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RahOKU

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Reply with quote  #1 
Seeing a lot of social media push for the U.S. National and Junior National teams. With softball returning to the Olympics in 2020, these programs will increase in importance.

Question: Why isn't there a single Oklahoma player on either roster? (I don't count Dalton on the JNT because she's no longer with OU.) Hard to believe Knighten, Parker, Lowary and Clifton aren't deserving.

Is there some kind of rift between USA Softball and the OU program -- recognizing that the players themselves may have opted not to be part of the national team effort.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #2 

FSU is the mystery to me -- Warren in particular, but Burroughs too. The tryouts were IN Florida in January. Zero Noles at that tryout. Gators and USF kids galore.

That said, I know that Wodach, Lowary and --- I believe --- Romero were at tryouts. The few people who stood out from start to finish there did make the team IMHO (Barnhill, Gourley, Zerkle particularly).

Lowary? This last month was the first time we have seen the Lowary that we have speculated had a limitless ceiling when we saw her as such an unbridled talent 5+ years ago. And, Paige WAS on the Elite team in the summer. Resilient kid.

Parker? Who knows... maybe Gasso said hands off after the innings overdose she had last year. Traina, some would say, was never the same after the 2012 similar run followed by those national team innings with no break. And, boy, Parker did not look like herself at the end of this season in the innings I saw her pitch... maybe they were outliers.

Field players? Oklahoma's kids are good, but there are a lot of kids arguably better than them sitting home this summer, too.

1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahOKU
Seeing a lot of social media push for the U.S. National and Junior National teams. With softball returning to the Olympics in 2020, these programs will increase in importance.

Question: Why isn't there a single Oklahoma player on either roster? (I don't count Dalton on the JNT because she's no longer with OU.) Hard to believe Knighten, Parker, Lowary and Clifton aren't deserving.

Is there some kind of rift between USA Softball and the OU program -- recognizing that the players themselves may have opted not to be part of the national team effort.



My honest thought is that Oklahoma is comprised of team ascension players rather than individual superstars...which is where it counts as far as the ultimate college softball game, right?!

The current national team and the coming Olympic team will not be nearly the same dominant teams they had in the past...those were teams of superstars who could play as a team in addition to being individual superstars.
Shadetree

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Reply with quote  #4 
USA teams are a club where you have to be invited to join.  Lots of great players are passed over as they are not in the coaches hierarchy circle.  If they continue to handle things the same way we will get out butt handed to us in 2020.  Should be some sort of effort to get the best players period to represent our country.....without the politics  
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



My honest thought is that Oklahoma is comprised of team ascension players rather than individual superstars...which is where it counts as far as the ultimate college softball game, right?!

The current national team and the coming Olympic team will not be nearly the same dominant teams they had in the past...those were teams pf superstars who could play as a team in addition to being individual superstars.


I think that there's a lot of talent who will pursue or are pursued by other country's teams that could make the dominance of US team much tougher as well.
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadetree
USA teams are a club where you have to be invited to join.  Lots of great players are passed over as they are not in the coaches hierarchy circle.  If they continue to handle things the same way we will get out butt handed to us in 2020.  Should be some sort of effort to get the best players period to represent our country.....without the politics  


+1
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadetree
USA teams are a club where you have to be invited to join.  Lots of great players are passed over as they are not in the coaches hierarchy circle.  If they continue to handle things the same way we will get out butt handed to us in 2020.  Should be some sort of effort to get the best players period to represent our country.....without the politics  


This was never more apparent than with the Junior National Team. Politics aside, their tryouts were more about who DIDN'T show up than who did & was invited. Especially with Pitchers
CoachZ

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


This was never more apparent than with the Junior National Team. Politics aside, their tryouts were more about who DIDN'T show up than who did & was invited. Especially with Pitchers


Who was so blatantly missing?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #9 
Two second basemen and no catcher... Rodney Dangerfield must have been a catcher

https://twitter.com/USASoftball/status/875533883588071424
gatorbob

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Reply with quote  #10 
team USA up 10-2 on Mexico now, bottom of 2nd. Stream, poorly, on Team USA site and You Tube!

Make that 12-2, bottom of 3rd.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/Events/2017/June/13/Womens-National-Team-Tour-Stop
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
Who was so blatantly missing?


Most of the best Juniors & Senior either didn't want to play or chose not to show to open tryouts. That was my only point. 

An example: kid from Va. chosen from the open tryout probably doesn't rate a blip on the radar if the options weren't so limited. Good for her for making the effort though.
CoachZ

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Most of the best Juniors & Senior either didn't want to play or chose not to show to open tryouts. That was my only point. 

An example: kid from Va. chosen from the open tryout probably doesn't rate a blip on the radar if the options weren't so limited. Good for her for making the effort though.


I watched the tryouts and respectfully disagree that "most" of the best didn't come. I may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I believe that the VA kid who doesn't rate "a blip on anyone's radar" is Mickey Dean's next projected All-American at JMU? As far as others' complaints about it just being a political process; the fact is that ASA is THE governing body of softball and they get to govern the process for choosing Team USA. They have created a tournament specifically for selecting the Junior National Team. Many California teams don't play in it because PGF has picked a fight with ASA and chooses purposefully to put its nationals on the same week as the JO Cup (despite the ASA making their best effort to work with PGF, PGF just flat refused). You can't get mad at ASA for not picking kids who aren't showing up to their "tryout" at the JO Cup. That's like working at Dunkin Donuts your whole life and being mad that Starbucks never hired you despite the fact that you never filled out an application.
Lastly, Brooke Vestal (2018 Oklahoma commit), Cassidy Davis (FSU freshman), the outfielder who just left OU, Leah Wodach and Paige Lowary were at tryouts (I can't speak to why Warren wasn't there). A great player doesn't always have their best days at a tryout. But how do you take a spot from a kid who showed up on fire and give it to a kid who didn't show up? Doesn't that negate the whole tryout process?
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
I watched the tryouts and respectfully disagree that "most" of the best didn't come. I may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I believe that the VA kid who doesn't rate "a blip on anyone's radar" is Mickey Dean's next projected All-American at JMU? As far as others' complaints about it just being a political process; the fact is that ASA is THE governing body of softball and they get to govern the process for choosing Team USA. They have created a tournament specifically for selecting the Junior National Team. Many California teams don't play in it because PGF has picked a fight with ASA and chooses purposefully to put its nationals on the same week as the JO Cup (despite the ASA making their best effort to work with PGF, PGF just flat refused). You can't get mad at ASA for not picking kids who aren't showing up to their "tryout" at the JO Cup. That's like working at Dunkin Donuts your whole life and being mad that Starbucks never hired you despite the fact that you never filled out an application. Lastly, Brooke Vestal (2018 Oklahoma commit), Cassidy Davis (FSU freshman), the outfielder who just left OU, Leah Wodach and Paige Lowary were at tryouts (I can't speak to why Warren wasn't there). A great player doesn't always have their best days at a tryout. But how do you take a spot from a kid who showed up on fire and give it to a kid who didn't show up? Doesn't that negate the whole tryout process?



Are we talking junior national team or team usa now?  Lowary on or trying out for jwnt?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
I watched the tryouts and respectfully disagree that "most" of the best didn't come. I may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I believe that the VA kid who doesn't rate "a blip on anyone's radar" is Mickey Dean's next projected All-American at JMU? As far as others' complaints about it just being a political process; the fact is that ASA is THE governing body of softball and they get to govern the process for choosing Team USA. They have created a tournament specifically for selecting the Junior National Team. Many California teams don't play in it because PGF has picked a fight with ASA and chooses purposefully to put its nationals on the same week as the JO Cup (despite the ASA making their best effort to work with PGF, PGF just flat refused). You can't get mad at ASA for not picking kids who aren't showing up to their "tryout" at the JO Cup. That's like working at Dunkin Donuts your whole life and being mad that Starbucks never hired you despite the fact that you never filled out an application. Lastly, Brooke Vestal (2018 Oklahoma commit), Cassidy Davis (FSU freshman), the outfielder who just left OU, Leah Wodach and Paige Lowary were at tryouts (I can't speak to why Warren wasn't there). A great player doesn't always have their best days at a tryout. But how do you take a spot from a kid who showed up on fire and give it to a kid who didn't show up? Doesn't that negate the whole tryout process?
I was only talking about the big-girl tryout
CoachZ

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Are we talking junior national team or team usa now?  Lowary on or trying out for jwnt?


I referenced both in my post as this thread has referenced both. No one is more aware than I am that this process is and always has been a political one to an extent. Dad always joked that my invite didn't come for years because USA just didn't have a uniform small enough for me. Meanwhile, every kid who was the MVP in the Pro League got an invite every year. Except me. Every kid who was Pitcher of the Year in the Pro League got an invite. Except me. I was both in the same year and POY back to back years. No invite until someone called them on it. I was invited to the last tryout before 2004 olympics when they were trying to whittle down pitching staff because of the addition of Osterman, Abbott, and Finch and there were no spots. It was perfunctory to say the least.
Having said all that, throughout that entire time, I wouldn't slag the players who did get an invite by saying that the players invited weren't spectacular. That's not cool. Some of that is going on here as it did then. It's still not cool.
Skinny

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Reply with quote  #16 
How do you feel about ASA anointing Ken Ericksen as the coach that's going to be leading the charge for this "new era" of softball? I respect the man for the years he's put into USA softball and South Florida. But I still think it doesn't look good for the game when Gas and Walton most likely wont be associated with this team in 2020.
jmo

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
I watched the tryouts and respectfully disagree that "most" of the best didn't come. I may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I believe that the VA kid who doesn't rate "a blip on anyone's radar" is Mickey Dean's next projected All-American at JMU? As far as others' complaints about it just being a political process; the fact is that ASA is THE governing body of softball and they get to govern the process for choosing Team USA. They have created a tournament specifically for selecting the Junior National Team. Many California teams don't play in it because PGF has picked a fight with ASA and chooses purposefully to put its nationals on the same week as the JO Cup (despite the ASA making their best effort to work with PGF, PGF just flat refused). You can't get mad at ASA for not picking kids who aren't showing up to their "tryout" at the JO Cup. That's like working at Dunkin Donuts your whole life and being mad that Starbucks never hired you despite the fact that you never filled out an application. Lastly, Brooke Vestal (2018 Oklahoma commit), Cassidy Davis (FSU freshman), the outfielder who just left OU, Leah Wodach and Paige Lowary were at tryouts (I can't speak to why Warren wasn't there). A great player doesn't always have their best days at a tryout. But how do you take a spot from a kid who showed up on fire and give it to a kid who didn't show up? Doesn't that negate the whole tryout process?


Couple of corrections. PGF has been around for 8 years while the JO Cup is only in its 3rd year. PGF has always held their Nationals on the same week. It was ASA that dropped their JO Cup on PGF (2 of the 3 years in their own backyard - now has is that trying to work with them - Haha). ASA has NEVER tried to work with PGF and PGF has not flat refused. As a matter of fact, if they had chosen the weekend before PGF for their MONEYBALL tourney, many PGF teams would have played in it.
Secondly, 19 of the 24 players selected to the Junior National Team are PGF players. And if I remember correctly, 23 of the 36 players invited to the tryouts were PGF players.
As far as the National Team selections, ASA/PGF does not even come into play. Those players are selected based on the college play and the politics of the college coaches comes into play.
Now whether they are getting the best players will always be questioned but the players being selected are all elite players as the talent across the country has elevated.

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Shadetree

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Reply with quote  #18 
2 players from the JWNT a few years back that won silver in Toronto World Championships are on the big girl team now.   2       I realize its hit and miss at a young age but several from that team have achieved All American status and are not "in the club" or choose to not be in the club.  Monica Abbott will be on the team for 2020 if still performing as she is now right?  Whose place does she take?   Ken Erickson is a nice guy but IMO the process is broken.  Invite the very best players at the time to play regardless of if you are "in their system" or not and if they do not want to represent their country or cant then move down the list. 
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadetree
2 players from the JWNT a few years back that won silver in Toronto World Championships are on the big girl team now.   2       I realize its hit and miss at a young age but several from that team have achieved All American status and are not "in the club" or choose to not be in the club.  


So how were they previously "in the club" for JWNT and not "in the club" now?
smileyface

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Reply with quote  #20 
Shelby Pendley was "in the club" then se transferred to OK and was taken "out of the club"
Shadetree

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot


So how were they previously "in the club" for JWNT and not "in the club" now?


JWNT was handpicked with no tryouts at all. 
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadetree


JWNT was handpicked with no tryouts at all. 


Not true. They held Open Tryouts back in December.
Shadetree

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Not true. They held Open Tryouts back in December.


sorry was referring to the team that now only has 2 players on the big girls team.  
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
I watched the tryouts and respectfully disagree that "most" of the best didn't come. I may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I believe that the VA kid who doesn't rate "a blip on anyone's radar" is Mickey Dean's next projected All-American at JMU? As far as others' complaints about it just being a political process; the fact is that ASA is THE governing body of softball and they get to govern the process for choosing Team USA. They have created a tournament specifically for selecting the Junior National Team. Many California teams don't play in it because PGF has picked a fight with ASA and chooses purposefully to put its nationals on the same week as the JO Cup (despite the ASA making their best effort to work with PGF, PGF just flat refused). You can't get mad at ASA for not picking kids who aren't showing up to their "tryout" at the JO Cup. That's like working at Dunkin Donuts your whole life and being mad that Starbucks never hired you despite the fact that you never filled out an application. Lastly, Brooke Vestal (2018 Oklahoma commit), Cassidy Davis (FSU freshman), the outfielder who just left OU, Leah Wodach and Paige Lowary were at tryouts (I can't speak to why Warren wasn't there). A great player doesn't always have their best days at a tryout. But how do you take a spot from a kid who showed up on fire and give it to a kid who didn't show up? Doesn't that negate the whole tryout process?


Wish I new who you were, I'm probably a big fan. Sucking up aside:

My post relates to the Junior National Team, not the Varsity version.

I wasn't saying that a no show should get a spot over a kid that did show...quite the opposite. I give the Va kid ALOT of credit for showing. But I stand by my remarks that she most likely is a ghost if most of the stud high school pitchers are there. It's also possible she is the beneficiary of politics, who knows. That selection process is about as political as anything I've ever seen. But that's not news to anybody.

As far as Micky Dean's next AA...time will tell but I'll address the kid as I have been critical in previous posts. The opinions are mine alone so I'll take the darts. She's a fine pitcher, good size, long levers etc...I've seen her throw in travel & school ball. The supposed book on her is throwing 68-69.  I've put a gun on her multiple times and never had her over 63 game speed in a travel game. She's the #2 on her travel team behind the Coastal commit...who is the real deal. She just won he Va Gatorade POY which is fantastic except, she plays in probably the weakest, smallest Private School Conference in the State. Her stats are so jacked up as not to be believable. 26-0 this past season. And she lost 5 games in 2016 which is incredulous in that conference. Thats like Kelly Barnhill throwing to any Middle School team, losing a couple games...and actually keeping scores & stats. When you're striking out kids who have to rent bats to play, then bragging about the stats, false advertising. 

I congratulate her for the nice awards. It's great for her teams & JMU. The CAA is probably about right for her.

CoachZ, most likely your are correct. The kid peaked for the right people @ the right time. And showing up is all it takes sometimes. 


Ij10

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Not true. They held Open Tryouts back in December.

We were there Daughter had a really good day mind u getting 8 swings off a machine and a few ground balls and running to second is kind of hard to evaluate. There were only 2 infielders that hit a Hr in the group and she hit 3 so we hung around thinking she would get a shot at making it into the tryout but no such luck. It has been a good motivator for her getting ready for college since some kids she has played travel with were invited. I still enjoyed the experience.
Dusty

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
As far as Micky Dean's next AA...time will tell but I'll address the kid as I have been critical in previous posts. The opinions are mine alone so I'll take the darts. She's a fine pitcher, good size, long levers etc...I've seen her throw in travel & school ball. The supposed book on her is throwing 68-69.  I've put a gun on her multiple times and never had her over 63 game speed in a travel game. She's the #2 on her travel team behind the Coastal commit...who is the real deal. She just won he Va Gatorade POY which is fantastic except, she plays in probably the weakest, smallest Private School Conference in the State. Her stats are so jacked up as not to be believable. 26-0 this past season. And she lost 5 games in 2016 which is incredulous in that conference. Thats like Kelly Barnhill throwing to any Middle School team, losing a couple games...and actually keeping scores & stats. When you're striking out kids who have to rent bats to play, then bragging about the stats, false advertising. 


Ok, I'll throw the first one.  I don't know about all of those 5 losses in '16 but 3 of them were to teams with D1 pitching commits, one of whom was the #2 at Fordham this year and had a 2.00 ERA as a freshman.  That may not blow anyone away but it's a far cry from middle school ball.

It's a fine line between legitimate criticism of a college pitching prospect and hating on a HS age girl.  As it is this girl is going to college with AA expectations (where does that come from?) and doesn't have the benefit that Good had of sharing the circle with Ford her first two years without having to worry about some guy stalking her with a radar gun to get her honest to goodness in-game pitching speed.  Just saying.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty


Ok, I'll throw the first one.  I don't know about all of those 5 losses in '16 but 3 of them were to teams with D1 pitching commits, one of whom was the #2 at Fordham this year and had a 2.00 ERA as a freshman.  That may not blow anyone away but it's a far cry from middle school ball.

It's a fine line between legitimate criticism of a college pitching prospect and hating on a HS age girl.  As it is this girl is going to college with AA expectations (where does that come from?) and doesn't have the benefit that Good had of sharing the circle with Ford her first two years without having to worry about some guy stalking her with a radar gun to get her honest to goodness in-game pitching speed.  Just saying.


CoachZ mentioned the AA stuff. I was responding to that original post.

And the stalking comment, it's pretty much routine at any game. Me like anybody, hears some kid is throwing 69, well that is worth checking out & verifying...with predictable results. And game speed velocity is ALL that matters. Nobody cares to hear about some 1-off pitch a kid threw in a workout, let alone advertise that's the norm.  Sorry the facts get in the way. 

So the new bar for criticism is called hate because you don't agree with the statement. I find that ironic considering she's heading to JMU to play for Dean. My comments are fairy tales compared to what she is walking in to. 

And your analogy of 3 losses against D1 commits rings shallow. I get not getting run support. But when you're throwing 68-69, which is the book on her, you're not losing ANY games in her Private School Conference. Blowing 3 teams out by 30-0 in your Private School State Tourney is a good indicator the competition borders on pathetic. The #2 @ Fordham shutting her team down only confirms what I'm saying. Weak ball.

Her being chosen to the Junior National Training Team is incredible for her & Va. She does a fine job for the Glory. I hope the kid is a 4X AA and makes the Olympic Team. I do. I just haven't seen the results in all the hype. 


Dusty

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Reply with quote  #28 
I know you didn't bring up the AA stuff, I was asking that somewhat rhetorically since it's obviously out there.  Even though I haven't seen the girl pitch in a few years I never bought the 68-69 mph talk either but she's not the only pitcher out there with an inflated velocity rep.  It sounds like a really bad expectations situation for her to come into at JMU and would probably be better for her personally if Dean left after Good graduates because it may dampen expectations for the program and relieve pressure on her.  Also, bringing a radar gun to clock a well publicized pitcher doesn't make you anything worse than an enthusiastic softball fan.  That was likely the IPA's I was drinking last night talking, just know that if you ever clock my dd pitching at a game that your gun is reading 5 mph slow (lol).

The main point I will stand by though is that winning or losing a game is not always on the pitcher and while most of the DMV private school competition stinks not every team is bad year in and year out.  St Mary's Ryken will often get more than just their pitcher on the Washington Post All-met teams (I know, a lot of overrated players make that but many are as good as advertised) and the public school they regularly play, McLean is always a contender and won the toughest public school conference in Va in '16.  O'Connell losing to them 1-0 doesn't mean they didn't get good pitching.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
I know you didn't bring up the AA stuff, I was asking that somewhat rhetorically since it's obviously out there.  Even though I haven't seen the girl pitch in a few years I never bought the 68-69 mph talk either but she's not the only pitcher out there with an inflated velocity rep.  It sounds like a really bad expectations situation for her to come into at JMU and would probably be better for her personally if Dean left after Good graduates because it may dampen expectations for the program and relieve pressure on her.  Also, bringing a radar gun to clock a well publicized pitcher doesn't make you anything worse than an enthusiastic softball fan.  That was likely the IPA's I was drinking last night talking, just know that if you ever clock my dd pitching at a game that your gun is reading 5 mph slow (lol).

The main point I will stand by though is that winning or losing a game is not always on the pitcher and while most of the DMV private school competition stinks not every team is bad year in and year out.  St Mary's Ryken will often get more than just their pitcher on the Washington Post All-met teams (I know, a lot of overrated players make that but many are as good as advertised) and the public school they regularly play, McLean is always a contender and won the toughest public school conference in Va in '16.  O'Connell losing to them 1-0 doesn't mean they didn't get good pitching.


Dusty, Great post & thanks for not machine gunning me with Darts. No doubt I have been more judgemental on this kid, for whatever reason. Part of it may be for the very point you made, the pressure put on these kids. I've been screaming for years about all the false advertising, especially with the inflated velocities...which is a pet peeve of mine. I to have a daughter who pitches heading to school this Fall. So I'm not a complete drive by commentator. I have been very careful over the years about saying much at all about my kids abilities, velocities, expectations etc...it keeps me objective & keeps the pressure off her. When parents, coaches & the kids themselves start to minimize the self serving grandstanding, they will get alot less flak from boneheads like myself. When you shout from the roof tops you got a kid throwing high 60s, and a bunch of college recruiters show up en mass to gun the kid, and her game speed is only 59-61, well the coaches stop coming...and that's not good for the game. 

And sure, High School ball is whacked but, most kids love it. My daughter benefits also, albeit in a Public venue. So, keep the IPA flowing because it makes for good debates. Seems we all manage to maintain perspective even if we don't always agree. 
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #30 
I watched the jr national team in OKC this weekend against some overmatched club teams.

Some players were as advertised, some struggled against average to below average pitching, a couple appeared out of their league.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the alternate "cuts" for the WBSC world championships. I believe that is the only event they will play in where they have to reduce from 24 to 17. I believe they can stay at 24 for the World Cup.


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