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Dewey

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Kareem Abdul Jabbar says ISIS terrorists are not Islamist.  Conservatives point to the fact they call themselves such as proof he's wrong.

Many Conservatives say Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney, and Sen. McCain are not Conservatives despite the fact all claim they are.


What is the truth here and how can we tell?  Must one be Conservative to know what is true?
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #2 
Dewey - If you are a follower of Islam, you're an Islamist IMO. Are they representative of all Islamist? I doubt it. ISIS would probably say Jabbar isn't Islamic. They'd be wrong too.

Conservatism is relative. Bush, Romney, and McCain are conservative compared to you, for instance, but not compared to Ted Cruz or some on this board.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #3 
Yeah, so does Obama and others.

However, ISIS themselves follow a very strict interpretation of the Quran that allows them all of these atrocities.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar might think they don't follow his version of Islam, but they follow Islam.  They kill all the other Islamists as well.

It's like when the Catholics and Protestants were fighting - you can't say neither was Christian.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #4 
bhblue - TMI. I simply want you to tell me which is true...in your opinion. Is ISIS Islamist and is Jeb Bush a Conservative?
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #5 

Not all are directly connected to Kevin Bacon. Some are six degrees removed. Thus I think you can be up to six steps removed from your faith and/or political platform and still be adjudged to be referred to as Islamic, Republican or whatever.

 

 


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Dewey

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Bill - I was aiming to make a simple point. Those who deny Jeb Bush is a Conservative, and those who deny ISIS is Islamist, could be dead on. That is unless Conservatives must be the arbiters of truth.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #7 
Mine was obvious attempt at humor. Not that I should rename you Diet Pepsi, but...come on. However, there is always truth in humor. My point would be there is always degrees of commitment to a cause and thus, disagreement as to whether someone actually represents the agenda of the detractor. My suggestion delineates a formula. A Muslin or Republican should only be six degrees removed or their bacon is burnt.

Sorry I didn't make it down to Fullerton. Brother's wife was sick, so was mine. Better to say like the Cubs, "Next year." (Is it too early for Chicago fans to admit?)

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #8 
Bill - Hey, I got it. I was simply clarifying my intentions before we got too deep into this. I love the six degrees of Bacon. Now I'm sitting in a sports bar, (too early for beer and no SEC channel on the TV's), watching my DGD's play and my phone is dying fast. Sorry to hear about your sick family members but I'm going to hold you to that Fullerton visit. Just hope you're not waiting for UCS approval. :-)
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #9 
Real - Anger, anger, anger !!!!!!!!  It's not the romantic ballads that we were conned with.  [wave]
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #10 
Anger is not a negative, joisey you need a red bull.
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Kareem Abdul Jabbar says ISIS terrorists are not Islamist.  Conservatives point to the fact they call themselves such as proof he's wrong.

Many Conservatives say Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney, and Sen. McCain are not Conservatives despite the fact all claim they are.


What is the truth here and how can we tell?  Must one be Conservative to know what is true?


Is it possible that these are all opinions not subject to a strict true/false conclusion?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #12 
Real - PREMISE:  "Anger is not a negative".  Believe that, and whatever follows is the result of dogma if accepted as an absolute.  One can argue that aspects of anger are actually positive, but then. . .  there is the dark side.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #13 
pabar - Absolutely. If ones opinion is these terrorists are not Islamic, then there's no reason to label them as such. Those overly offended that Obama won't use this terminology should heed your post.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #14 
These terrorists are islamists
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #15 
Anger CAN be a positive and anger CAN be a negative, generalities cannot label anger.

 Terrorists can be Islamists, ISIS are Islamists because they say they are Islamists.  If someone claimed to be Christian, Buddhist or Hindu wouldn't they be such even if obama said they weren't Christian, Buddhist or Hindu?  obama is not the end all, be all of who are Islamists.  He is islamist himself and these islamist don't fit the definition of HIS islam.  He hates to label these murderers islamists but he is a truther.  Just like there are many types of Christians.  Just because Catholics think they are the truest of all Christians, doesn't make them so.  obama doesn't get to decide that ISIS is not islamists if the y say they are.

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
pabar - Absolutely. If ones opinion is these terrorists are not Islamic, then there's no reason to label them as such. Those overly offended that Obama won't use this terminology should heed your post.


But that's not the point you were making and you know it.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #17 
Dewey - Just now able to respond. It's March so I have work on the weekends. My simple answer since you won't accept a more nuanced one is neither is true. How's that?

kir - I thought Libs like nuanced answered.
Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #18 
But, But, But.....All those nasty Tea Party members are racist.



The sword cuts both ways.

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If we are not careful, our colleges will produce a group of close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists, consumed with immoral acts. - Dr. Martin Luther King


“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.” Winston S. Churchill


Dewey

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Reply with quote  #19 
bhblue - Thanks.  You know, over the years I've presented many questions that went unanswered.  I suppose nuanced would have been better than no answer but, in this instance, I had a gut feeling you had a clear position as to whether you considered ISIS to be Islamic and/or Jeb to be Conservative.  Thanks for sharing.

Btw, Obama doesn't consider ISIS to be Islamic either and the fact this changes from individual to individual indicates these labels are more opinion than true/false facts.  This is precisely the point I wanted to make despite what pabar suggests.
Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
bhblue - Thanks.  You know, over the years I've presented many questions that went unanswered.  I suppose nuanced would have been better than no answer but, in this instance, I had a gut feeling you had a clear position as to whether you considered ISIS to be Islamic and/or Jeb to be Conservative.  Thanks for sharing.

Btw, Obama doesn't consider ISIS to be Islamic either and the fact this changes from individual to individual indicates these labels are more opinion than true/false facts.  This is precisely the point I wanted to make despite what pabar suggests.



Or you just didn't like the answer so you re-worded your question.


I asked you a question about Common Core that you just ignored......

__________________
If we are not careful, our colleges will produce a group of close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists, consumed with immoral acts. - Dr. Martin Luther King


“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.” Winston S. Churchill


bluedog

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Reply with quote  #21 
Common core is poison!!!
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #22 
So obama is no more intelligent than this forum

"Btw, Obama doesn't consider ISIS to be Islamic either and the fact this changes from individual to individual indicates these labels are more opinion than true/false facts."

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Posts: 23,603
Reply with quote  #23 
So Mr. Smith is not an atheist just because he says he is?
 Joisey is not agnostic/atheist just because he says he is?  
pabar and mikec are not Christian just because they say they are? 
woody is not a Catholic just because he says he is?
obama's opinion can change all that?

Those are all opinions?  I can call them all Mormons if I choose because it's my opinion?
 

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #24 
"Jeb Bush, Sen. McCain, and Mitt Romney are not Conservatives despite what they say.  Gov. Christie and Sen. Graham are not true Republicans by any stretch of the imagination.  You do know we came up with term RINO?"


It was Conservatives who sparked me to start this thread.  I think it's important to illustrate how often they criticize others for something many of them practice all the time.  Maybe they can explain to the readers why they deserve the final say on both labeling and determining who should be identified in a particular way.  In other words, who are they to criticize President Obama for his refusal to identify these terrorists as "Islamic" when they do exactly the same thing with regards to many of our right leaning politicians?  RINO's etc.  Who gave Conservatives the sole right to have an opinion as to how others identify themselves?  How do they so easily dismiss those who say they are Conservative and then turn right around and criticize Obama for doing similarly?  It's simply another inconsistency practiced by many on the Right and I found it well worth exposing.

I was told by pabar that maybe I should consider these "identification" labels to be the opinions of President Obama, and the Conservatives who use them, and not so much as true/false facts.  This makes much more sense.  Clearly the President doesn't believe these terrorists are true Muslims any more than many here believe Jeb Bush is a true Conservative.  Differing opinions aren't surprising but suggesting only one side is deserving of having them, well that's clearly absurd.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
"Jeb Bush, Sen. McCain, and Mitt Romney are not Conservatives despite what they say.  Gov. Christie and Sen. Graham are not true Republicans by any stretch of the imagination.  You do know we came up with term RINO?"


It was Conservatives who sparked me to start this thread.  I think it's important to illustrate how often they criticize others for something many of them practice all the time.  Maybe they can explain to the readers why they deserve the final say on both labeling and determining who should be identified in a particular way.  In other words, who are they to criticize President Obama for his refusal to identify these terrorists as "Islamic" when they do exactly the same thing with regards to many of our right leaning politicians?  RINO's etc.  Who gave Conservatives the sole right to have an opinion as to how others identify themselves?  How do they so easily dismiss those who say they are Conservative and then turn right around and criticize Obama for doing similarly?  It's simply another inconsistency practiced by many on the Right and I found it well worth exposing.

I was told by pabar that maybe I should consider these "identification" labels to be the opinions of President Obama, and the Conservatives who use them, and not so much as true/false facts.  This makes much more sense.  Clearly the President doesn't believe these terrorists are true Muslims any more than many here believe Jeb Bush is a true Conservative.  Differing opinions aren't surprising but suggesting only one side is deserving of having them, well that's clearly absurd.


There is a huge difference in your Conservative/Islam narrative.  Conservatives don't have a Koran.  ISIS, as was clearly shown in The Atlantic piece, closely follows the teachings of the Koran.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #26 
pabar - Your logic escapes me.  Jeb Bush and Sen. McCain closely follow Conservative ideals.  Not sure where you are going with that last post but you're probably going to have to do a whole lot more than that to explain to readers why Conservatives deserve to dismiss how others label themselves but Progressives do not.  Appears to be a clear double standard.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #27 
Yep dewy's back, telling us we aren't doing enough for the readers.  
We were doing plenty enough for the readers in your latest absence while your tee-tee hurt dewy.
 
pabar definitely has been doing his share 'for the readers', he doesn't disappear when he gets his feelings hurt [or when he gets thrashed in an election, like your posse did]

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Posts: 11,035
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
pabar - Your logic escapes me.  Jeb Bush and Sen. McCain closely follow Conservative ideals.  Not sure where you are going with that last post but you're probably going to have to do a whole lot more than that to explain to readers why Conservatives deserve to dismiss how others label themselves but Progressives do not.  Appears to be a clear double standard.


Let's go back to your original post:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar says ISIS terrorists are not Islamist.  Conservatives point to the fact they call themselves such as proof he's wrong.

Many Conservatives say Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney, and Sen. McCain are not Conservatives despite the fact all claim they are.


What is the truth here and how can we tell?  Must one be Conservative to know what is true?

First, which conservatives have made this point about KAJ?  I never read anything about that.  

Second, yes, many of us do not believe that Bush, Romney and McCain represent Conservative principles.  We can point to many of their words and actions to support such a position.  I'm not going to do that here but you can rest assured that, if challenged, it would be no problem.

Third, the point of your original post was to point to a double standard.  My most recent post attempts to disprove your point.  KAJ saying ISIS is not Islamic flies in the face of what the Atlantic article clearly proved.  Their actions and words are completely consistent with the teachings in the Koran.  Yes, it's his opinion but there is a document to which we can all point that shows the clear ties between ISIS and Islam.  

With conservatism, it's all opinion and perspective.  I have made the point ad nauseum that the entire political landscape has shifted to the left.  The Democrats of the sixties through the early nineties have become radical.  The Republicans of that same time period, who mostly followed Conservative principles (limited government, strong military) have now become Progressive.  Today's Conservative is called radical by the mainstream media because the two political parties have moved to the left.  The perspective has changed.

I was on the beach here in Cali this morning with my wife and I asked her, as we looked toward the ocean, which way we thought Hawaii was.  We both thought it was slightly to our left because on a map of the world, Hawaii is more southern than where we are.  But it occurred to me that if we were on a south-facing beach, as many beaches in California are, then Hawaii would be to our right.  It's all a matter of perspective.




Dewey

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Reply with quote  #29 
pabar - Articles don't "prove" anything. They support an opinion. I'll stand by the original point of my post. Progressives have no right to dismiss how another individual or group identifies itself. That right, in the minds of many Conservatives, lies only with those on their side. Something tells me few here will accept such a notion and, hopefully, next time they hear Obama criticized for not saying "Islamic", they'll recall this double-standard.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #30 
You're carrying it too far.  Nobody is saying someone doesn't have a right to hold an opinion.  We just disagree about those opinions.
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