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EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh


Done to bring attention to black discrimination and unusually high level of police shootings of black males. This was his stated motive, why would you interject your own version? No disrespect was shown to the symbols of freedom. Your inability to counter his demonstration without distorting his intentions confirms your lack of a cogent argument. Disagree with his intentended target(black oppression) all you want, just don't be disingenuous about what he's hoping to accomplish. He originally sat, but later knelt to keep from being overly disrespectful. 


Disingenuous? I couldn't have been clearer or more accurate in what I am saying. Let me try again, I know it's late for you.  I don't give a F about 'what he's hoping to accomplish'. I interpret his overt and obvious behavior as displaying disrespect. I don't give a F about his 'intentions'. 

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Fresh

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Reply with quote  #32 
Your interpretation means sh1t. You are fabricating an argument from false allegations. Typical conservative distortion of the facts. He has stated his reasons, just because you don't want them to be his reasons is laughable. You're just looking for a convenient foil for your alt right views. He is not disrespecting the flag.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Your interpretation means sh1t. You are fabricating an argument from false allegations. Typical conservative distortion of the facts. He has stated his reasons, just because you don't want them to be his reasons is laughable. You're just looking for a convenient foil for your alt right views. He is not disrespecting the flag.

72% of America disagree with you.

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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #34 
I did not agree with kneeling and kaepernick had not knelt in a year and 2 to 3 players were kneeling this season. No biggie.
Then president trump decides not to be president of entire usa at his rally in Alabama and instead campaign for 2020. He made a statement that even had his supporters in NFL shaking their head.
He decided to further divide the country to get accolades and high fives. It went from 3 kneeling to stevie wonder and other artists kneeling, 2 of the anthem singers kneeling at end of anthem, politicians and others in all different jobs kneeling, people all over tv kneeling, all around campuses kneeling, and nba, hockey and others speaking up. EVen had first MLBN player kneel. Over 130 players knelt and many others stayed in locker room. Sponsors came out in support as well.


Realize--
1. There are no rules for players to have to be on sidelines for anthem.
Here is the 2017 rulebook 
http://operations.nfl.com/media/2646/2017-playing-rules.pdf

2. No teams were on sidelines for anthem during regular season NFL games except 2 days after kennedy was shot in 1963 and after 9/11. Realize that NFL and defense department made a deal in 2009. Republicans McCain and flake were upset finding out national guards and army and others were paying the nfl, nascar and other sports money for patriotic acts and promotions and selling linked gear. Paid patriotism. So the nfl owners took the cash and had the players go out for national anthem, military days, and military back from deployment surprising family. 

3. Vets are split on this same as anyone else. People parade vet opinions out there like they are slapping down the 5th card in a royal flush at vegas
The steelers coach tomlin said they would not get involved in the politics and would sit out anthem in dressing room and not kneel or lock arms or anything. He let his army cet player go out for anthem.
Notice the player did not go on the field but stood at tunnel. That was to support his teammates while he was out there for the anthem. Both his parents are Spanish and he was recruited by army black knights to play football and left spain for America and played and did west point and then pro football. 

4. Sunday players and coaches and teams and fans and singers were showing solidarity against trump's comments. Many of them said as much. 

5. Uppity blacks who should be grateful. Like a mom in the old days telling her daughter to put up with domestic violence from a man because he is wealthy and he got her a new car, a beautiful home, and tons of money. Be grateful for what you got and shut up about the violence towards you. People have it worse than you. Hush.
As Dan Rather said ---":President Trump targeted African American athletes for provocation and ridicule. He has called into question their Americanness. For a President to be doing this – pouring gasoline on the embers of racial resentment – is really unspeakable. Instead of trying to reduce the potentially explosive emotions about race, he is trying to exacerbate them for his own gain.

He knows that he can use the American flag as a symbol of division and not unity. So he sows that thought.

I grant that there are many who are offended by players taking a knee during the National Anthem. That is their right, as it is the right of those who protest to have their speech protected. This is how we discuss our differences peacefully in a democracy. But calling out these players as S.O.B.s (but using the actual profane words) who should be fired, that’s a pointed attack on our Constitutional rights. And it is summoning the dark shadows of centuries of racial stereotyping."


6. And no one give me the "blacks kill more blacks so shut up about police vs blacks" line as a reason no black should protest. I don't live in bad neighborhoods nor am I in a gang or hanging at club in black communities. I am a professional and yet I have had issues and have had to have that talk with my daughter and then granddaughter. Freeze like mr. freeze hit you with a cold ray when dealing with police. If with a gun in open carry state put it in glove compartment before they get to car. No issues with black on black unless you are a young black male in those neighborhoods...otherwise white on white is most common and no one should protest immigrants when American citizens do crimes on each other more than immigrants. And Christian on Christian is more than muslim on Christian.

7. Also....read the flag codes.  Most people break them daily. Don't fly one from your vehicle unless in a parade. No use of American flag for advertising. No use of it on an athletic uniform. No use of it as clothing or bedding. No use of it for disposables like napkins (so you are not flooding up and discarding an image of flag). And no kid rock wearing a flag as a poncho or on a hat.Those are all noted as disrespectful. No nbama on flag or using any image on flag either.

I am sad that I spent weeks helping with disaster relief as a first responder paramedic in florida, Houston and mexico and our president is arguing with nba ball players and kaepernicks mom is saying she is a proud B*tch to president. Also dotard vs little rocket man which would be a better MMA fight than macgregor vs Mayweather. Everyuone on planet would pay to see those 2 fight in ring and not near nukes. Putin would challenge the winner. 


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‎"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
Fresh

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Reply with quote  #35 
Beautiful thoughts on the subject. Many differences of opinion obviously. Here's a contrasting opinion that I probably can't add anything to. I'll leave everybody with this, on this subject.



What a difference in class and consideration. 
keepinitreal

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Posts: 22,989
Reply with quote  #36 
Class yeah, low class
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce


Disingenuous? I couldn't have been clearer or more accurate in what I am saying. Let me try again, I know it's late for you.  I don't give a F about 'what he's hoping to accomplish'. I interpret his overt and obvious behavior as displaying disrespect. I don't give a F about his 'intentions'. 


Here's my class and consideration

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
uwApoligist

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Posts: 6,853
Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoenix
I did not agree with kneeling and kaepernick had not knelt in a year and 2 to 3 players were kneeling this season. No biggie.
Then president trump decides not to be president of entire usa at his rally in Alabama and instead campaign for 2020. He made a statement that even had his supporters in NFL shaking their head.
He decided to further divide the country to get accolades and high fives. It went from 3 kneeling to stevie wonder and other artists kneeling, 2 of the anthem singers kneeling at end of anthem, politicians and others in all different jobs kneeling, people all over tv kneeling, all around campuses kneeling, and nba, hockey and others speaking up. EVen had first MLBN player kneel. Over 130 players knelt and many others stayed in locker room. Sponsors came out in support as well.


Realize--
1. There are no rules for players to have to be on sidelines for anthem.
Here is the 2017 rulebook 
http://operations.nfl.com/media/2646/2017-playing-rules.pdf

2. No teams were on sidelines for anthem during regular season NFL games except 2 days after kennedy was shot in 1963 and after 9/11. Realize that NFL and defense department made a deal in 2009. Republicans McCain and flake were upset finding out national guards and army and others were paying the nfl, nascar and other sports money for patriotic acts and promotions and selling linked gear. Paid patriotism. So the nfl owners took the cash and had the players go out for national anthem, military days, and military back from deployment surprising family. 

3. Vets are split on this same as anyone else. People parade vet opinions out there like they are slapping down the 5th card in a royal flush at vegas
The steelers coach tomlin said they would not get involved in the politics and would sit out anthem in dressing room and not kneel or lock arms or anything. He let his army cet player go out for anthem.
Notice the player did not go on the field but stood at tunnel. That was to support his teammates while he was out there for the anthem. Both his parents are Spanish and he was recruited by army black knights to play football and left spain for America and played and did west point and then pro football. 

4. Sunday players and coaches and teams and fans and singers were showing solidarity against trump's comments. Many of them said as much. 

5. Uppity blacks who should be grateful. Like a mom in the old days telling her daughter to put up with domestic violence from a man because he is wealthy and he got her a new car, a beautiful home, and tons of money. Be grateful for what you got and shut up about the violence towards you. People have it worse than you. Hush.
As Dan Rather said ---":President Trump targeted African American athletes for provocation and ridicule. He has called into question their Americanness. For a President to be doing this – pouring gasoline on the embers of racial resentment – is really unspeakable. Instead of trying to reduce the potentially explosive emotions about race, he is trying to exacerbate them for his own gain.

He knows that he can use the American flag as a symbol of division and not unity. So he sows that thought.

I grant that there are many who are offended by players taking a knee during the National Anthem. That is their right, as it is the right of those who protest to have their speech protected. This is how we discuss our differences peacefully in a democracy. But calling out these players as S.O.B.s (but using the actual profane words) who should be fired, that’s a pointed attack on our Constitutional rights. And it is summoning the dark shadows of centuries of racial stereotyping."


6. And no one give me the "blacks kill more blacks so shut up about police vs blacks" line as a reason no black should protest. I don't live in bad neighborhoods nor am I in a gang or hanging at club in black communities. I am a professional and yet I have had issues and have had to have that talk with my daughter and then granddaughter. Freeze like mr. freeze hit you with a cold ray when dealing with police. If with a gun in open carry state put it in glove compartment before they get to car. No issues with black on black unless you are a young black male in those neighborhoods...otherwise white on white is most common and no one should protest immigrants when American citizens do crimes on each other more than immigrants. And Christian on Christian is more than muslim on Christian.

7. Also....read the flag codes.  Most people break them daily. Don't fly one from your vehicle unless in a parade. No use of American flag for advertising. No use of it on an athletic uniform. No use of it as clothing or bedding. No use of it for disposables like napkins (so you are not flooding up and discarding an image of flag). And no kid rock wearing a flag as a poncho or on a hat.Those are all noted as disrespectful. No nbama on flag or using any image on flag either.

I am sad that I spent weeks helping with disaster relief as a first responder paramedic in florida, Houston and mexico and our president is arguing with nba ball players and kaepernicks mom is saying she is a proud B*tch to president. Also dotard vs little rocket man which would be a better MMA fight than macgregor vs Mayweather. Everyuone on planet would pay to see those 2 fight in ring and not near nukes. Putin would challenge the winner. 


72% of America believe that standing for our National Anthem is done to pay respect to our military troops and veterans.   Should not be a surprise when that same 72% view sitting or kneeling during the national anthem as a direct afront to our military and veterans.

No one is saying they do not have a right to protest.  But we have a right to think they are abusing their platform by doing so.   

We are also not disagreeing that some blacks in the inner city are not getting a fair shake.  We are merely asking them to find a different approach. 

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
Beautiful thoughts on the subject. Many differences of opinion obviously. Here's a contrasting opinion that I probably can't add anything to. I'll leave everybody with this, on this subject.

What a difference in class and consideration. 
No one cares
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I'll leave everybody;

Please do.

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uwApoligist

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Posts: 6,853
Reply with quote  #41 
Why is Alejandro Villanueva not allowed to stand for the national anthem?
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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #42 
As is well known free speech is only tolerated by the left if it's the correct speech
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uwApoligist

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Posts: 6,853
Reply with quote  #43 
What if there is a rule, in the NFL rule book?
Quote:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.


What do you think they were trying to accomplish with that?

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #44 
We all know what Fresh thinks of rules in a rule book.
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #45 

“I don’t know if the most effective way is to sit down during the national anthem with a country that’s providing you freedom, providing you $16 million a year...when there are black minorities that are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan for less than $20,000 a year," Villanueva told ESPN in 2016. 

He added: “I will be the first one to hold hands with Colin Kaepernick and do something about the way minorities are being treated in the United States, the injustice that is happening with police brutality, the justice system, inequalities in pay. You can’t do it by looking away from the people that are trying to protect our freedom and our country.”

uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #46 
Look out.  Real man coming through!

[Dw5kdOU] 

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
PDad

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
What if there is a rule, in the NFL rule book?

What do you think they were trying to accomplish with that?

Same old uwA - propagating crap from the internet. That quote is not from the NFL rule book. In fact, it doesn't even mention the anthem. Here is the closest thing:

ARTICLE 1. KICKOFF ON SCHEDULE. Both teams must be on the field to kick off at the scheduled time for the start of each half. Prior to the start of the game, both teams are required to appear on the field at least 10 minutes prior to the scheduled kickoff in order to ensure sufficient time for proper warm-up. Designated members of the officiating crew must notify both head coaches personally of the scheduled time for kickoff prior to the start of each half.
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #48 
Classic UWA
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad

Same old uwA - propagating crap from the internet. That quote is not from the NFL rule book. In fact, it doesn't even mention the anthem. Here is the closest thing:

ARTICLE 1. KICKOFF ON SCHEDULE. Both teams must be on the field to kick off at the scheduled time for the start of each half. Prior to the start of the game, both teams are required to appear on the field at least 10 minutes prior to the scheduled kickoff in order to ensure sufficient time for proper warm-up. Designated members of the officiating crew must notify both head coaches personally of the scheduled time for kickoff prior to the start of each half.


You are correct.  My quote is from the Game Operation Manual. 

Initial poster was referencing this WaPo article:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/were-not-going-to-play-politics-steelers-mike-tomlin-says-team-wont-take-the-field-for-anthem/?utm_term=.be587881ad75

WaPo was using the term league rules.  As in "Under the league rule, the failure to be on the field for the anthem may result in discipline such as a fine... "

If it is an incorrect term, cause I kind of see the point you are making, maybe a letter to the editor at the WaPo would help assuage your hurts. 

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #50 
PDad

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Reply with quote  #51 
LMAO at the notion that WaPo article was the origin of the widespread viral attribution to the rule book. The Game Operation Manual is a real thing and unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available online like the rule book.

NFL made this announcement today - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/25/no-discipline-for-anthem-skipping-teams-as-nfl-fires-back-at-trump/?utm_term=.3d0f9016ecd0.
uwApoligist

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Posts: 6,853
Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad
LMAO at the notion that WaPo article was the origin of the widespread viral attribution to the rule book. The Game Operation Manual is a real thing and unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available online like the rule book.

NFL made this announcement today - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/25/no-discipline-for-anthem-skipping-teams-as-nfl-fires-back-at-trump/?utm_term=.3d0f9016ecd0.

You are correct. 

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarrator
I want to order that guys jersey


https://sports.yahoo.com/alejandro-villanuevas-jersey-becomes-overnight-best-seller-stands-anthem-150312271.html
Alejandro Villanueva's jersey becomes an overnight best-seller after he stands for anthem

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
uwApoligist

Registered:
Posts: 6,853
Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad
LMAO at the notion that WaPo article was the origin of the widespread viral attribution to the rule book. The Game Operation Manual is a real thing and unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available online like the rule book.

NFL made this announcement today - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/25/no-discipline-for-anthem-skipping-teams-as-nfl-fires-back-at-trump/?utm_term=.3d0f9016ecd0.

Are your hurts assuaged?

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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #55 
[nCeuC2u] 
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Can always tell when fresh is drunk and tired. Gets low energy and says 'sh1t' a lot,
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #56 
Any lib making the argument that this is a free speech issue can suck it. The NFL is a private business and the players are employees. They have no "right"to free speech in the workplace. This isn't the government limiting their speech or expression. No different than countless other people that have lost theirs jobs for speaking their mind on the clock. Remember the guy from Google. Libs cheered his termination
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TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #57 
Question for Fresh (stolen from Sarah Sanders):

Shouldn't the players protest the cops protecting them during the game instead of the flag if "police brutality" is really their cause?
mikec

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Reply with quote  #58 
Big IF here - IF the team owner wants them to follow a certain code of conduct not detrimental to the brand.

If the owner doesn't care, the players can do what they want.

Of course - if this goes on, teams will feel the hurt financially.  Then they can all claim they are some sort of civil rights heroes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spazsdad
Any lib making the argument that this is a free speech issue can suck it. The NFL is a private business and the players are employees. They have no "right"to free speech in the workplace. This isn't the government limiting their speech or expression. No different than countless other people that have lost theirs jobs for speaking their mind on the clock. Remember the guy from Google. Libs cheered his termination
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #59 
With more thought, I thought Trump's tweets calling the players SOBs was completely out of line.  Unnecessary and unproductive.

Having said that, the owners should do the following.  They should meet with their players and propose that they stop kneeling and protesting.  In exchange, each owner will coordinate and fund a permanent task force of players and local police to address the problems created by community policing.  Since most teams are located in the major urban areas where most of the problems occur, this would be a positive step toward addressing the very concerns that I think the players are protesting.  Since it is a local issue, Trump should just shut up and support the effort.
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Big IF here - IF the team owner wants them to follow a certain code of conduct not detrimental to the brand.

If the owner doesn't care, the players can do what they want.

Of course - if this goes on, teams will feel the hurt financially.  Then they can all claim they are some sort of civil rights heroes.



I agree it's up to the owners to police the issue.
I was responding to posts saying that those on the right are being hypocrites for not defending their right to freedom of speech. The constitution is a foreign entity to most on the left

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