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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #151 
softballfanatic - Let me close with this because I've got to leave for a bit.  I've heard many Conservatives rightfully say we are all concerned about helping the poor.  I'm interested in a few scenarios of who those poor would be in our society today that are deserving of some help.
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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
softballfanatic - Thanks for your answer.  You would require a second job be taken and no food stamps for any working families who fell short of the poverty income level.  You may be representative of a majority of Conservatives but many on my side would be concerned for the children if the father failed to find a second job to earn additional money.  Appreciate your input.


Dewey--The "father" earns $8.17 an hour at his primary job. I would venture to say that he is fairly unskilled labor. If he cannot find an $8 per hour night job or even $6 and work six hours, he is not trying to help himself. I would also venture to say that the "mother" does not need to find a skilled labor job. I would also say that those jobs are there to be had for those who want them. Especially with the increase in companies reducing weekly hours per employee to avoid Obamacare, there are more jobs available that would pay in that range. These people need to help themselves before the government (actually the taxpayers) do. In your example one assumes that the "parents" are capable of working unskilled labor jobs. This is an example of the moving goalposts that the liberals have. They appear to be constantly looking for reasons to hand out my tax dollars to others instead of looking to add qualifiers to become eligible. We should not be making it easier to get assistance, we should be making it harder. Just like Obama "relaxed" the standard to qualify! Especially with the government budget in such disarray, or lack of budget should I say.

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
B10IS1

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Reply with quote  #153 
I do alot of volunteer work at a place that helps those in need with a food pantry, clothing, school supplies, utilites, gasoline cards & fresh milk vouchers if have large family, etc.
The problem I see more & more is single mothers raising children by themselves. i have been volunteering for almost 5 years & see many that have been coming every month for 3-4-5 years. That's ok by me, but a number of them have more kids now than they did before & still single.
The number of children without fathers is very sad & seems to be a problem our country is not facing up to.
Not to sound too harsh, but we instead enable it with more & easier welfare .
Even at the organization I help at [ faith based ] a woman comes in with more kids she gets more groceries in her monthly basket.
The other thing I see more & more of is a grandmother, daughter, grand-daughter, all qualifying for food & clothing. They come together many times in one car & all get a monthly allocation for 3 families.
When I first started doing this, we served around 200 families per month in 2008, we now serve about 550...it is sad.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #154 
B10ISI - Do you feel like an enabler when you volunteer to help?  I don't think you are.

softballfanatic - I'm simply trying to understand which poor the Conservatives are willing to help Government money?  Who qualifies if any?  We both want to help the poor but we need to come to an agreement as to who qualifies as poor.  That's where I was going with the question.  Thanks.

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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
B10ISI - Do you feel like an enabler when you volunteer to help?  I don't think you are.

softballfanatic - I'm simply trying to understand which poor the Conservatives are willing to help Government money?  Who qualifies if any?  We both want to help the poor but we need to come to an agreement as to who qualifies as poor.  That's where I was going with the question.  Thanks.


Dewey--Not answering for B101SI, but from my perspective it is apples and oranges in a sense. The money that was donated to purchase the goods for this support was a "choice" made by the donors to help those deemed in need by this organization. I did not "donate" my tax dollars. They were taken from me to operate the government in providing for the people as dictated by the Constitution. All not dictated by the Constitution fall to the states. That is the difference.

I can't tell you specifically where that line is. But in the scenario you presented, there are too many available options that should come before federal assistance. Family and local charities should come first followed by state aid, then federal aid IMHO. The govt. want to be Big Brother and take care of everyone. Not their responsibility. 

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #156 
softballfanatic - If I presented a scenario of a single parent with three small children, some might say, yeah, here we need to provide some assistance.  Then if you throw in a second parent, all bets are off.  You can probably see where this heads if a parent thinks his family is in serious need.  Time to leave home and let the other spouse qualify.  There are many complex scenarios just like these that you and I could discuss to great lengths.  My feeling is we've tweaked most of these problems for decades now and have surely addressed these many different possibilities to some extent.  I'm not suggesting we stop but I'm saying there are likely very good reasons as to how our programs are set up.  I think if it weren't for our unfortunate financial collapse, the focus on the poor would be so much less.  In fact, I can't recall a hint of objection from any of my Conservative friends when President Bush expanded the food stamp program under the Farm Bill Act.  Helping the poor is a complex problem to say the least.

PS:  I understand the difference in where money comes from in volunteer centers versus the taxpayers but I was looking at it from the perspective of the poor.  Are they equally hurt getting assistance from volunteer donations as they are from Government subsidies?


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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #157 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
softballfanatic - If I presented a scenario of a single parent with three small children, some might say, yeah, here we need to provide some assistance.  Then if you throw in a second parent, all bets are off.  You can probably see where this heads if a parent thinks his family is in serious need.  Time to leave home and let the other spouse qualify.  There are many complex scenarios just like these that you and I could discuss to great lengths.  My feeling is we've tweaked most of these problems for decades now and have surely addressed these many different possibilities to some extent.  I'm not suggesting we stop but I'm saying there are likely very good reasons as to how our programs are set up.  I think if it weren't for our unfortunate financial collapse, the focus on the poor would be so much less.  In fact, I can't recall a hint of objection from any of my Conservative friends when President Bush expanded the food stamp program under the Farm Bill Act.  Helping the poor is a complex problem to say the least.

PS:  I understand the difference in where money comes from in volunteer centers versus the taxpayers but I was looking at it from the perspective of the poor.  Are they equally hurt getting assistance from volunteer donations as they are from Government subsidies?



Maybe, but they are a private organization and it is not the business of the govt. or I to interfere. Additionally, the private company would have its own criteria to determine recipients (or not) and to discontinue providing, as they see fit. Their business not mine, nor IMHO, the business of the govt.! Thus one major difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals appear to believe that govt. should be the primary caretaker and problemsolver for the world and conservatives don't.

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #158 
softballfanatic - I don't see it that way.  I think there are poor out there who desperately need the support of society.  I think my view is no different than those who volunteer and serve the poor, (well it is different because I would never equate giving money as being equivalent to services volunteered), but I think you get the point.  I don't feel I'm an enabler any more than the person filling the dish of a poor person in a community center.  I admit, I'm willing to see us use taxpayer money because I don't believe our private community can begin to address all of those in need, but the goal remains the same.  Maybe that's unacceptable to many but, like the wonderful Churches and community services, many of us do understand there are many people out there needing help and I, for one, will back such support politically.  It's not an uncommon position to want to help those in need.  Of course, and not unlike the private community, any attempt to help the poor is going to capture some not so deserving.  Just the same, I don't think we can let this one fact stop our efforts.  Now it's movie time.  Have a nice afternoon.
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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #159 
So it's official, the left are not interested in welfare reform and since they have nothing to add to the topic, they should stay away.  Kind of an oxymoron, if they really wanted welfare reform, they would want smaller government.  Have you ever seen a leftist for smaller government? 

The new obama welfare policy banner has been unveiled.


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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #160 
Dewey "I dont believe our private community and all those in need..."  Dewey, who the he// do you think pays for it now?  We pay for it triple.  We pay the money to pay to the poor, we pay the govt workers that enable the programs and we still pay privately!    Wake up.  Where does the govts money come from?!!!!
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Susan
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #161 
When the movie is over dewey, tell me why this doesn't make sense to you.  Sounds like if you cared about people, the economy and our money, a drug free recipient would be a win, win, win.  You probably don't like the idea because you know OUR money is being used to pay for their drug habits. Enabling at its finest.


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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #162 


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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
B10IS1

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Reply with quote  #163 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
B10ISI - Do you feel like an enabler when you volunteer to help?  I don't think you are.

softballfanatic - I'm simply trying to understand which poor the Conservatives are willing to help Government money?  Who qualifies if any?  We both want to help the poor but we need to come to an agreement as to who qualifies as poor.  That's where I was going with the question.  Thanks.
I guess where I see the problem is why do the single mothers have more babies, even when they know they can't afford them or support them. Why am I seeing more & more single women with more & more kids?
Why do I see 3 generations of a family getting aid.
I wonder if these are learned behaviors ? Are we really helping them by giving them more? When they seem to be doing the same thing.
Do I feel like an enabler? In some cases I have to wonder...almost like giving a case of Bud to a person with a drinking problem
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #164 
Just watched the Ryan interview on last week's Meet The Press.  He surprisingly said this:

Meet the Press host David Gregory pressed Ryan for an example of spending cuts he'd make that would stop the “takers” in society. Ryan said during the presidential campaign that America risked becoming a nation of “makers” who work and “takers” dependent upon government assistance. “Food Stamps, for example,” Ryan replied, “if our reforms went through, they would have grown by 260 percent over the last decade instead of 270 percent. So when you call such reforms 'savage,' that, I think, does a disservice to the quality of debate we need to have.

He went on to say the GOP simply wants to end the benefits for those undeserving.  Geez, our side wants to do that as well and if it saves us this 10 percent growth, that's great.  Not sure why the Hannity's of this world are calling this President the "food stamp" President if we're really on the same page.  It seems we beat this subject to death for no apparent reason.  Like I said before, the GOP really needs to get their messages out there loud and clear.

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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #165 
B10 they are learned behaviors and generstions have grown up on welfare.  Ive seen it first hand.  Alot of it is right under the politicians noses in DC if they chose to look.  Most of the time they pay more for more kids, so single moms have more kids


Dewey Ryan is not exactly a budget hawk, but he is better than Obama.  He probably didnt want that to come out as the conservative base would not have been too happy.

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Susan
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #166 
dewey, up front I want to say you don't have to answer if you don't want to.  I don't answer many times to prevent the tit for tat that goes along with answering many of your questions.  You pick and dissect someone's answer and go about it by asking 15 more questions in the aftermath.  I may comment on your answer but I will not ask you another question.  My question is this.

If I have to piss clean to be able to perform my job [and keep it] and donate to those who will not get up off their asses and work, then why shouldn't they have to piss clean to receive 'my' money through government assistance? 

  For the life of me I can think of no good reason.  The lack of responsibility in this country is what we continuously point out and you continuously defend.

side note:  you focus a lot of your welfare reform talk on 'food stamps' (SNAP), the burr under my saddle is TANF, and it's qualifications

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
dewey, up front I want to say you don't have to answer if you don't want to.  I don't answer many times to prevent the tit for tat that goes along with answering many of your questions.  You pick and dissect someone's answer and go about it by asking 15 more questions in the aftermath.  I may comment on your answer but I will not ask you another question.  My question is this.

If I have to piss clean to be able to perform my job [and keep it] and donate to those who will not get up off their asses and work, then why shouldn't they have to piss clean to receive 'my' money through government assistance? 

side note:  you focus a lot of your welfare reform talk on 'food stamps' (SNAP), the burr under my saddle is TANF, and it's qualifications


keepinitreal - To your first question, I would say no to drug testing and use individual rights, privacy rights, and the fact I can see little to gain, particularly based on some research done to date similar to Florida who stopped the drug testing I believe, and much to lose, not the least of which is the added humiliation heaped upon the poor.  I see no safety reasons for drug testing, which might apply in your case, and it probably opens the door to similar attitudes in many other parts of our society.  I would suspect some of our friends on the Right, like you, would worry it may become part of the gun purchase background check.

What little I've researched on TANF it appears to be a very small percentage of people where States have the primary authority on the level of benefits they deem warranted.  Regardless, abuse needs to be addressed as best as one can. 

Because TANF is a federal/state program and each state sets its own eligibility standards, benefits vary widely. As you might expect, benefits in Southern states run by Republicans are far more meager than those in Northern and Western states where Democrats govern. In 2011, benefits ranged from a low of $170 a month for a single-parent family of three in Mississippi to a high of $753 for the same family living in New York. TANF spending was set at $16.5 billion per year in the 1996 bill, where it has remained—without any adjustment for inflation—ever since.

sbmom - I heard one on the left suggest Ryan was lying but, since I hate the word lie as it's overused with politicians, we'll use uninformed or mistaken about his campaign reforms intending to grow food stamps by 260% over the decade vs the Dem's plan of 270%.  What do you think I should believe?  Did they plan on funding food stamps to this degree? 

PS:  To both of you, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you never have to answer my questions either.  That said, I may repeat the question and/or ask more.  I'm not going to learn much about your political positions if I don't.  Coupled with that, I never know if and when the questions are totally overlooked or missed altogether.  People come and go all the time.  Sometimes, just noting the dismissal makes the case stronger, imo.  Many threads start out asking, what do you Libs think of this?  We all do it.

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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #168 
dewey, I would not be surprised at all if his version of food stamps increased by that much.  As I said Ryans Budget is not exactly hawkish.  If you really looked at it vs accepting the liberal rag reports you might see.  But as I said some conservatives werent real happy, but much better than Obama.
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #169 
sbmom - Thank you.  I agree with you and previously noted his budget had no date set to be balanced.  During the campaign I wanted our readers to understand our debt would climb each and every year for an entire eight year Romney term in order to dampen some of the Obama criticism.   Romney/Ryan refused to include revenues and were smart enough to know you can't balance a budget on spending cuts alone.  Thus a balanced budget was beyond reach in any near term.  Unfortunately, his cuts were still too much considering his refusal to accept any tax revenues, and his Medicare plan was unpopular.
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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
cloejackson

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Reply with quote  #170 

I know not everybody is a fan of welfare existing, or food stamps or public assistance of any kind. Be that as it may, welfare advocates are not having their trigger helped by the rash of welfare card withdrawals at places like casinos, strip clubs and bars over the years. Legislation is trying to suppress it, but the practice is still happening.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #171 
welcome to the board cloe.  You will get a kick out of reading this thread from page 1.  We know the abuse exists but only one side wants the abuse curtailed. 
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
cloejackson

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Reply with quote  #172 

Thanks keepinitreal, theres a lot of opinion in this forum but we should respect what they want to say. I think it wil depend on how they are using the welfare card.

sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #173 
Welcome cloe.

 Some more good stuff on welfare.  So basically we are inviting mexicans to come get the dole.

http://www.bit.ly/Y28Pc3


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Susan
cloejackson

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Reply with quote  #174 

Hi there, thanks. So there will be more help for those who really needs the welfare card. That would be a good news for them.

sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #175 
Cloe I believe there is a law that immigrants are not spposed to be granted status if they are an automatic burden to the state.  But, it is exactly what dems want buying a voter base.
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Susan
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #176 
Here's one way to eliminate the pork.  This stuff ain't rocket science.

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #177 
Plenty more here.


112th Congress YouCut: Phase II Legislation

Each week, the public votes on which items should be included in the YouCut program; click on the link below to track the YouCut legislation from the 112th Congress.

Week One: Terminate U.S. Contributions to the United Nations Population Fund

Week Two: Terminate the Federal Railroad Administration’s Funding of High-Speed Rail Projects

Week Three: Reduce the number of Federal Employees by 10 Percent through attrition

Week Four: Terminate Funding for Comparative Effectiveness at the AHRQ

Week Five: Refocus National Park Service Spending on National Parks

Week Six: Eliminate Cell Phone Subsidies in the Universal Service Fund

Week Seven: Repeal the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Program

Week Eight: Eliminate the Science To Achieve Results Program

Week Nine: Enforce Restrictions Excluding Illegal Aliens From Refundable Tax Credits

Week Ten: Eliminate the Ready To Learn Television Program

Week Eleven: Terminate National Science Foundation Grants for Arctic Research

Week Twelve: Terminate the Weatherization Assistance Program

Week Thirteen: Suspend Federal Land Purchases

Week Fourteen: Terminate HUD's HOPE VI Program

Week Fifteen: Terminate Federal Programs that Pay People to Volunteer

Week Sixteen: Stop Rewarding States for Recruiting Additional Food Stamp Recipients

Week Seventeen: Stop Mine Cleanup Payments to States that Already Completed the Cleanups

Week Eighteen: Terminate a Program that Pays Farmers for Conservation Improvements

Week Nineteen: Reduce Number of Non-Essential Vehicles Purchased or Leased by Agencies

Week Twenty: Terminate a DOL Office that Focuses on Labor Problems in Foreign Countries

Week Twenty One: Reduce Funding for Poor Performing Grantees in the CSBG Program

Week Twenty Two: Terminate loan guarantees for speculative alternative technology ventures like Solyndra

Week Twenty Three: Reduce Census Bureau data collection that is beyond the Constitutional mandate

Week Twenty Four: Reduce the number of TSA agents by increasing the efficiency of airport security screening



112th Congress YouCut Legislation

Each week, the public votes on which items should be included in the YouCut program.

Week One: End Duplicative Government Printing

Week Two: End the Presidential Election Fund ($520 Million Savings)

Week Three: Obtain Refund of U.N. Tax Equalization Fund ($180 Million Savings)

H.R. 1 - The Continuing Resolution

Week Four: Terminate the Neighborhood Stabilization Fund (Approximately $1 Billion in Savings)

Week Five: Reduce DoD Printing/Reproduction Budget (Approximately $180 Million in Savings)

Week Six: Repeal the $17 Billion "Prevention and Public Health Fund" Created in the 2010 Health Care Law ($17 Billion in Savings)

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #178 

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #179 

15 kids and "somebody" needs to pay. Wow, just Wow
And the cycle will continue.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #180 
spazdad - I think we all know the problem when 15 kids are involved.  Now, what LEGAL solution would you propose for situations like this?  Also, what is the solution to White Collar Welfare?  Both contain obvious wastes of my tax dollar.  I do, however, believe in a governmental "hand up" for the less fortunate but not when the less fortunate recklessly has 15 children or ten, or five.  What becomes of those unfortunate victim children, especially if several are non adoptable for various reasons?  There is an entire concept of responsibility missing when a mother of 15 says, "Somebody needs to care for these children".                    

  How about tubes tied after two children or lose all Welfare money?  At present I believe that is illegal, but I think it should be legalized or have anti abortion people adopt the children and raise them.  As a former social worker I have seen the results of a lack of any personal responsibility (and the reverse). I once had a client with eleven children by eleven different fathers.  One child was physically non-adoptable.  I wonder what became of that child who had his diaper changed only when I visited because his "mother" was drunk on the couch all the time?  The world is a cruel and negative  place sometimes.  Sorry about rambling.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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