Political gain is all that matters to today's politicians.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #146 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
I think you're expecting too much out of our politicians.  Nothing is gained politically without hyperpartisanship and over-the-top name calling. 


pabar - I'm sure you're right but I've gone beyond politicians and posed the same "definition" question to those here who, on occasion, apply the phrase "far left" to me or President Obama, and I've had little success here too.  I can't recall if you use this particular phrase but, just the same, are you willing to agree with me, regarding the five examples I gave earlier, and say they are "left of center" rather than far left?  Or maybe you prefer to label them far left.  Whatever the case, it would at least give me one man's definition. Thanks.
Wolfpackfan

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Reply with quote  #147 

LOOKS LIKE BILL HASN'T CHANGED

 

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Go Pack!!!!!!!!!!!
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #148 
The rule of thumb for most liberals these days, but especially this admin.

http://www.drudge.tw/11R0MSk



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Susan
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #149 
And we are going to give tanks and F16s to Egypt?

http://www.ow.ly/h3lSI


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Susan
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #150 
sbmom1812 not only are we going to give arms to Egypt, but we will do the same to their ennemies
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