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CoachZ

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Posts: 683
Reply with quote  #121 
XYZ — for someone who came on here to blast people for making suppositions without facts, you’re making quite a few yourself.

The worst of your suppositions is that you are leveling accusations of serious recruiting violations by Miss Saile based on your supposition that “no one would leave without another offer”. There are situations where “anywhere but here” is not unreasonable. It is also not difficult to ascertain that many universities around the country are in need of pitching without getting any specific offers from a school. Do you really think that all the schools in the country are going to say no to a kid of her caliber? I don’t. It is on this basis that she decided to request the opportunity to pursue her education elsewhere.
Your accusations are rude, unfounded, and unfair. It has been very difficult for her not to know where she may be headed, but as hard as it has been, she has followed the rules and spoken to NO COLLEGE COACHES (or their “representatives”).
As for your accusations involving myself, Mr. Griggs, and Coach Torina — as a former TB coach in a different geographical location, Griggs does have occasion to talk with different college coaches than i do. So, while he may know of some different schools who are looking for pitching, who would be dumb enough to have a call including a college coach and post about it on a public forum. Seriously?!
As for accountability, yes, athletes do need to be held accountable. Miss Saile has been a very diligent worker and has definitely “kept up her end of the bargain”. As for Mr. Rebhan’s accountability, I won’t offer specific details to the situation in this case as they are not mine to give. I will just say, being the mother of two young men, i would be mortified if one of them treated a young woman the way that this person has treated the young women he has been entrusted to be accountable for and to. If details come to light (the details in my possession are from multiple parties, so please don’t point a finger at Miss Saile), Rebhan and his AD will soon go the Missouri way.
Just by the way, I’m going to take a page out of the Griggs manual (though it is definitely not my style) and call shenanigans on your “I’m just a third party with outsider’s perspective” line of stuff. Your rhetoric is too familiar. Best of luck whoever you are.
Nextyear

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Posts: 227
Reply with quote  #122 
I think you make an interesting point here about accountability but there is one thing you might want to consider. In almost every situation the rules are slanted toward the NCAA, the school and the coach over the player. Also In the end if a coach wants a player out of their program they can make them leave even a a power 5 program. They have to much control over SAs lives where a player will stay if they know they are not wanted.

If we are going to talk about commitment let’s make if both ways. If a coach wants to leave let’s make them get a release from all players on the roster that they went into their living room and promised them they would be their coach. Maybe the coach should have to sit out a year to make the move without permission from those players. I wonder if that would make them less attractive to the new school looking for a coach. Does that sound Idiotic? Ofcourse ......but Is it any different than the standard the players are held to during a transfer?

I can understand why it’s heartbreaking for a coach to lose a talent like Saile or Hanson. All the big schools missed them and the coach did their job recruiting and developing them. Every time they take the mound they give you a chance to win. But do you want a kid on your team and in your dugout that doesn’t want to be there any longer. To me blocking a transfer when a kid wants to leave just seems petty.
1janiedough

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Posts: 3,350
Reply with quote  #123 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextyear
I think you make an interesting point here about accountability but there is one thing you might want to consider. In almost every situation the rules are slanted toward the NCAA, the school and the coach over the player. Also In the end if a coach wants a player out of their program they can make them leave even a a power 5 program. They have to much control over SAs lives where a player will stay if they know they are not wanted.

If we are going to talk about commitment let’s make if both ways. If a coach wants to leave let’s make them get a release from all players on the roster that they went into their living room and promised them they would be their coach. Maybe the coach should have to sit out a year to make the move without permission from those players. I wonder if that would make them less attractive to the new school looking for a coach. Does that sound Idiotic? Ofcourse ......but Is it any different than the standard the players are held to during a transfer?

I can understand why it’s heartbreaking for a coach to lose a talent like Saile or Hanson. All the big schools missed them and the coach did their job recruiting and developing them. Every time they take the mound they give you a chance to win. But do you want a kid on your team and in your dugout that doesn’t want to be there any longer. To me blocking a transfer when a kid wants to leave just seems petty.



Stop putting players on the same level as the coach.
PBLC20

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Posts: 204
Reply with quote  #124 
I agree with the posters above about everything being tilted toward coaches and schools.  But the difficulty for coaches (who are trying to make a living doing this) is when bigger schools are recruiting their players through back channels.  What do you do at that point?  Do you toss your ethics away, break the rules and recruit from smaller schools just as was done to you?  A coach who follows the rules is at a disadvantage.  As a result, I am in favor of just tossing the transfer/recruiting rules aside and let it be a free-for-all.  Recruit anybody else's players you like and everyone is free to transfer with no penalty from the end of the season until Aug. 15 (or so) every year.

At least this way everyone is on an equal playing field.
CajunAmos

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Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #125 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextyear
I think you make an interesting point here about accountability but there is one thing you might want to consider. In almost every situation the rules are slanted toward the NCAA, the school and the coach over the player. Also In the end if a coach wants a player out of their program they can make them leave even a a power 5 program. They have to much control over SAs lives where a player will stay if they know they are not wanted.

If we are going to talk about commitment let’s make if both ways. If a coach wants to leave let’s make them get a release from all players on the roster that they went into their living room and promised them they would be their coach. Maybe the coach should have to sit out a year to make the move without permission from those players. I wonder if that would make them less attractive to the new school looking for a coach. Does that sound Idiotic? Ofcourse ......but Is it any different than the standard the players are held to during a transfer?

I can understand why it’s heartbreaking for a coach to lose a talent like Saile or Hanson. All the big schools missed them and the coach did their job recruiting and developing them. Every time they take the mound they give you a chance to win. But do you want a kid on your team and in your dugout that doesn’t want to be there any longer. To me blocking a transfer when a kid wants to leave just seems petty.


Don't think you're making them stay at your school or in your dugout, you're just making them sit out from playing at their new school of choice.
Nextyear

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Posts: 227
Reply with quote  #126 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Stop putting players on the same level as the coach.


I’m not putting the players in the same level as the coach. I’m saying it’s not an even playing field. I’m responding to the poster that said it shows a lack of commitment to transfer and my point is commitment goes both ways. Coaches should be able to leave and further their career. That’s a no brainer. Unhappy players should also be able to move on.

As far as bigger schools poaching kids on rosters through a third party why are they allowed to do this? So you are telling me a college coach can not talk to a third party about PSA until Sept 1 junior year but they can talk to third parties about kids on scholarship at other NCAA schools before they have a release? Does that make sense?
PH2

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Posts: 523
Reply with quote  #127 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachXYZ


Seems as though this is NOT the case, See comments below.
If a player gets cut they get to maintain their scholarship.
So NO they should not be allowed to freely leave at will. just another reason when a player is developed by their coach regardless of mid major or major and they want to leave for greener pastures they should not be able to just up and go.


Players don't keep their scholarships!  Not outside of the P5 4-year scholarship schools.  You're talking about a mid-major (this whole  discussion started about FIU/Saile).  On my kid's team I know of 3 girls who were not asked back.  I don't know their individual money situations but I guarantee they aren't keeping any athletic money.  They weren't bad kids, just didn't contribute enough to keep around and tie up precious scholarship money.
PH2

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Posts: 523
Reply with quote  #128 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextyear


I’m not putting the players in the same level as the coach. I’m saying it’s not an even playing field. I’m responding to the poster that said it shows a lack of commitment to transfer and my point is commitment goes both ways. Coaches should be able to leave and further their career. That’s a no brainer. Unhappy players should also be able to move on.

As far as bigger schools poaching kids on rosters through a third party why are they allowed to do this? So you are telling me a college coach can not talk to a third party about PSA until Sept 1 junior year but they can talk to third parties about kids on scholarship at other NCAA schools before they have a release? Does that make sense?


They can't, but they do.  Just like under the new early recruiting rules it will happen.
PH2

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Posts: 523
Reply with quote  #129 

Anyone who has a kid who's played ball has probably seen - either personally, or up-close with one of your kid's teammates - the "delicate dance" of transfer talk.  For some kids, they want a release and will figure it out later, but have a good idea of who they will reach out to.  Some seriously consider not even playing again, just finding a school near home and becoming a regular student.  Others use third parties (TB coaches, etc.) to reach out to schools to gauge interest.  Depends on the specifics whether names are dropped.  I've seen it both ways - sometimes, just asking if there is interest in a transfer IF or OF or P under the right conditions, if money is available, etc. 

I'm sure those discussions run the gamut of very general to specific depending on the college coach's comfort level and familiarity with the third party.  I assume the less specific the information, the more plausible deniability the coach has about getting information about a player who is still on a roster.  If done right, those conversations can be "hypothetical" and the coach can get a good idea about who is available without names being mentioned (knowing year and the TB coach's team).

Tennhorn

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Posts: 69
Reply with quote  #130 
At the P5 programs, scholarships are basically guaranteed for 4 years....unfortunately, that is not the case for the mid major kids. Each year, during exit interviews, money for the next season is discussed. At my daughters school, 3 kids had their money cut drastically. All 3 players are hard workers, and perform well in the classroom, however, their performance on the field was not good. Coaches explained this to them and all 3 kids are returning for next season.

I feel like this is a difficult situation for all parties involved, but in this case, the coach did a good job of being up front and honest with the players.
Prowler

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Posts: 1,513
Reply with quote  #131 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennhorn
At the P5 programs, scholarships are basically guaranteed for 4 years....unfortunately, that is not the case for the mid major kids. Each year, during exit interviews, money for the next season is discussed. At my daughters school, 3 kids had their money cut drastically. All 3 players are hard workers, and perform well in the classroom, however, their performance on the field was not good. Coaches explained this to them and all 3 kids are returning for next season.

I feel like this is a difficult situation for all parties involved, but in this case, the coach did a good job of being up front and honest with the players.


I have mixed feelings. I’m pro-player, but a student on a math scholarship surely wouldn’t keep it if he/she were making C’s in math courses.

A player on an athletics scholarship should also have to perform at a level to keep it, but if the problem is the coach mis-evaluated and picked a player not capable of performing at the collegiate level that’s not the kid’s fault if she’s working hard and doing everything asked.
PH2

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Posts: 523
Reply with quote  #132 
That's exactly the scenario across many non-P5 programs - which is why I have no problem with the 2-way street approach to free movement of players.

The other thing I take exception to in the original poster's comment was the idea that the player wasn't scouted by or good enough for P5 and overperformed at the mid-major, and that it automatically had to be the coach who got the best out of them or coached them up to be better than they were coming in.  One, that's not necessarily the case - many P5 programs use the big TB teams as their pipelines and don't get to see (or care to look at) kids from smaller teams.  There are plenty of good players who simply don't get seen.  Two, again it's the 2-way street.  If the coach is responsible for players overperforming and can demand loyalty from the player, what about players who underperform?  It follows that it's the coach who is responsible for that too, right?  Yet the coaches have no problem cutting athletic money or simply dismissing the player from the team.

It does suck that mid-major teams are essentially minor league scouting services for the P5 teams, but there's really no way to stop that without limiting a kid's ability to go wherever they want to go.  As a mid-major, if you happen to find a hidden gem, you just have to hope she's the kind of kid who wants to stay for 4 years and isn't automatically looking to take a step up.  In a lot of circumstances, that really is the difference between successful and unsuccessful mid-majors in any given conference (putting aside the unsuccessful programs who can't get those players to begin with).
CajunAmos

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Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #133 
There are a number of transfers from P5 to so called mid-major schools who are not granted releases to play right away. It's not a one sided proposition.
CoachXYZ

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Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #134 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
XYZ — for someone who came on here to blast people for making suppositions without facts, you’re making quite a few yourself.

The worst of your suppositions is that you are leveling accusations of serious recruiting violations by Miss Saile based on your supposition that “no one would leave without another offer”. There are situations where “anywhere but here” is not unreasonable. It is also not difficult to ascertain that many universities around the country are in need of pitching without getting any specific offers from a school. Do you really think that all the schools in the country are going to say no to a kid of her caliber? I don’t. It is on this basis that she decided to request the opportunity to pursue her education elsewhere.
Your accusations are rude, unfounded, and unfair. It has been very difficult for her not to know where she may be headed, but as hard as it has been, she has followed the rules and spoken to NO COLLEGE COACHES (or their “representatives”).
As for your accusations involving myself, Mr. Griggs, and Coach Torina — as a former TB coach in a different geographical location, Griggs does have occasion to talk with different college coaches than i do. So, while he may know of some different schools who are looking for pitching, who would be dumb enough to have a call including a college coach and post about it on a public forum. Seriously?!
As for accountability, yes, athletes do need to be held accountable. Miss Saile has been a very diligent worker and has definitely “kept up her end of the bargain”. As for Mr. Rebhan’s accountability, I won’t offer specific details to the situation in this case as they are not mine to give. I will just say, being the mother of two young men, i would be mortified if one of them treated a young woman the way that this person has treated the young women he has been entrusted to be accountable for and to. If details come to light (the details in my possession are from multiple parties, so please don’t point a finger at Miss Saile), Rebhan and his AD will soon go the Missouri way.
Just by the way, I’m going to take a page out of the Griggs manual (though it is definitely not my style) and call shenanigans on your “I’m just a third party with outsider’s perspective” line of stuff. Your rhetoric is too familiar. Best of luck whoever you are.


CoachZ Why so hostile? I asked you some honest questions with regards to a VERY talented player. I did not attack you, Ms. Saile or anyone else in any of my comments or questions.
Heck, I couldn't even tell you where she went to HS or what travel ball team she played for, I never saw her throw a single pitch until she was in Gainesville. Therefore, I thought my question about why no D1 offers was a legitimate question and who would better know then her pitching coach, No need to jump down my throat. I was Just wondering why she slipped through the cracks and was missed by so many coaches, Geez!
I think 99% of colleges would welcome her with open arms, that was never a question on my behalf. 
Do I think that she personally has spoken to another coach directly, NO I do not.
Do I think someone has put feelers out there for her? In my opinion it would be crazy for any SA to not have feelers out there before requesting a release.
I threw a jab at Griggs as a joke come one man, lighten up. I guess I swung and missed on that one?
Not too mention I know there is no way on Gods green earth would Beth do anything to jeopardize her job or her school. And why would her talking to Griggs be an issue anyway?
You personally attacking a D1 coach by name (or anyone else) on a public forum like this with what I would call some pretty serious inferred accusations is way off base, you may disagree and that's your right but I don't think this is the place for it.
I will leave you with this, If you are the one that made Ms. Saile the pitcher she is, you are too good to be on here throwing a temper tantrum. Get off the net and get back on the bucket and develop the next stud pitcher out there because obviously there are not enough of them.
Take a moment relax, breathe and enjoy life it is way too short.
I wish you all the best!
CoachXYZ

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Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #135 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextyear
I think you make an interesting point here about accountability but there is one thing you might want to consider. In almost every situation the rules are slanted toward the NCAA, the school and the coach over the player. Also In the end if a coach wants a player out of their program they can make them leave even a a power 5 program. They have to much control over SAs lives where a player will stay if they know they are not wanted.

If we are going to talk about commitment let’s make if both ways. If a coach wants to leave let’s make them get a release from all players on the roster that they went into their living room and promised them they would be their coach. Maybe the coach should have to sit out a year to make the move without permission from those players. I wonder if that would make them less attractive to the new school looking for a coach. Does that sound Idiotic? Ofcourse ......but Is it any different than the standard the players are held to during a transfer?

I can understand why it’s heartbreaking for a coach to lose a talent like Saile or Hanson. All the big schools missed them and the coach did their job recruiting and developing them. Every time they take the mound they give you a chance to win. But do you want a kid on your team and in your dugout that doesn’t want to be there any longer. To me blocking a transfer when a kid wants to leave just seems petty.


I think if a coach has a contract at ANY level of sport they should be required to fulfill that contract. You want to leave you pay the consequences. I cant think of a corporation that doesn't have non-compete clauses with in their contracts with Key employees and management. You FOR SURE can not take your assistance and employees (aka Asst coaches and players)
CoachZ

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Posts: 683
Reply with quote  #136 
Posted by Coach XYZ


PS: She knows where she is going, or at least where she wants to go. NO way does any student athlete request a release and not have already had discussions with their options. And I would venture to guess that none of these schools mentioned on this thread are ones she has had talks with.







I was pretty clear about why i considered your post to be rude and out of line. You accused this young woman (and a few others) of serious recruiting violations as though you know it for a fact in a public forum frequented by many in the know including some college coaches. No, that’s not funny. Nice use of condescension though as a way of not being accountable for your words.
her1fan

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Posts: 77
Reply with quote  #137 
When would be the best time to ask for a release?  During exit interviews or after you have come home and really thought about it. Is there every really a right time?  
DunninLA

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Posts: 5,129
Reply with quote  #138 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBLC20
I agree with the posters above about everything being tilted toward coaches and schools.  .
as it is always tilted toward those in possession of the money.

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qui tacet consentire videtur
leftyworld

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Posts: 27
Reply with quote  #139 
Kellie White leaving Utah St heading to Long Beach St
MOJOERASER

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Posts: 342
Reply with quote  #140 
So which stud Missouri pitcher can we get this year?
Kurosawa

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Posts: 3,139
Reply with quote  #141 
I'm assuming that she wants to go to Oklahoma, with both Parker and Lowary (a transfer) graduating, joining Conrad (a transfer) as the only other pitcher currently on the roster. No need for any contact violations - she only needs to read their roster. The problem with untrammeled transfers is that non-P5 schools like FIU could be relegated to being farm teams for the top P5 schools. If a school chooses to deny permission (to contact) and a release, and take the heat for it, that is perfectly within the rules. At worst, she'll have to sit out a season.
Kurosawa

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Posts: 3,139
Reply with quote  #142 
Did Tarr deny Tannon Snow a release to go play for Clint at Auburn, after she (and her sister) had switched her commitment earlier from ASU to UW? Regardless, she had to sit out last season. Lo and behold: No Clint and no WCWS for Auburn, while UW is in the WCWS for the second year running. The grass isn't always greener.
all4AU

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Posts: 859
Reply with quote  #143 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
Did Tarr deny Tannon Snow a release to go play for Clint at Auburn, after she (and her sister) had switched her commitment earlier from ASU to UW? Regardless, she had to sit out last season. Lo and behold: No Clint and no WCWS for Auburn, while UW is in the WCWS for the second year running. The grass isn't always greener.


If I’m not mistaken, I believe Tarr released Snow. It was her epilepsy that kept her off the field in 2017.

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War Eagle!
smcouvillion

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Posts: 359
Reply with quote  #144 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
I'm assuming that she wants to go to Oklahoma, with both Parker and Lowary (a transfer) graduating, joining Conrad (a transfer) as the only other pitcher currently on the roster. No need for any contact violations - she only needs to read their roster. The problem with untrammeled transfers is that non-P5 schools like FIU could be relegated to being farm teams for the top P5 schools. If a school chooses to deny permission (to contact) and a release, and take the heat for it, that is perfectly within the rules. At worst, she'll have to sit out a season.


What about Mariah Lopez and Oklahoma's so called new ace Freshman, #1 Hot 100 Player according to FloSoftball? I think her name is Brooke Vestals. Also, I don't think Shannon Saile would be interested in transferring there. I think she would rather stay in Florida. Maybe FAU, maybe FSU, maybe USF, maybe UCF, maybe UF. Too many good schools for her to play at in her home state, where she gets cheaper tuition. Who even knows what athletic scholarship she could get out of state. She would probably still have to pay double to play out of state.
3leftturns

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Posts: 15,508
Reply with quote  #145 
Saile could get a full from any P5 school that doesn't have double-barrel stud incumbents next year
Grindz

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Posts: 864
Reply with quote  #146 
Send her to BR
aojr03

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Posts: 402
Reply with quote  #147 
Ya'll already know where she's goin.    [image] 
3leftturns

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Posts: 15,508
Reply with quote  #148 
Yeah, that may be a Chocolate Thunder backboard-breaker
aojr03

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Posts: 402
Reply with quote  #149 
From LoveTron no less.
3leftturns

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Posts: 15,508
Reply with quote  #150 
😃
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