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mikec

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Reply with quote  #91 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
Can anyone on the left have the gall to try to defend why the White House is hosting the Muslim Brotherhood soon?


This Presidency has got to end.

I suppose that it worked out so well when he went to Egypt and apologized for our exceptionalism, and promised a new day in relations, that he might as well legitimize the Muslim Brotherhood.

Is this stuff intentional (as in he really is trying to marginalize America), or he just that stupid?
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #92 
I have seen 14 minutes of the film, Muhammad Movie Trailer off of youtube, [didn't want to provide link on this site] that Hillary says is soooo reprehensible.  It is satire, comedy, a social statement and a little protest all rolled into one.  Poor quality also. Nothing to get anyone killed over.  This was just their excuse to kill American citizens on 9/11 anniversary.
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #93 
Check out this story of Iraqi teenagers killed because of their haircuts, their fricking haircuts!!!!  these are the fanatics we are dealing with and when they see weakness, they see targets. 

http://www.muslimsdebate.com/n.php?nid=6231

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #94 
real - Fanatics on either end of the political and personal spectrum look for any excuse to commit atrocities or hurl invectives in the name of their "holy and concrete absolutely correct causes".  Hence nationalism and religious fervor are often the culprits in world and even intra national insanities.  Nature has given mankind a mind capable of creating a peaceful world.  Fanatics do not use their minds for that purpose.    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
slideby7

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Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
real - Fanatics on either end of the political and personal spectrum look for any excuse to commit atrocities or hurl invectives in the name of their "holy and concrete absolutely correct causes".  Hence nationalism and religious fervor are often the culprits in world and even intra national insanities.  Nature has given mankind a mind capable of creating a peaceful world.  Fanatics do not use their minds for that purpose.    Frank


Mr. Joisey, Would you be kind enough to offer modern day examples of atrocities on the other end of the spectrum from Islam that remotely compares.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #96 
Yes Joisey please, I had a similar response all typed up but wanted someone else to ask for the example.  Can you give examples of "Fanatics on either end of the political and personal spectrum" that kill teenagers because of their haircuts or kill Americans in their embassies? Inquiring minds are waiting
__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Posts: 23,594
Reply with quote  #97 
Saw the service today on TV of the service for our four lost Americans at Andrews AFB that honored their lives, their service to our country and to their families. 4 hearses, 4 lost Americans.  These men had great American resumes.  I will give it to the president and hillary for their remarks, they were appropriate. I just wish she wouldn't have referenced that effin film. obama is cool under the camera, he seems to own a mask to me however.
__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
TheHammer

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Posts: 11,135
Reply with quote  #98 
you fans accept the fact that losers always do things to attract attention and money. how come that those people sent that movie to the middle east to make trouble, and yet are not showing it in europe or other non moslem countries. now those people will become millionaires.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #99 
Hammer - It's the capitalist way - find a need and fill it and become wealthy through profit. Can't have it both ways when only one value is applied. One person's capitalist imperialist is another's smart businessman. That difference in perspective just might lead us into another war.    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #100 
7 and real - You both have asked a "How often do you beat your wife" question.  If I were to reply "waterboarding" your answers would be similar and connected to terrorism, and if I noted atrocities in Iraqi military prisons, your answers would have to be that those actions don't compare to stoning women or killing teen agers over a hair cut.                                                                          

Extremes in each nationalist or religious action must be measured by the standards of the nation or religion in time and space.  In ours as well as theirs there are extremists.  I'm sure that you know who they are if you follow the media for example. I, for example, think that scalping Native Americans or putting Small Pox in their blankets along the Trail of Tears, or the Massacre at Wounded Knee are examples of American atrocities. Andersonville was an atrocity.  Slavery and its hangings and whippings?  At Wounded Knee those babies never even had the opportunity to grow up and have teen age haircuts. Know where the word "fag" came from??     Frank

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #101 
Frank, when are we going to wake up to the fact that those countries that we want to become democratic have no way to do it. all their history they have been ruled by dictators thus do not know what democracy is.
whocares

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Reply with quote  #102 
Do you think that Obama will let our Embassy guards use real bullets now? Four good men are dead because of our stupid politicians.
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Whocares
mikec

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Reply with quote  #103 
Frank - as a southerner, and to add some balance, I have to point out that the union prison camp in Chicago was at least as bad as Andersonville. It's just lesser known.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #104 
Mike - I know about the other camps run by the Union that were horrors, but I've only visited Andersonville and read McKinley Cantor's book.  I am always reminded of William Wordsworth's admonition, "And I do decry what man has made  of man".  I watched on TV the ceremony for the returning victims of senseless murder in Libya, and though I know better intellectually, I am filled with rage and a desire for vengeance.  I do not keep a gun in my house.    Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
mikec

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Posts: 8,296
Reply with quote  #105 

BLACK FLAG OF ISLAM FLIES OVER AMERICAN EMBASSY IN TUNISIA – pic from Cleveland Leader

mikec

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Posts: 8,296
Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Mike - I know about the other camps run by the Union that were horrors, but I've only visited Andersonville and read McKinley Cantor's book.  I am always reminded of William Wordsworth's admonition, "And I do decry what man has made  of man".  I watched on TV the ceremony for the returning victims of senseless murder in Libya, and though I know better intellectually, I am filled with rage and a desire for vengeance.  I do not keep a gun in my house.    Frank



I figured you did.  I was just jazzing you.  My kin were some of those anti-slavery folk in the south, that still had their home burned to the ground.  The stories are legend in our family.  I try not to be bitter. 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #107 
Mike - Georgia??  Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #108 
hammer, democracy has nothing to do with it.  Its called crazy people.  They happen in all countries, religions, etc....
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Susan
mikec

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Reply with quote  #109 
Frank - Yes sir. 5th boat from England to Savannah.
woody

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Reply with quote  #110 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
Frank, when are we going to wake up to the fact that those countries that we want to become democratic have no way to do it. all their history they have been ruled by dictators thus do not know what democracy is.


I believe that almost all of the Middle Eastern nations, could be termed as "Tribal" in nature, and therefore remain non evolved as societies, since times inception. Those with the wealth, and the wherewithal care for, and remove their children from their society, and send them to Western countries for formal education, and a chance at a better life. Why is that?

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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
slideby7

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Posts: 818
Reply with quote  #111 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
7 and real - You both have asked a "How often do you beat your wife" question.  If I were to reply "waterboarding" your answers would be similar and connected to terrorism, and if I noted atrocities in Iraqi military prisons, your answers would have to be that those actions don't compare to stoning women or killing teen agers over a hair cut.                                                                          

Extremes in each nationalist or religious action must be measured by the standards of the nation or religion in time and space.  In ours as well as theirs there are extremists.  I'm sure that you know who they are if you follow the media for example. I, for example, think that scalping Native Americans or putting Small Pox in their blankets along the Trail of Tears, or the Massacre at Wounded Knee are examples of American atrocities. Andersonville was an atrocity.  Slavery and its hangings and whippings?  At Wounded Knee those babies never even had the opportunity to grow up and have teen age haircuts. Know where the word "fag" came from??     Frank


Mr. Joisey,  The beat your wife analogy is totally not applicable.  Given my choice of being  waterboarded or having my throat slit is not a tough call for me.  While some of the history you reference I am not proud of, it disturbs me that you and others, both on this website and elsewhere are so quick to point to.   If you are suggesting that there is some kind of moral equivilancy here, I am dumbfounded.   Your best examples are from 150 plus years ago.  Your reference to extremist is actually more the norm in the middle east.  Look at what the democratic elections brought into power.

To say the least, I would rather be a Muslim living in the USA than a Christian Live in a Muslim country.  Yes I do know one of several descriptions of where the word fag came from.  Do you want me to tell you>
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #112 
woody:  I believe that almost all of the Middle Eastern nations, could be termed as "Tribal" in nature...

You did say most, but your comment is a sweeping generalization. I know a little about this country, let's start with Libya:

wikipedia: About 70% of Jordan's population is urban; less than 6% of the rural population is nomadic or semi-nomadic. Most people live where the rainfall supports agriculture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jordan

woody: Those with the wealth, and the wherewithal care for, and remove their children from their society, and send them to Western countries for formal education, and a chance at a better life...

So, what are you saying? Yes, some families send their children to Westernized countries for a university education. Those children return. So I can ask, "Why is that?"

My wife knows better to ask me to attend a Super Bowl party. Having coached a little football, it can be frustrating listening to those attending. Analyzing and second guessing quarterbacks. coaches and officials from the sofa.

Those in foreign service know and understand the risks. They also understand the importance of the mission they are asked to perform. Second guessing and politicizing by the hoi polloi is a disservice to the ideals they carried to the job.

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #113 
BS - Sometimes the second-guessers are right.

As to how tribal these countries are, a close friend's son is a Seal with first hand experience with the Afghan people. He would absolutely agree with woody on this. I realize we're talking about north Africa here. He's due to deploy there in a couple of months. I will certainly find out what his thoughts are about that part of the world.

I'm definitely interested in hearing what you know about post-al-Gadaffi Libya.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #114 

Afghanistan is the polar opposite and hardly the most representative example of the region. Years of Soviet occupation left the country decidely rural. With stablization, a return of those Afganis that left the country will increase the rising urban population. At present, still a mess.

Libya is equally as urban as Jordan. Tribal ties exist, very striated alligances that result in easily fomented public. We should know. Our sticks have stirred the pot as often as others in the region.

I do not condone the cowards that stormed the walls of the embassy. Tired as any of seeing good people die in our pursuit of Manifest Destiny. Equally fatigued of "second guessers" pointing fingers.

Get on a boat, on a plane or stick to critcizing softball coaches and officials.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
woody

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Reply with quote  #115 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith
woody:  I believe that almost all of the Middle Eastern nations, could be termed as "Tribal" in nature...

You did say most, but your comment is a sweeping generalization. I know a little about this country, let's start with Libya:

wikipedia: About 70% of Jordan's population is urban; less than 6% of the rural population is nomadic or semi-nomadic. Most people live where the rainfall supports agriculture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jordan

woody: Those with the wealth, and the wherewithal care for, and remove their children from their society, and send them to Western countries for formal education, and a chance at a better life...

So, what are you saying? Yes, some families send their children to Westernized countries for a university education. Those children return. So I can ask, "Why is that?"

My wife knows better to ask me to attend a Super Bowl party. Having coached a little football, it can be frustrating listening to those attending. Analyzing and second guessing quarterbacks. coaches and officials from the sofa.

Those in foreign service know and understand the risks. They also understand the importance of the mission they are asked to perform. Second guessing and politicizing by the hoi polloi is a disservice to the ideals they carried to the job.


Why do you assume that the children return? Many stay here on work visas. How many college grads from wealthy families in Afghanistan are going back to their country? Many Middle Eastern countries have experienced a loss of their nations top minds. Afghan, and Libyan Nationals whom had the financial ability, ie Doctors, Scientist, Professors, fled their country, and will not be returning anytime soon. It is the same with very wealthy Mexican Nationals. The rich have bought large homes in Texas, and shipped there families to the safety of the U.S. while war rages in their country. Doubt you will see many of these families going back to Mexico after they become accustomed to life in the USA

As far as Tribal, you pointed out a small nation like Jordan whom has about 6 million people as an example. Tell me, would you consider Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Syria to be tribal or not? Ask Turkey, and the Kurds in Iraq if they are tribal. Ask the Persians in Iran if they are tribal, and aligned by religious sect to some of the tribal population in Iraq. These countries have large populations of tribal factions, that have battled each other since the beginning of time..

__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #116 
people if you go back in history, Europe was also tribal. even now in france there are different tribes.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #117 
Hammer - The problem as was exhibited in tribal genocide in Africa occurs when allegiance to the tribe far exceeds allegiance to the nation state.  I do believe that this is a major problem in the Middle East and elsewhere.    Frank
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
TheHammer

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Posts: 11,135
Reply with quote  #118 
you are correct FRANK.
if you ask all people in the middle east or africa where they come from, they will answer the local of their tribe, such as kurdestan, for kurds
armanestan for armenians, ETC.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #119 

woody-

I took exception to your statement that, "...almost all of the Middle Eastern nations, could be termed as "Tribal" in nature..." , making the conclusion,  "therefore remain non evolved as societies, since times inception."

You know what you've heard, read & have been told in anecdotal fashion. We'll have to disagree about the depth of the effect of tribal traditions and "almost all of the Middle East" being "non-evolved". That's not my experience.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
keepinitreal

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Posts: 23,594
Reply with quote  #120 
4 more Marines die overnight in Afghanistan, shot and killed by an Afghanistan police officer.

Signs in Tunisia read this morning "Obama, Obama we are all Osama".
20 American targets are under siege throughout the world by millions of zealots.

US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice says again this morning that this is all about the video floating around on youtube. 

These are the facts we wake up to this morning.

The leftists will view this as whining when we are not talking of the breaking news of the day on abortion, contraception and food stamps. Foreign relations, who needs them?

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
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