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1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #151 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns

IF, if, part of your job is to determine these honors, then it is incumbent to have to spend just a little bit of f*cking time to boil these down. Spend the time. Yes, the best players should be honored. The best are the ones who can beat the best.

I would say that the somewhat lighter numbers of the ULL kids in the Pac sort of makes the point.




Exactly. The gaudy Sun Belt numbers have simply not translated to the Pac for Craighton and Sanders.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #152 
D.J. Sanders has had a fine year at Oregon. Has a .993 OPS against the third-toughest schedule in the NCAA.
I guarantee that if you asked her, she would say the opposing pitching day-in and day-out has been much more precise and talented this year than it was last year, when the Cajuns faced the 41st-toughest schedule by RPI metrics and she had a video-game 1.537
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #153 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
D.J. Sanders has had a fine year at Oregon. Has a .993 OPS against the third-toughest schedule in the NCAA.
I guarantee that if you asked her, she would say the opposing pitching day-in and day-out has been much more precise and talented this year than it was last year, when the Cajuns faced the 41st-toughest schedule by RPI metrics and she had a video-game 1.537



Sanders overall batting avg this year is .261, and conference .250.
Craighton's overall batting avg this year is .253 and conference is a horrid .138.

Neither of which are noteworthy on the plus side.  Sanders has done a better job than Craighton, obviously...but the overall numbers are pretty poor compared to their ULL numbers.
scrybe

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Reply with quote  #154 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns

IF, if, part of your job is to determine these honors, then it is incumbent to have to spend just a little bit of f*cking time to boil these down. Spend the time. Yes, the best players should be honored. The best are the ones who can beat the best.

I would say that the somewhat lighter numbers of the ULL kids in the Pac sort of makes the point.



First, potty mouth, I can assure you that I will not be spending one second of my "f*cking time" doing anything but f*cking.

Before you get your panties in a wad, you might set aside your prejudices for once in your life and try understanding someone's else's point of view. I'm not saying that the SEC or Pac 12 does not have more talented and physically gifted players than your typical CAA or Ivy League team. But if a young lady, no matter what conference she represents, puts up numbers that totally dwarf every other player in her league, and those numbers are comparable even to the stats of the P5 teams' top players, that young lady absolutely deserves consideration for POY honors.

A huge majority of the young women who play college softball do so because they love the game, and I would guess that fewer than five percent of those women will ever earn so much as a dollar from playing the sport they love.

So, how about we not limit our recognition of young women to only those who are "good enough" to play in certain P5 conferences or on the professional level? 
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Sanders overall batting avg this year is .261, and conference .250.
Craighton's overall batting avg this year is .253 and conference is a horrid .138.

Neither of which are noteworthy on the plus side.  Sanders has done a better job than Craighton, obviously...but the overall numbers are pretty poor compared to their ULL numbers.


Both very talented kids but predictable stats. Just like Denham @ AZ. 

It was a huge jump for all 3 and their learning curve is short. I'd expect Sanders to show up big time in the tourney. She's that good and most likely will get even better as the season gets interesting. 
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #156 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Both very talented kids but predictable stats. Just like Denham @ AZ. 

It was a huge jump for all 3 and their learning curve is short. I'd expect Sanders to show up big time in the tourney. She's that good and most likely will get even better as the season gets interesting. 


I was hoping for the same for Craighton and Denham...at least Denham has 3 years with Az.😉
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #157 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrybe


First, potty mouth, I can assure you that I will not be spending one second of my "f*cking time" doing anything but f*cking.

Before you get your panties in a wad, you might set aside your prejudices for once in your life and try understanding someone's else's point of view. I'm not saying that the SEC or Pac 12 does not have more talented and physically gifted players than your typical CAA or Ivy League team. But if a young lady, no matter what conference she represents, puts up numbers that totally dwarf every other player in her league, and those numbers are comparable even to the stats of the P5 teams' top players, that young lady absolutely deserves consideration for POY honors.

A huge majority of the young women who play college softball do so because they love the game, and I would guess that fewer than five percent of those women will ever earn so much as a dollar from playing the sport they love.

So, how about we not limit our recognition of young women to only those who are "good enough" to play in certain P5 conferences or on the professional level? 
Because, that is what the award is about. The best in the country. That is why the conferences also have their own awards.

I know, I know.... everyone deserves to get a trophy.

Also, regarding you ascribing dirty words to me....kiss my asterisk
ShepJones1_1

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Reply with quote  #158 
If you listened to the ESPN announcing crew on Monday's Bama/Florida game, they awarded Romanello the Freshaman POY for her outing on Monday against Osorio.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #159 

There are two key "SS"es:

1. Schedule strength

2. Sample size

 

scrybe

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Reply with quote  #160 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Because, that is what the award is about. The best in the country. That is why the conferences also have their own awards.

I know, I know.... everyone deserves to get a trophy.

Also, regarding you ascribing dirty words to me....kiss my asterisk


So, if "that's" what the award is about, we should have a "Best in the Country" award AND a POY award. Everyone else can receive a trophy with "Participant" engraved on the front.

If the POY award was synonymous with Best in the Country, either Paige Parker or Shay Knighten would own the last three.

And, I didn't "ascribe" that dirty word to you. You managed to pull that one out of your own asterisk. [smile]
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #161 
No, neither was POY. On merit, or otherwise.

But they were TOY.

Which is the award that means the most
scrybe

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Reply with quote  #162 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
No, neither was POY. On merit, or otherwise.

But they were TOY.

Which is the award that means the most


Reading comprehension?

If POY WAS synonymous with Best in the Country, Paige and Shay WOULD INDEED own the last three.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #163 




I don't have a box of Cracker Jack to get that decoder ring, so that will be that

 

HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #164 
<< Find it curious the impact on that player's program wouldn't factor into your analysis?? Especially since I find so much of what you post filled with well thought out conclusions. 
Reminds me of Carmello Anthony in the NBA...scores a bunch but nothing to show for it. Not a winner. >> (outofzone)

The debate over whether individual awards (like a Rookie of the Year award, an MVP award or a Cy Young award) should give merit to how a player's team does... has been going on since those awards began. My opinion is that every great player IMPACTS the team they are on VERY MUCH.  The value that a Jocelyn Alo brings to the Sooners is tremendous. Just because the TEAM she plays on was a great team before she arrived - does not change the fact that she has brought a tremendous amount of value to that team.

If Alo had contributed the exact same stats to some team that had finished 10-30 last season... why should that make any difference?

A great player will always make a BIGGER difference (on a W-L record) on a weaker team.
Should you give out additional value (or lesser value) to any player - just because a team was weaker (or stronger)?
My answer to that question - is NO.
If you do so - then it stops being an individual player performance award - and becomes a team based performance award. 

If Alo contributed the exact same stats to Oklahoma - but the team went downhill this season and went 40-15 this season... 
Would that make her personal contribution to the team of less value..?
The answer is NO.
A drop in team performance like that would indicate that many other players on that team performed way below what was expected of them. 
But Alo's performance surely did not cause any part of that drop in team W-L record. Her personal individual value is still THE SAME.

It is my view that team performance should NOT be a determining factor in regard to individual awards.
If some people want to use it as some sort of tie breaker in situations that are basically a dead heat... go ahead.
But the idea that it should be seen as some sort of big meaningful factor in who should win individual awards - is a fallacy, in my view.

It is a very common fallacy that many people buy into... but it is still a fallacy.
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #165 
<< In terms of player impact, what i mean is: 
Would Oklahoma still be Oklahoma without Alo? She is impressive, but OU would still be dominating with or without her. 
Would Arkansas be where they are without Haff? This is the first time they’ve been a ranked team in how long??? 
I was always told that in a “most valuable player” situation, that has to be considered. I’m not saying that i know how they’ll consider it or IF they’ll consider it. I ASKED whether or not it would be a factor. Thank you for your thoughtful answers, Hank! >> (CoachZ)

It seems that that many people have had that same thought knocked into their heads over and over again - by the sports reporters, other fans, coaches, etc...
But just because something is commonly seen one way - that does NOT make it correct.
I say the idea that individual performance awards need to be tied to team performance is wrong.
It is a very common fallacy - and one which is very hard to eradicate.

As to the question of whether or not it will be a factor... I'd guess that for some voters - it will be (perhaps for many or maybe even most).
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #166 

<< I'm a big discounter of 'impact on program' in MVP discussions.... the players' numbers are earned through outcomes, every bit of them.
Put Alo at UF and that offense is saved and they are the No. 1 team in the country.
Put Haff on Oklahoma and she is a spectator this season.
So, impact on program means nothing to me.
The performance is the performance, with proper accounting for the competition the outcomes are earned against. >> (3LT)

Excellent. I agree with all you wrote above.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

<< I will always lean toward the more difficult accomplishment.
While Haff and Beaubien are having AWESOME seasons, you can find like seasons dotted across the freshman landscape through the years.
Alo? 1.600 OPS? 
Oklahoma's SoS has floated upward to 26, so it isn't a joke.And Alo has come through in tight moments, and she is going to hit 25 freaking HRs.
As my DD said.... "That wouldn't be easy off a tee!"As long as Oklahoma has paid its dues check.... even the NFCA couldn't screw this one up. >> (3LT)

Good stuff, 3LT.
But don't be too sure about the NFCA's ability to NOT screw things up.

HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #167 
<< What sort of mealy-mouthed slop is 'identical stats'? >> (3LT)

It's another way of saying - if all things were otherwise equal. 
Nothing "mealy-mouthed" about it.

The point being: If all other things were equal... would you give the award to the player who played tougher competition?
I think your answer is the same as mine... 
And that would be a big fat... YES.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Btw... that was a very interesting detailed look into a Haff vs. Beaubien comparison.
If you carried it out to include ALL of their games (rather than just the top ten), would it change much?
Without doing any of the research, I had guessed that Haff's competition would have been the tougher of the two.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #168 
Well, Hammer the 10th-best RPI for both of them is well into GIMME territory at worse than 100 RPI... so, does after the top 10 really matter?
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #169 
<< The infamous SoS narrative is as overused as a roll of one-ply toilet paper. And that applies equally to POY discussions, RPI and seeding teams for the postseason.
There are several players who would deserve consideration for a freshman player of the year award. But, please, folks, don't bring SoS into the discussion. It's not relevant. >> (scrybe)

I disagree strongly with you, scrybe.
Do you see Katie Prebble as pretty much an equal candidate as Jocelyn Alo for freshman of the year..?
Prebble has more doubles, more triples, more HR, more EBH, more TB, more SB, a higher slugging %... 
and TEN more RBI than Alo.

Their OPS numbers are very similar...
Alo at 1.604,  Prebble at 1.564.

Doesn't the fact that Alo plays much tougher opponents than Prebble make any difference... in your view..?
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #170 

<< There are two key "SS"es:
1. Schedule strength
2. Sample size >> (3LT)


I thought for sure you were going to say  one of them was Sanders.

; )

scrybe

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< The infamous SoS narrative is as overused as a roll of one-ply toilet paper. And that applies equally to POY discussions, RPI and seeding teams for the postseason.
There are several players who would deserve consideration for a freshman player of the year award. But, please, folks, don't bring SoS into the discussion. It's not relevant. >> (scrybe)

I disagree strongly with you, scrybe.
Do you see Katie Prebble as pretty much an equal candidate as Jocelyn Alo for freshman of the year..?
Prebble has more doubles, more triples, more HR, more EBH, more TB, more SB, a higher slugging %... 
and TEN more RBI than Alo.

Their OPS numbers are very similar...
Alo at 1.604,  Prebble at 1.564.

Doesn't the fact that Alo plays much tougher opponents than Prebble make any difference... in your view..?


If you carried that argument to the logical conclusion, you would have to surmise that a few freshmen in the SEC and Pac have numbers that are as good or, in some cases, better than Alo's (minus the HRs). So wouldn't it, then, stand to reason that one of these SEC/Pac'ers should win the award, since they play "much tougher" opponents week in and week out in their elite conferences?
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #172 
omg...it's never ending with you girls!
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #173 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron

<< There are two key "SS"es:
1. Schedule strength
2. Sample size >> (3LT)


I thought for sure you were going to say  one of them was Sanders.

; )

Fantastic. That deserves a wow
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrybe


If you carried that argument to the logical conclusion, you would have to surmise that a few freshmen in the SEC and Pac have numbers that are as good or, in some cases, better than Alo's (minus the HRs). So wouldn't it, then, stand to reason that one of these SEC/Pac'ers should win the award, since they play "much tougher" opponents week in and week out in their elite conferences?
It was already written that Oklahoma's SoS is 26.... a drag for a top 8 as of now, but certainly a respectable number.

I mean, yeah, if Mary Iakopo had 18 HRs, I would argue you maybe.


HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #175 
<< Well, Hammer the 10th-best RPI for both of them is well into GIMME territory at worse than 100 RPI... so, does after the top 10 really matter? >> (3LT)

One thing that could make a detailed look into those two excellent freshmen pitchers even better... 
would to be basing it on their opponent's OPS stats (or scoring stats)... rather than RPI.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #176 
Then you have to dig into what pitching they did -- or didn't -- build up that number against.

You can do it.... way too dense for me, those woods
scrybe

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Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough
omg...it's never ending with you girls!


LOL!! (Is that you, mom?)
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #178 
<< If you carried that argument to the logical conclusion, you would have to surmise that a few freshmen in the SEC and Pac have numbers that are as good or, in some cases, better than Alo's (minus the HRs). So wouldn't it, then, stand to reason that one of these SEC/Pac'ers should win the award, since they play "much tougher" opponents week in and week out in their elite conferences? >> (scrybe)

If you check back... I picked Jordan over Alo earlier this year - precisely because UCLA plays tougher competition than Oklahoma. And I picked Haff over Beaubien for that same reason (but now, 3LT is making a case that perhaps Haff's competition is not better than Beaubien's). 

The point is that the level of competition does matter. And if someone wants to do the best job they can in selecting one FOY candidate over another - they need to make a real effort to find out the different levels of competition those candidates have faced... and then try and figure out HOW MUCH that factor should influence their decision.
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #179 
<< omg...it's never ending with you girls! >> (Janie)

You CAN choose to skip over posts if they are not your cup of tea, Janie.

; )
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #180 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< If you carried that argument to the logical conclusion, you would have to surmise that a few freshmen in the SEC and Pac have numbers that are as good or, in some cases, better than Alo's (minus the HRs). So wouldn't it, then, stand to reason that one of these SEC/Pac'ers should win the award, since they play "much tougher" opponents week in and week out in their elite conferences? >> (scrybe)

If you check back... I picked Jordan over Alo earlier this year - precisely because UCLA plays tougher competition than Oklahoma. And I picked Haff over Beaubien for that same reason (but now, 3LT is making a case that perhaps Haff's competition is not better than Beaubien's). 

The point is that the level of competition does matter. And if someone wants to do the best job they can in selecting one FOY candidate over another - they need to make a real effort to find out the different levels of competition those candidates have faced... and then try and figure out HOW MUCH that factor should influence their decision.
word-for-word
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