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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #151 
bluedog - Your endeavor is a noble enterprise from where I sit, but there are so many that see killing as the simplest answer to conflict, whether it be mental, physical, or political.  Sometimes I agree with the simplicity while I would prefer otherwise.  I am no Pollyanna.  I guess there's still some of what Daddy told me running through my blood.  He said, "Son, don't start a fight, but if someone starts one with you, you finish it".  The question is just how to do that when we are talking about nuclear warfare and not just a simple fistfight.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #152 
Joisey, with second-strike capabilities being the reality, if a nation wants to arm themselves, then, can you say they don't have the right to arm themselves?.......My thoughts are to keep as close an eye on Israel, as on Iran.....    
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #153 
JG - we aren't yet talking about nuclear war when it comes to Iran. But the more we appease them, and the more we allow their nuclear progress, the sooner we will be having that exact conversation, which is indeed harrowing, to say the least, and as such, must be avoided.

A nuclear arms race in the middle east is by far the worst option, but that is exactly what will happen if Iran is allowed to continue.

Also, it's not a "war or nothing" conversation. There are plenty of steps in between, some of which appeared to have some impact, but were abandoned to a great extent by Obama.

Complete isolation of the Iranian regime may not be the best option, but it beats facing a nuclear confrontation down the road. 

 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #154 
in Blue - True, but we must also consider not only the potential but the culture that controls the red button.  Remember the Kamikazis from WW2 and the suicide bombers of today?  People willing to martyr themselves, especially for a "religious" cause,  see retribution as not punishment, but rather reward.  The mindset that controls the use of power is a very important part of what Bluedog refers to as "keeping an eye on Israel as well as Iran".  I once, years ago, did a major white paper on "The Arab-Israeli Conflict", and when I received first level material from both, it was as though it came from two different planets, both positive that they were the good guys and the other folks were the bad guys. "For East is East and West is West, and ner the twain shall meet" - Kipling.   
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
mikec

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
"For East is East and West is West, and ner the twain shall meet" - Kipling.   


They meet when the (mid)East exports its terrorism to the West.
woody

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Reply with quote  #156 
Sorry JG, but I don't remember Israel attacking all of its bordering nations in attempt to annihilate them. Perhaps you could tell us which country was on the defensive and was being attcked by multiple nations at one time.
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #157 
Woody - We're talking perspective here.  Many Arabs believe that (Israel-Palistine?) shouldn't even exist and thus the "Zionists" should be "pushed into the sea", whereas the words of the song Exodus gives another impression, "This land is mine, God gave this land to me". 1947 was a pivotal year for implementation of an interpretation of the Balfour Declaration.  Culture clash was and is inevitable as the frames of reference are vastly different.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #158 
" Culture clash was and is inevitable"

That's....what....I'm....tryin'.....to....tell....ya. 
Deal with it

joisey, you are one big generality

__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #159 
What gets lost is the fact that the Israeli Zionists, under the leadership of Netanyahu, wanna push the Arabs into the sea......They even want America to help them do it!....Hopefully, regime change in Israel will alleviate some of that!!
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #160 
Real - Yep.  It's called "seeing the big picture and trying to understand the particular perspectives involved".  Of course one can always see the world through his own perspective alone and the generality be damned because he has the only "truth" locked up.  It is a matter of approach to reality.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #161 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
What gets lost is the fact that the Israeli Zionists, under the leadership of Netanyahu, wanna push the Arabs into the sea......They even want America to help them do it!....Hopefully, regime change in Israel will alleviate some of that!!


Except that for the last many decades, it's the Israelis who keep giving in and it's Arabs who always renege on deals.  Dog - you have it all backward which is not surprising given your alarming paranoia.


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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #162 
The Zionists wrote the book on renege.......Last spring, they reneged on a prisoner release deal.....But, there are many more instances.....
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #163 
JG - since you mentioned the big picture and all perspectives involved, what is your perspective as an American?

Do you oppose a state for Jews? Did you when it happened? You were an adult then, right, and knew what was happening? Did you even care about the creation of Israel? Do you care now? Would you rather Israel didn't exist and the Jews were without a homeland?

But now let's forget about Israel for a time, and focus on your perspective of Iran and it's relationship with the US, and vice versa. They have been attacking the US and US interests since the ayatollah came to power. Do you support Iran's perspective re the US? It's easy to see it, they aren't exactly shy about how they view the US and the West. The Great Satan seems to be one of their favorite ways of referring to America. Do you agree? Do you empathize with this regime that has avowed the US as an enemy, and called for our destruction? Or do you think the US (and the world) would be better off without countries like Iran constantly threatening us?

Because at some point you have to believe in something. You can't merely exist forever in some platitudinous ether of "see all perspectives." Do you have an actual opinion on this subject?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #164 
in Blue - I do apologize.  I just spent half an hour writing answers and explanations to your questions.  I was quite proud of it as it said exactly what I wanted to say.  My computer has somehow deposited it in cyber space, and I'm pissed big time. There is no way I can reproduce it as my muse has fled, but I wanted you to know that I had not ignored what you wrote.  Truly sorry about the result !!!!  Frustrating !!!!
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
keepinitreal

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Posts: 27,891
Reply with quote  #165 
joisey, You may have signed in under your other handle.  One of those characters in a movie, alter egos such as Early grayce or Tyler Durden.  I think I'll create my alter ego, Cool Hand Luke.  Just our secret, don't tell anyone
__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
ForeverInBlue

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Posts: 10,335
Reply with quote  #166 
JG - I feel ya buddy. That has happened to me on numerous occasions, and I know from experience you can never get it back just the way you want it. Expletives were invented for such occasions. 

JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #167 
Real - Many moons ago a friend introduced me to this site.  I didn't know how to register but the owner walked me through it and he said that I needed a "handle" instead of my full name which I had entered, so "Jersey Guy" popped into my head and I typed that in (actually I was born and dragged up outside of Pittsburgh, Pa. but lived in Jersey for 36 years where I ran softball schools for females for 25 years, hence the handle) .  That has been for many years my handle here, and I have never used another.  I am aware that others have, but I have no need to.  No need for duplicity here.  If you want to be "Cool Hand Luke", go ahead.  You could even talk with yourself then, reinforce your attitudes, pat yourself on the back, etc.  It could be like having your own personal friend who reinforces what you write and think, and who proves you "right" every time.    [rofl]  [wave] 
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #168 
Or, just another name to disagree with me........[smile]
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #169 
I'm still trying to figure out Earlygrayce's other handle.  He has one here and one he has used for years on the softball side.  I have narrowed it down to 2 people, his daughter/daughters played collegiate softball but have completed college, I know that much.

Thanks again joisey for the preaching opportunity.  I don't talk with myself, I have you and dewy hanging on for my every post

__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
EarlyGrayce

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Posts: 5,708
Reply with quote  #170 
"A Long History of Right Wing Mayhem". Although it's arguably a hatchet job on the GOP, it has quite a few interesting historical tidbits.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/none-dare-call-it-treason-tom-cotton-iran-and-old-gop-ideas-20150316

 

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"Kazoo, clean up on aisle Dewey."

woody

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Reply with quote  #171 
EG, JG, is this is the same magazine that published the "A Rape on Campus" article, and then retracted it, and wiped egg off it's editorial staff's face? A beacon of truth, and information for the masses.
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #172 
Arguably a hatchet job... LMFAO! Good one!

The good news, of course, is that Cotton still has enough Democrats for a veto proof bill. [smile]
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #173 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
EG, JG, is this is the same magazine that published the "A Rape on Campus" article, and then retracted it, and wiped egg off it's editorial staff's face? A beacon of truth, and information for the masses.


Can't argue with that. But tell me what statement in this article is untrue. The political interventionist history? Nixon/kennedy/lbj/truman/reagan stuff? Saying 'Barack Obama' 74 times during a speech? I agree RS has published things that have been untrue. I want to know what in this article is untrue.

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"Kazoo, clean up on aisle Dewey."

EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
Arguably a hatchet job... LMFAO! Good one!

The good news, of course, is that Cotton still has enough Democrats for a veto proof bill. [smile]


Guilty as charged. I debated over whether to use 'arguably' or 'decidedly' and thought I would err on the side of neutrality. [wink]

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"Kazoo, clean up on aisle Dewey."

woody

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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
EG, JG, is this is the same magazine that published the "A Rape on Campus" article, and then retracted it, and wiped egg off it's editorial staff's face? A beacon of truth, and information for the masses.


Can't argue with that. But tell me what statement in this article is untrue. The political interventionist history? Nixon/kennedy/lbj/truman/reagan stuff? Saying 'Barack Obama' 74 times during a speech? I agree RS has published things that have been untrue. I want to know what in this article is untrue.


"CPAC is a bubble of conservative neuroses, improbably packed into a weekend at a Maryland resort called the Gaylord. American power abuts the certitude that everyone in America is going to die tomorrow. The triumphalism of the American Dream, indivisible from conservatism, is as axiomatic as the fact that America has been destroyed by homosocialists. Sitting next to noted death walrus John Bolton, Cotton fit right in.

The CPAC conference room was standing-room only, stuffy with faint sweat, hot worsted wool and heavy breathing for boilerplate comments you could have predicted before you crossed the threshold. Cotton – who looks appropriately like Anthony Perkins in Psycho – proudly likened America to Rome, an empire that slowly tore itself apart over for-profit foreign wars, external threats leveraged to drown out domestic discontent, revenue diverted from infrastructure."

"Conventional wisdom suggests that Cotton wrote his clownshoes letter to Tehran to give leverage to hardline anti-American elements within the Iran government to pull out of any further talks. "You hate and mistrust us," it seems to say, "well, let me assure you, you're right. We're gonna do a dickhead 180 on this agreement on Friday, January 20th, 2017." Cotton is doing little more than giving Iran a backdoor escape to the status quo that serves him well. Because, if Obama and the P5+1 can accomplish a nuclear deal, he and his 46 buddies are f*cked".

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/none-dare-call-it-treason-tom-cotton-iran-and-old-gop-ideas-20150316#ixzz3Ue6u9hIz 
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


mikec

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Reply with quote  #176 
Sorry, EG, but when an article starts with phrases like "genocide hobbyist Henry Kissinger", everything that comes after is discredited.

Further, it appears the author learned a few new swear words at his middle school playground, and sprinkled them liberally throughout.

When something is such complete BS, and is so clearly written from a viewpoint of hate and contempt, there isn't much use or point in trying to pick through it.  The response would be twice as long as the article.
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #177 
So, John Bolton is NOT a death walrus? But seriously,  I appreciate the replies. Fair enough.
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"Kazoo, clean up on aisle Dewey."

mikec

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Reply with quote  #178 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce
So, John Bolton is NOT a death walrus? But seriously,  I appreciate the replies. Fair enough.


I don't even know what a death walrus even is, so he may or may not be.

Honestly, I don't get articles like this.  Maybe they sell rags to a particular crowd that is rabid to consume hate talk.

IMHO, to be taken seriously, the author could make the same points without some of the spew, and people might have to take notice.

BTW - this is not a partisan thing - I would say the same thing regardless of the slant.  If the author is trying so hard to add in all of the insults and inflammatory phrases, it renders any possible coherent point moot.

It just doesn't seem very credible when you have to strain language construction to invent new insults.

Rant off.
Dewey

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Posts: 24,422
Reply with quote  #179 
I agree with mikec.  Once you decide to spew personal insults, any comments that follow will be mostly discredited.  Anyone who groups individuals and inappropriately condemns them as a whole, (Libertards for example), should be dismissed from the outset, imho.
ForeverInBlue

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Posts: 10,335
Reply with quote  #180 
I agree with mikec too.

When you consider the frequency with which he insults republicans as a group and personally attacks Boehner, it's clear the first person one should dismiss from the outset is President Obama himself.
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