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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #91 
Charlie - My surgeon (a specialist) operates once in the morning three times per week and teaches medical neophytes one hour twice weekly.  He is on the golf course by 2PM whenever he wishes.  He vacations in expensive places two to three weeks each year with his family, not to mention weekends away when he so chooses, and his children go to expensive private schools, and he is paid a tremendous amount.  He recently purchased a vacation home in Nova Scotia because he loves being there with his family.  His "working hard hours" are less than any teacher, so I should assume according to your (and Griz's) "work" logic and attendant pay scale, that he is a real leech on society and doesn't know what "hard work" is ?    Frank

PS - What I draw from your "logical" posts about teachers is that every accountant should have become either a teacher or a medical doctor, not to mention computer engineers who must work very, very hard and put in unbelievable hours  to fit into your concept of "hard work".  In my silly, utopian world where numbers don't say everything, I believe that most people "work hard" at what they do for a living (obviously some don't and that pisses the rest of us off), and that your description of your daughter's attitude toward her chosen career is an example. On the one hand you say that she doesn't know what hard work is, and on the other hand you applaud her work ethic and attitude toward her chosen profession. So she has more "time off" than you (not glued to the desk as much as you) from your viewpoint - and that pisses you off??                                   

When I was a lad, there was a poster of Don Hoke in our locker room (he was third baseman for the Pittsburgh Pirates) and he had his uniform on and was carrying a shovel.  Underneath the picture was the quotation "When I dug ditches, I always dug straight ditches".  When my son and I were shoveling snow, he would become irritated and ask why I always had to make the corners in the snow so exact.  It's because I always dug straight ditches, whether I was laboring in construction or lecturing at university. In my town was a large ad board honoring George Westinghouse.  On it were his picture and the words "His heart was in the work".  A person like that, as most teachers are, knows no hours, nor do they shut off when a holiday occurs. There is only the task!!  And there is only the children.  En loco parentis - how do you judge the hourly rate for a mother or father - and their effectiveness?                                                                                                          

 I think it's more of an attitude toward the task than a matter of number of hours spent at the desk  or a comparison of apples and oranges from occupation to occupation.  In a world with a capitalistic mentality, teachers have no product and can thus never control their economic destinies except through some form of "union", thus no profit margin (although lately states have begun to use a corporate capitalistic model to attempt to judge teachers - something that approaches a time study of task - teach to test, have students regurgitate - have them pass basically factual tests - teacher gets raise - voters are pleased about control) . To apply the capitalistic profit mentality to what teachers do, I feel, is a mistake in judgment.  But so it goes in this "Brave New World with all its wonders in it".

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #92 
Grizzly - The vast majority of households in the poverty level are receiving Government assistance, (food stamps or similar), yes there are more recipients above this level as well.  I just showed how half of those in poverty, who are non-black, likely vote Republican suggesting the buying of votes is a total fabrication.  Ignore the facts if you wish.

Funny, I break down in a very clear way, using Gallup poll and other percentages, facts showing how many votes Romney likely got and a couple of you suggest there are other facts I'm failing to consider.  Grizzly makes a post saying nearly 100% of those receiving food stamps or unemployment, (won't tell me who the other moochers are), vote Democrat and provides no facts or supporting articles.  Not one objection from the Right as to the accuracy.  Odd to say the least.

PS:  Grizzly, you say over half this Country falls into the moocher or parasite category and then you make me guess who you are referring to.  If the poor gaining assistance aren't in your group, who the he** is?  How do you get to 180 million?
woody

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Reply with quote  #93 
Dewey, just admit that those getting handouts tend to vote for Democrats. Next we can discuss whether Democrats use handouts, and union contracts, to insure a voting block. Divide, exploit, and consolidate power. All using other people's money.
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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #94 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Dewey, just admit that those getting handouts tend to vote for Democrats.


woody - I can't.  When I take out the black vote receiving Government assistance, (they voted overwhelmingly for Obama), the numbers resulting and used in my post were much too close to 50/50 to make any legitimate judgment other than one guy was more favored over the other, as is always the case.  When you realize those receiving assistance likely vote at much lower percentages than the rest of the electorate, it tends to suggest such an assumption has little bearing in our election results anyway.  Then when you consider most Government assistance comes at the State level, 30 Republican Governors currently presiding versus 19 Democrats totally destroys such a hypothesis.  However, something tells me I'll keep hearing it presented.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #95 
Again Dewey, please read my last post. Just because you are poor and might be on welfare doesn't make you a moocher. I know people who have been there and worked hard to get out of it.
As I said in another post, I have compassion for those who cannot help themselves and I have disdain for those who simply won't help themselves. Almost 100% of those who WON"T help themselves will vote democrat because that is the party that will pay them (with MY money) not to help themselves. 
If MLP"s (moochers, leeches, and parasites) didn't vote, then the democrats would never win another election.
It's not just the poor who receive government assistance. I include a lot of government workers in the MLP"s.

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #96 
Joisey, my tax dollars are not paying for your surgeon to be playing golf.
My tax dollars ARE paying for a retired 55 year old government worker to play golf.
Please tell us that you already knew that and you were just goofing.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #97 
Griz - No problem !  Remove all government "services" like firemen, policemen, teachers, the guys in the toll booths, etc.  "Cry havoc".  Are you saying that you aren't getting enough of a return on your societal investment?  If you are saying that these occupations should work longer, maybe you have a point (join the legends that maintain that your product costs too much and that your profit share is unfair) , but it is government who cuts off government workers and retires them at 55 or 60 to save money at the top of a salary scale partially determined by time in grade (penny wise and pound foolish).  Are you aware that these "public servants" also pay taxes and have paid taxes for years?
 
Are you aware that they are a part of the micro economy that keeps business in business?  Are you aware that most middle class people work in some capacity for the government?  
If they are living too long for your taste, perhaps you can get a gun from the NRA and do away with them  Also remove our military (costs lots of money) and become more insulated from a world economy because that certainly is costing us many tax dollars.
Personally I would rather reduce taxes by reducing wasteful spending, removing lobbyists, pork barrel legislation, and investigating both blue and white collar welfare.     Frank

PS - Both Parties carry the "moochers" as you call them, both blue and white collar (it's the Washington Way).  You just happen to be a Republican who can see no good in anything Democrat and want to blame them for the ills of our society. I admire your passion but I think it's more the System than the Party.  By the way, all the retirees whom I know who are healthy enough to play golf pay for their own golf, just like real citizens do. Do you think that government employees should ever retire?  If so, when and how?  Sometimes these things are a simple matter of the grass on the other side of the road looking greener.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #98 
Griz - My tax dollars are paying for, and have always paid for your police service, your educational system, your road maintainance, your fire protection, etc.  Damn, I resent you draining my pocketbook.  I could have used all that money for other stuff.      Frank 
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #99 
Joisey, again, don't put words into my mouth. I said before, that government should provide for the things which we cannot provide for ourselves. A military, fire dept, police, roads, bridges, and yes school teachers. I am happy to pay for those things with my taxes.
What I don't want is to pay these people unsustainable wages and pensions. It's that simple. Again, when the teachers unions put millions of dollars into getting someone elected then they get to negotiate their wages, pensions, and benefits with that politician. that is a corrupt system. There should be no government workers unions PERIOD!
I also don't want to pay for someones condoms, abortions, Obamaphone, or welfare check to a drug dealer who won't look for a job.
Frank, you and I could probably agree on a lot of things. Although I don't know as much about corporate welfare as you, I agree that is something that needs to be cut off as well. I don't want government picking winners and losers because it is usually nothing more than money laundering as in the case with Solyndra.

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #100 
...the majority is made up of moochers, parasites, and other government dependent leeches who can vote to take away the fruits of my labor to pay for their inability or unwillingness to provide for their own basic necessities.

Grizzly - My only goal here was to expose your signature line as a totally bogus and foolish conclusion.  Not only is the majority not made up of those folks you try to describe, you went on to include those with the "inability" to meet their needs which seems to contradict many of your subsequent posts.  Admittedly, I am having much difficulty fully understanding what you are trying to say but I have made a clear case that some of your conclusions are beyond belief.  I'll back off now but please note, with all your talk about "buying" votes, it appears you failed to buy one supporting vote who agrees the majority of this Country is made up of moochers, parasites, and leeches.  Take care.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #101 
Dewey when Pelosi's daughter made the video interviewing people in New York waiting in line for what they called "Obamabucks" she asked one able bodied man why he didn't just get a job. He said that he didn't have the ability to get a job because of his police record. 
There you have an "inability" or unwillingness to provide for their own basic necessities. That man will vote for Obama to take the fruits of my labor and deliver Obamabucks to him.
And I know it is normal for democrats but I am not trying to buy anyone's vote here. However you might look at post #68 sbmom and #74spazsdad. There are a couple different people that seem to agree with me. And you can add a couple more to the list as well. Not that it matters.
Also, I have said on numerous posts in this very thread that not all democrats are MLP's but that almost all MLP's vote democrat. Now if the majority is made up of MLP's does that mean that the entire majority are MLP's? No. Some of them are just stupid and don't know any better.
PS how about the person who can't hold a job because he can't stay sober? He has an inability to provide for himself. How about the guy who can't pass a drug test to get a job? He has an inability to provide for himself. Those parasites will take the fruits of my labor to supply their welfare checks.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #102 
Everbody probably knows and has seen multiple generations of families live on welfare when they are very able bodied and could easily work, but its easier just to stay on welfare and vote for the people that enable then.  Politicians pass by it every day in DC going to work.
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Susan
CalRoxMySox44

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Reply with quote  #103 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalRoxMySox44
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Im truly worried if for any second you thought this post sounded the least bit intelligent. You might as well be a racist and post "this is why I hate black people" and it would sound just as ignorant as this thread



What are you referring to? Did a post get deleted or something? What you just posted makes no sense. Please explain what you are talking about.


No, I am referring to this thread. People like the author of this thread and SBMOM are clearly incredibly stupid individuals and I hope their children took away NONE of their awful views. Ignorant individuals like them are poison.

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masare

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Reply with quote  #104 
CoachB25,
Please do NOT think of the minority of the people on misc as the majority! Don't make that mistake! If you want to know what is wrong with education look at the views of grizz who thinks educators owe them something. Their children hear that hate spewing grap and think it means mediocre is good enough because if they fail mommy and daddy will go to school and blame the teacher! Coach these posts are meaningless garbage. Your hard work is valued by an educated public! Thanks!!!
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #105 
Quote:
Originally Posted by masare
CoachB25, Please do NOT think of the minority of the people on misc as the majority! Don't make that mistake! If you want to know what is wrong with education look at the views of grizz who thinks educators owe them something. Their children hear that hate spewing grap and think it means mediocre is good enough because if they fail mommy and daddy will go to school and blame the teacher! Coach these posts are meaningless garbage. Your hard work is valued by an educated public! Thanks!!!

Masare I sure hope reading comprehension is not the subject you teach. Please show me where I have said that ANYONE owes me anything. Much less that the educators owe me anything.
My issue is with moochers like YOU who think I owe YOU a huge pension for working your part time job on the gravy train for 20 years.
And I will guarantee you that mediocrity is not an option with my kids. That is why I don't allow them to be taught by government school teachers who are only there for the money.
My kids are all at a minimum 2 grade levels ahead in every subject compared to their friends in government schools that are the same age. Not to mention they have all found time to learn piano. And the school where my kids are learning so much, doesn't have a union and requires only a fraction (1/3) of the money per student as the crappy government schools down the street.

Masare you lack the ability to debate with any intelligence so you have to resort to calling anything you disagree with "hate speech". Why don't you instead try defending your position rather than try to call me a hater and insult my children?

There, now that you have been b*tch slapped, crawl back under your desk and hide. I am sure you won't have an intelligent response to offer.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #106 
CalRoxMySox44 - you show yourself to be another intolerant liberal.  Anyone who disagrees with you is painted as stupid and awful and ignorant.  As the author of this thread, it is my opinion that the policies espoused by liberals lead to economic failure.  If that makes me stupid in your eyes, then so be it.

Have fun being angry all your life.

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

"Once you open your eyes, it's impossible to be a Democrat." - CJ Pearson
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #107 
pabar61, advocating for responsible government always angers liberals because you are advocating for personal responsibility and thus an end to their freebies.
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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #108 
Griz - I've always respected your posts and views and thought of you as a "nice guy" with views generally different from mine, but that "b-tch slap" epithet combined with "crawl under your desk"  is over the line.  I understand your emotional response to rhetoric that might be aimed at people near and dear to you, but that part of your reply is ignoble and in my mind unworthy of you.  I know, others do it, but in my mind not ol Griz.    Frank
PS - Every liberal that I know advocates personal responsibility.   They also advocate government's "responsibility" to aid the needy and unfortunate.  They also understand that within the current government agency that controls the flow of welfare monies there is too much corruption and waste of taxpayers' monies including their own.  I think that you paint all liberals unfairly with the same brush.  The question remains, "Should government throw out the baby with the bath water?" to curb the waste in that area of government spending of taxpayers' monies.  There are also many such areas that can be explored for corruption and wasteful spending, as well as recipients who are unworthy of the intent of the government service, the "moochers" you speak of who unfairly take advantage of the service itself.  Of course I feel that most educators do not fall under that heading, but you have every right to think that they do, just as someone looking at whatever your occupation is as "stealing from the general public".  In a slanted sense, both perspectives are understandable.          

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #109 
Frank when someone says something about my kids, they are lucky that a b*tch slap is all they get. I will debate my point of view all day but when someone lacks the intellect to debate their position and goes to insult my children, they have crossed a line.
I have said this before but it is worth repeating. The other night my 8 yr old daughter was afraid in her room because she had watched a scary movie. I told her that the meanest monster in the world is a parent protecting his/her kids. So no matter how scared she was, just know that the meanest monster in the world is here to protect her.
You verbally attack my kids, I will tear you apart verbally. You physically attack my kids and I will rip your arm off and beat you with the bloody end. You break into my house and mean to harm one of my kids and you will end up with the back of your head missing. A 9mm hollow point tends to do that when you shoot someone in the forehead.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #110 
Frank, we agree that the system ie safety net was put in place for good reason. We also agree that too many use the safety net as a hammock. So tell me honestly, the moochers, leeches, and parasites aka those in the hammock, what party is it that courts them? Which party encourages the MLP's by offering them a bigger hammock?
I see your point about throwing out the baby with the bath water. But we have to stop encouraging people to depend on government for the sake of buying votes.
Also the service that I provide to customers they can buy it or not. I have competitors in the same business they can go to. But I have no choice but to pay for the "services" of public school teachers even though my kids don't attend public school. I have no choice but to pay the teachers pensions and insurance.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #111 
Griz - All good points, but let's assume that educators get too much money in pay and benefits today, including retirement benefits.  Who determines what is too much or too little?  What is a good teacher worth? A good teacher's influence goes to eternity.  If you can read and understand what I am writing, thank several good teachers. Moreover, if you are a better human being perhaps a good teacher had a major role in the sculpting.   I understand your take on unions, but when I began in education at $2700 per year, it was the unions who got us 11% raises for several years, bringing us up to a reasonable lower middle class living wage, certainly not upper class. Boards of Ed were getting college graduates for as cheap as they could to keep taxes down for political purposes. I made more as a football and basketball coach than I did as a teacher before the unions stepped in (cultural priorities).  Have government unions outlived their usefulness - mostly, but the fear of unfair treatment of workers by management, including government representing voters who scream "keep the costs down", keeps them in business.                                                      

History tells us that most employers are not generous by nature to workers as profit is the one major value under the concept of capitalism and payment to employees is probably the major money drain on profit (remember the era of the Robber Barons before unions?).  What is the solution to that dilemma?  Close public schools?  After that we can get rid of police, firemen, and all other government employees who appear to be "wasting" our "hard earned money".  Again we arrive at a "baby and bathwater solution".  Should government provide education for the masses in a democracy?  If so, what is the solution to what you perceive as just another government agency overspending your tax dollar, and the recipients as just another group of "moochers" who live off your personal donations to big government?  As for your admonition that "liberals" vote "Democrat" to continue their "handouts", from my personal experience in social work, I doubt that many of those folks even vote - or know how to as a result of cultural horizons. Their lives are far less complex than that. They would only react if the check were cut off.  The saddest part is that, as you note,  the system can become recidivistic. It is not as simple as "Why can't they pick themselves up by their bootstraps and claim the American Dream?".  If some wealthy conservative walked into a bar in Newark, New Jersey and spouted "The American Dream", he would be laughed out of town. Cultural horizons are a very important part of how we view reality and thus live our lives.       Frank

PS - What I propose is much, much more oversight from a non partisan group who will look into waste and fairness in all aspects of government agencies.  Of course those who currently benefit from wasteful spending will fight this tooth and nail.  After all, they want to be elected again.  And you and I pay their salaries and benefits.  So it goes in "The Washington Way".

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
masare

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Reply with quote  #112 
Grizz I stand by my comment not directed personally at you...but you can own it. You know very little about me but when I make you angry with my post.... which is a hoot considering all of your propensity for snide comments filled with hate and very little logic...you attack me personally. I get it ...you are angry at everyone who isn't you...your vision is so limited. Hate and insult all you want...you only hurt yourself...I truly feel sorry for you.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #113 
Frank, likewise very good points. I think we both agree that unions were once necessary but have now become too powerful. I had great teachers and I know they were probably under paid since that was so long ago. They loved the kids and it was a labor of love. Things have changed. Think back to your first grade teacher. Can you imagine her holding a protest sign and screaming at the top of her lungs while her and her friends desecrate a Capitol building?
Think of the tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars the teachers unions have to spend on campaign donations. Where does that money come from? Teachers. Where do the teachers get that money? From you and me.
Again, I don't believe that government workers should be allowed to have unions when the politicians they donate to get to determine their salary and pensions.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #114 
Masare instead of always resorting to calling everyone a "hater" how about trying your hand at actually presenting an argument or debating something you disagree with?
Here is an easy one to start with.
Please tell me how our country can sustain your salary, pension, and benefits without going broke?
Why do you think a teacher deserves 30 or 40 years of $67,000 a year pension PLUS health insurance after only 30 years work? Can you justify the numbers without the country going bankrupt?
Take your time and give me a good intelligent response if you can.
By the way, I can get angry, but if you knew me, I am a hoot. I am happy and I have more jokes than you can count. I know that disappoints you but I don't apologize for loving life.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #115 
Here is a perfect example of what those who want to raise taxes don't understand.  When you propose to raise tax rates, people, especially those who are most impacted and most able, will react accordingly to avoid having to pay those additional taxes.  So when you hold other factors, such as general economic growth, constant, raising tax rates has the distinct possibility of lowering tax receipts because of the actions of these and other people.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/01/21/golfer-phil-mickelson-plans-drastic-changes-over-new-tax-rate/


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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #116 
Quote:
People like the author of this thread and SBMOM are clearly incredibly stupid individuals...............Ignorant individuals like them are poison.


Why?......Because you say so?.....
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #117 
It's unfair to single out teachers, because the problem is pension funds backed by public money. Any pension fund, not just teachers pension funds.

Personally I feel teachers should be among the highest paid professions, and education should be a national priority. Instead, every time there is a budget crisis, education funds are first up to be in jeopardy, in part because politicians know they can use that ploy to get higher taxes, then often divert taxes earmarked for education to other purposes.

It's a disgrace that we place so many items ahead of education, because better schools and better educators would decrease the need for many of the programs that eat up so much money. When you pack too many kids into too few classrooms it's impossible for teachers to connect with every student, and too many kids fall through the cracks into crime, drug abuse, pregnancy etc, and put a greater burden on society throughout their lifetimes.

If we could take the money we spend on debt interest and develop meaningful education reform we would be taking a big step toward fixing the social problems that are dragging us down. Unfortunately the debt, like education, doesn't get the focus it warrants, and we continue throwing good money after bad.

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #118 
pabar61, It's been said before, the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money. California has been losing businesses for years because of the tax rates.
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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #119 
Time to take a break. Time off from work makes me bored and I end up on here too much and say things I shouldn't. So I am going to log off for a while.
I have fired some pretty good shots at the liberals on here, so now they all get to take free shots at me without fear of retort.
Fire away folks!
Grizzly out.... for a while.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #120 
Griz - No need for rebuttal from liberals.  Except for your one hairy chest, I can kick your arse post, you have been quite lucid in your posts concerning your stance.  Have a great respite. Enjoy life - it is much too short for any pettiness.     Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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