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Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #151 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns

https://www.huskiesnewera.com/sb-husky-fall-classic/photos/4240179

Excellent photo gallery. Lots of Atlee and of Plain.

Plain's first photo.... third-base blues gonna have a lotta coaches in the ear.

They're not calling leaping, without a clear push off the replant (crow-hopping).

Reminds me of this exchange from Catch-22:

Quote:
Yossarian: "From now on I'm thinking only of me."

Major Danby replied indulgently with a superior smile: "But, Yossarian, suppose everyone felt that way."

"Then," said Yossarian, "I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"


In other words, if your going to be penalized for following the rules, screw the rules...
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
They're not calling leaping, without a clear push off the replant (crow-hopping).

100 percent ARE in the Pac. Ask Coach Berg about how many times concave-kneed Nerissa Eason was called for the pure leap.

But, further, that photo referenced is NOT a concave, drag-position trailing knee... it is a convex, replant trailing knee
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #153 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
100 percent ARE in the Pac. Ask Coach Berg about how many times concave-kneed Nerissa Eason was called for the pure leap.

But, further, that photo referenced is NOT a concave, drag-position trailing knee... it is a convex, replant trailing knee


In other words, the Pac was penalized for following the rules. With the NCAA totally ignoring the leaping rule, with or without a replant, why should the Pac continue to call it? Plain is an international pitcher. Under ISF rules, both leaping and crow-hopping are legal for women (leaping, but not crow-hopping, is legal for men). Given what happened at the WCWS, if I were Tarr, I wouldn't change a thing in her delivery.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #154 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


In other words, the Pac was penalized for following the rules. With the NCAA totally ignoring the leaping rule, with or without a replant, why should the Pac continue to call it? Plain is an international pitcher. Under ISF rules, both leaping and crow-hopping are legal for women (leaping, but not crow-hopping, is legal for men). Given what happened at the WCWS, if I were Tarr, I wouldn't change a thing in her delivery.


Following what rules? Int'l Rules? She clearly replants...look at the area under her "replant" foot, would bring water if it were any deeper. Her mound area will look just like Barnhill's.

I agree with your statement about WCWS, which is a travesty. 
cjs4585

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Ok Copernicus...so you going to pull out the Coriolis Force also? That would go further in explaining slight East/West movement on a Rise, Coriolis Effect. Shoot, (no pun intended) it works on bullets fired over long distances why wouldn't it have the same effect on a 6.5oz Softball release @ 38ft? 

With the Magnus Effect, the theory states the ball will rise. I'll agree but any "rise" due to actual "lift" wouldn't hardly be measurable, especially with a softball. And certainly not enough to alter a swing plane because of any visual corrections by a batter. 

Now Doc, let's tackle your launch angle dissertation. It's flawed to begin with because nobody can throw a 65mph softball with no spin AND, even if they could, the reason it ends up below your 4deg launch angle is because of GRAVITY. There is zero spin to maintain flite path. More likely the ball would "tumble" through the air.  With the nominal 24rps, and 4deg launch angle just goes to prove my initial point. At that speed & spin rate, the ball will automatically end up higher BECAUSE of the launch angle, NOT because of lift due to spin rates. The spin only serves to maintain altitude in this situation. Gravity is a non-factor from that distance & speed.  Again, humans are incapable of creating the necessary spin rates to create actual lift. 

Batters swing under rise balls because they are swinging to a spot but, YOUR launch angle provide the the altitude which causes that. Reaction time is a huge factor also. A 65-70mph mid rise looks flat & right down the middle 15 feet from the plate. Called pitching in tunnels. (credit: Rick Pauly)


3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #156 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


In other words, the Pac was penalized for following the rules. With the NCAA totally ignoring the leaping rule, with or without a replant, why should the Pac continue to call it? Plain is an international pitcher. Under ISF rules, both leaping and crow-hopping are legal for women (leaping, but not crow-hopping, is legal for men). Given what happened at the WCWS, if I were Tarr, I wouldn't change a thing in her delivery.
The Pac umps called the rules.

I think someone needs to crack the SEC umps' noggins.

But, that is immaterial to this discussion. That picture will be called in Pac games, especially ones against teams coached by hall of fame pitchers

Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #157 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
The Pac umps called the rules.


In the WCWS? I didn't see it called even once. The Pac isn't going to continue calling a rule the NCAA (er, ESPN) totally ignored. Even if the Pac does call it, I'd take my lumps in conference with my #2 or #3 pitcher, so I can have it in the WCWS.

Note: It was only because of the Pac (Escobedo and Fowler, primarily) that the NCAA started enforcing the leaping rule in the first place.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #158 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


In the WCWS? I didn't see it called even once. The Pac isn't going to continue calling a rule the NCAA (er, ESPN) totally ignored. Even if the Pac does call it, I'd take my lumps in conference with my #2 or #3 pitcher, so I can have it in the WCWS.

Note: It was only because of the Pac (Escobedo and Fowler, primarily) that the NCAA started enforcing the leaping rule in the first place.

If it is my No. 2 or No. 3, I make sure she is legal, so I don't hurt my conference record. She shouldn't be pitching too much in OKC anyway

Note: Brombacher got hit four times in UF's 16-3 loss to UCLA in the WCWS in 2010

 

cjs4585

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Reply with quote  #159 
It is not all due to launch angle. With a 65mph "rise", 4deg launch angle and lift coefficient of .18 (roughly 15rps) or less the ball will not rise all the way through it's trajectory. More than about .18 the ball rises all the way through.  In that case, it's not even a matter of "falling less". I can't post a picture but if you look at the study I posted you'll see an example of 3deg launch angle with lift coeff. .20 that looks similar to the graph of 4deg at .13 lift coeff. You'll also see an example with 4deg launch and .30 lift coeff, it's very different. The first one doesn't rise all the way through like the second, even though they are thrown from the same launch angle. 

I don't know of anyone that throws with no spin at all, but there are pitchers that throw intentionally with no back spin (required to generate vertical lift), essentially a drop with little to no peel (I've read Nerissa Eason does this). For rise balls, greater launch angle makes the pitcher's job easier for sure if they want to throw a continuously rising ball. This is one of the reasons you'll see many pitchers stick with "high" rises especially out of the zone as chase pitches. You can see from the paper, that if the launch angle is 7deg and you put even a little spin on the ball (>4rps) you'll be out of the zone. If you are throwing at small launch angles (low rise), without quite a lot of spin, it's hard to get your ball to look like anything other than a giant floating meatball. Certain pitchers like Barnhill can do it pretty consistently, most can't.     
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #160 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjs4585
It is not all due to launch angle. With a 65mph "rise", 4deg launch angle and lift coefficient of .18 (roughly 15rps) or less the ball will not rise all the way through it's trajectory. More than about .18 the ball rises all the way through.  In that case, it's not even a matter of "falling less". I can't post a picture but if you look at the study I posted you'll see an example of 3deg launch angle with lift coeff. .20 that looks similar to the graph of 4deg at .13 lift coeff. You'll also see an example with 4deg launch and .30 lift coeff, it's very different. The first one doesn't rise all the way through like the second, even though they are thrown from the same launch angle. 

I don't know of anyone that throws with no spin at all, but there are pitchers that throw intentionally with no back spin (required to generate vertical lift), essentially a drop with little to no peel (I've read Nerissa Eason does this). For rise balls, greater launch angle makes the pitcher's job easier for sure if they want to throw a continuously rising ball. This is one of the reasons you'll see many pitchers stick with "high" rises especially out of the zone as chase pitches. You can see from the paper, that if the launch angle is 7deg and you put even a little spin on the ball (>4rps) you'll be out of the zone. If you are throwing at small launch angles (low rise), without quite a lot of spin, it's hard to get your ball to look like anything other than a giant floating meatball. Certain pitchers like Barnhill can do it pretty consistently, most can't.     


The majority of the successes Barnhill enjoys is twofold: first & foremost she is only 1 of 2 pitchers in the country allowed to be illegal on most every pitch. With her habitual replant, her release point is more times than not reduced to 36'. That alone increases her velocity exponentially, quite possibly the mid 70s thru the zone. Second, her release angle only has to be enough to create a space equal to the width of a bat over the plate. 

Effective rise balls don't have to be thrown hard, they only need effective launch angles, ie: thrown from a low point to a higher point. 

While they're are physics' rules which dictate ball reactions, the measurable are so minute they don't even apply. And if they did, I can promise you every pitching coach would be teaching them. Wilkenson & Osorio mastered their launch angles and were both able to throw an effective Curve/Rise or Screw/Rise. Barnhill throws the best low & mid riseballs mostly because of velocity. Her launch angles are pretty shallow. But her trainwreck mechanics are her biggest advantage over every other pitcher.
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #161 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
If it is my No. 2 or No. 3, I make sure she is legal, so I don't hurt my conference record. She shouldn't be pitching too much in OKC anyway.


My guess is that she'll be a reliever, with Alvelo and Manti as the starters. As someone commented, she was leaping on some, not most, pitches.

If the NCAA (which has sold out to ESPN/SEC) won't be calling leaping at the WCWS, I doubt the Pac-12 will be calling it either.



cjs4585

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Reply with quote  #162 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


The majority of the successes Barnhill enjoys is twofold: first & foremost she is only 1 of 2 pitchers in the country allowed to be illegal on most every pitch. With her habitual replant, her release point is more times than not reduced to 36'. That alone increases her velocity exponentially, quite possibly the mid 70s thru the zone. Second, her release angle only has to be enough to create a space equal to the width of a bat over the plate. 

Effective rise balls don't have to be thrown hard, they only need effective launch angles, ie: thrown from a low point to a higher point. 

While they're are physics' rules which dictate ball reactions, the measurable are so minute they don't even apply. And if they did, I can promise you every pitching coach would be teaching them. Wilkenson & Osorio mastered their launch angles and were both able to throw an effective Curve/Rise or Screw/Rise. Barnhill throws the best low & mid riseballs mostly because of velocity. Her launch angles are pretty shallow. But her trainwreck mechanics are her biggest advantage over every other pitcher.


Sure, KB derives significant benefit from essentially throwing at 36'. I've argued as much several times on this forum (and also about the unfair advantage that gives her over other elite pitchers who are legal). It irks me that may have been the differentiating factor in her being POY.

Every pitching coach I know evaluates and teaches proper rise (and other pitch) spin as well as techniques for trying to increasing it. Of course, they also teach awareness of launch angles, balance, etc. Apart from the physical and mathematical proof, I would argue that if spin did nothing coaches wouldn't bother looking at it or talking about it, and that couldn't be further from the truth. 
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #163 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


My guess is that she'll be a reliever, with Alvelo and Manti as the starters. As someone commented, she was leaping on some, not most, pitches.

If the NCAA (which has sold out to ESPN/SEC) won't be calling leaping at the WCWS, I doubt the Pac-12 will be calling it either.



Nah, when that back leg is bent that way... that can't be made legal
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #164 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Nah, when that back leg is bent that way... that can't be made legal


You mean like this?

[r200925_600x600_1-1] 

If Barnhill can do it, and be named NPOY, then everybody should be able to do it. The Pac-12 isn't going to emphasize what the NCAA (dictated by ESPN/SEC) has clearly de-emphasized. Any coach now who has an incoming frosh that is effective doing this is going to leave her the heck alone.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #165 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjs4585


Sure, KB derives significant benefit from essentially throwing at 36'. I've argued as much several times on this forum (and also about the unfair advantage that gives her over other elite pitchers who are legal). It irks me that may have been the differentiating factor in her being POY.

Every pitching coach I know evaluates and teaches proper rise (and other pitch) spin as well as techniques for trying to increasing it. Of course, they also teach awareness of launch angles, balance, etc. Apart from the physical and mathematical proof, I would argue that if spin did nothing coaches wouldn't bother looking at it or talking about it, and that couldn't be further from the truth. 


I agree 100%. 

My only point, which I have admittedly beat to death, is, while the math does prove spin creates lift, humans throwing softballs just can't generate the required spin rates to generate said lift. 

My daughter has worked extensively with Rick Pauly over the years and he is a big proponent of everything you mentioned.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #166 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Nah, when that back leg is bent that way... that can't be made legal


+1, big time.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


You mean like this?

[r200925_600x600_1-1] 

If Barnhill can do it, and be named NPOY, then everybody should be able to do it. The Pac-12 isn't going to emphasize what the NCAA (dictated by ESPN/SEC) has clearly de-emphasized. Any coach now who has an incoming frosh that is effective doing this is going to leave her the heck alone.


Really? What, are you 11yrs old? If Washington isn't doing something about Plain's mechanics they are putting themselves in a really bad situation. Pac 12 has certainly made this call much more than the SEC. What will your position be come Feb when  the 3rd Base Umpire curcumcises Plain @ her replant foot? 3left is right, you can't just spend a few hours in the bullpen & tweek her motion. If she does start to get called illegal, she effectively gets nuetered & can't pitch most games depending on who is calling the games. Then Washington looks fairly silly for recruiting a kid who can't play within the rules. 

That said, PAC 12 did get the official game ball changed which, benefited pitcher so what's to think Washington can't get a one time exemption for trainwreck mechanics. Heck, Florida has a 4yr exemption which stretches Nationwide.

SBFan101

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Reply with quote  #168 
Just curious: did this one get called a lot during her 4 years in the PAC?Image result for ally carda pitching
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #169 

Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Really? What, are you 11yrs old? If Washington isn't doing something about Plain's mechanics they are putting themselves in a really bad situation. Pac 12 has certainly made this call much more than the SEC.


Come now, let's not be sophomoric. (I'll leave your circumcision comment untouched - where did that come from?)

If it were simply a matter of the Pac-12 vs the SEC, that would be one thing. As long as the rule was being enforced on the NCAA level, the Pac-12 was perfectly right to follow suit. However, at the 2017 WCWS the umpires were clearly ordered to not call leaping, even with a replant, as long as there was not a clear push-off from the replant. In other words, leaping and replanting is allowed, but a full-crowhop is not. That just so happens to be the international rule in women's softball.

That the NCAA has sold out to ESPN, which is in bed with the SEC, is indubitable. ESPN clearly told the NCAA, "We don't want illegal pitch calls mucking up our coverage, especially against a certain SEC pitcher." This is now in essence a contractual obligation: "In return for giving you, the NCAA, beaucoup bucks, we, ESPN/SEC, get to set the rules." The real rule book is now kept at ESPN corporate headquarters. Call it a devil's bargain, but a bargain it clearly is. Has the NCAA sold its soul? Clearly. Money rules.

So, what are the other conferences going to do, now that the SEC has been given carte blanche to do whatever it wants? What are other coaches, other than Walton, going to do, now that what was, at least nominally, forbidden is now permitted? Should they continue to enforce and coach what puts them at a clear disadvantage (despite the all too sophistic arguments of Florida fans to the contrary)? What is Tarr, who has always coached her pitchers to be "legal", going to do, now that she has a full-blown international pitcher on her staff? These are not questions that can simply and merely be dismissed as "childish".

I'm merely saying, if she is no more egregious than Barnhill, leave her be. What is fair for one is fair for all.

3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #170 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBFan101
Just curious: did this one get called a lot during her 4 years in the PAC?Image result for ally carda pitching
Until senior year when she had fellow hopper Hall with her. Hardly at all senior year in 2015.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa



Come now, let's not be sophomoric. (I'll leave your circumcision comment untouched - where did that come from?)

If it were simply a matter of the Pac-12 vs the SEC, that would be one thing. As long as the rule was being enforced on the NCAA level, the Pac-12 was perfectly right to follow suit. However, at the 2017 WCWS the umpires were clearly ordered to not call leaping, even with a replant, as long as there was not a clear push-off from the replant. In other words, leaping and replanting is allowed, but a full-crowhop is not. That just so happens to be the international rule in women's softball.

That the NCAA has sold out to ESPN, which is in bed with the SEC, is indubitable. ESPN clearly told the NCAA, "We don't want illegal pitch calls mucking up our coverage, especially against a certain SEC pitcher." This is now in essence a contractual obligation: "In return for giving you, the NCAA, beaucoup bucks, we, ESPN/SEC, get to set the rules." The real rule book is now kept at ESPN corporate headquarters. Call it a devil's bargain, but a bargain it clearly is. Has the NCAA sold its soul? Clearly. Money rules.

So, what are the other conferences going to do, now that the SEC has been given carte blanche to do whatever it wants? What are other coaches, other than Walton, going to do, now that what was, at least nominally, forbidden is now permitted? Should they continue to enforce and coach what puts them at a clear disadvantage (despite the all too sophistic arguments of Florida fans to the contrary)? What is Tarr, who has always coached her pitchers to be "legal", going to do, now that she has a full-blown international pitcher on her staff? These are not questions that can simply and merely be dismissed as "childish".

I'm merely saying, if she is no more egregious than Barnhill, leave her be. What is fair for one is fair for all.

Why wasn't that one of the rules changes this offseason?
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #172 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Why wasn't that one of the rules changes this offseason?


Because they'd be acknowledging that they've sold the store...

They also haven't clarified that the third-base basepath is six-feet wide, unless you're Oklahoma, in which case it is ten-feet wide.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #173 
They absolutely have painted themselves into a corner.

Probably same reason video review wasn't installed after last season.... they would be admitting OU had it greased for them
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #174 

http://www.gohuskies.com/schedule.aspx?path=softball

UW gets the last weekend off, like Arizona did this year.

Ducks get UCLA, Utah and Arizona at home and Washington on road

Huskies get Oregon, Utah and Arizona at home and UCLA on the road

 

 

Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #175 
Alabama in Seattle, in early March, should be interesting. I'll be there, but likely bundled up.
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