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ajclive

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Reply with quote  #1 

   Was just showing someone a book I had from years ago, when I went to see the "King and his Court," in Yonkers New York, on the August nights. He was amazing, and I just googled him, and he has passed on. What enjoyment he gave me, and inspired me to try to pitch underhand. I went on to join the Yonkers Fire Deparment, and got to know a "Ace," Drohan, and his daughter is head coach now at Northwestern. Amazing how life links together, all of us.


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Albert J. Cerrato
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #2 
clive - Eddie Feigner, the original pitcher for The King and His Court, has "passed on". For about the last fifteen years, a pitcher from New Jersey (Bayonne) named Richie Hoppe has carried the bulk of the pitching and the show, and since Feigner's death, he has been the featured pitcher. Richie is a dear friend, and he stopped in to see me a few years ago (he lives in California now) with his daughter when The Court was in Florida. Good guy - great show. I pitched against Feigner numerous times, and he put on a great show.
I also pitched against "The Queen and Her Maids" (Rosie Beard) - have you heard of them? Ah, the good old days.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #3 
Mr. Bolton,

I had the pleasure of playing against "The Queen and her Maids" many years ago. I assume she has since married as she was known as Rosie Black back then. It was a memory I will never forget! Facing her in the circle was a treat!

Jerry

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #4 
Jerry - Her maiden name was Rosie Beard. Her Daddy was Royal Beard. When she married, she became Rosie Beard Black.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #5 

I should have known I had it backwards! I am younger!


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #6 
Fanatic - I saw them later when they became "The Queen and Her Court". They had two women (Rosie Black and her sister) and two men, one of whom was her brother (remember "Lotta Chatter"?) who was a terrific athlete and a young man by then, and I understand that he made a name for himself in tennis. Excellent barnstorming group.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #7 

her brother was very very good.


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #8 
The other girl when I saw them was Eileen Francamenaro awesome saw them play between a double header in the minors(ashville) could not see the ball pitched for a while actually did not throw it you could not tell Eileen was the catcher
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #9 
78 - I believe that Eileen was Eileen Beard and Francamenaro was her married name. She is Rosie Beard Black's sister I believe.
Edit: I checked in a program that I have, and Eileen was 15 years old when we played against them. Rosie was 18.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #10 

great stuff it was a tiger and ranger minor league game inn Ashville they were catching the ball almost like bowing down and throwing their glove hi in the air behind them, us pros tried that for months still couldnt do it. rosie was amazing and lotta was an amazing athlete. Ran into a girl in Florida who beat that team she was a pitcher too said she threw in the 80s, her name I beleive was Carol Duggan you might have heard of her.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
78 - No female pitcher throws in the eighties, and beating the Queen and Her Maids is no big feat for a half decent team. It's a show, not really a contest. I played against the Harlem Globetrotters and the Harlem Satellites in basketball and the same was true about the show, but they played basketball at a very high level. As with "The King", the show's the thing.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #12 

WOW YOU COME ACROSS AS A NOW IT ALL good luck with that Rosie had to throw at least in the eighties u could not see the ball the first few pitches and I think Eddie threw close to 100. Saw the Japanese pitcher throw 70 some and had no problem seeing the ball come out of her hand. Like I mentioned Rosie did not throw the pitch and the catcher just made the noise. Not even the pros new she did not even throw it. Eddie did the same trick.

pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #13 

Hey sorry about the now it all but if you were really into softball you would no Joan Joyce coach of Florida Atlantic was clocked in the 100s in the 70s

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #14 
78 - Believe me, the fastest throwing women in the world occasionally with a single pitch break 70MPH, and the fastest throwing men top off at about 86 or 87. When Joanie (I know her but not well) was pitching (before everyone was gunned), media knew that she threw fast, so they made up numbers like 100 MPH - no way !!!! Feigner claimed to have been clocked at 115 MPH - no way !!! Those are public relations numbers.

To settle this discussion, I sent one of my teachers from my softball school to a men's world tournament with a radar gun. He came back with the knowledge that the fastest men in the world topped off at 86 MPH.
That is unbelievably fast. To give you some idea, women who throw 65MPH or over are considered very, very fast.

PS - I don't know it all, but I'm 78 years old and have been around fastpitch softball most of my adult life, so I have picked up some knowledge here and there and know the difference between myth and reality.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
tenfour

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Reply with quote  #15 
pitcher78, as a long-time fan of fastball (fastpitch softball), I concur with Joiseyguy that no female softball pitcher EVER threw in the 80's and no male softball pitcher EVER threw in the 100's.   
I saw many of the greats in men's fastpitch during the '70's, 80's and 90's from USA, Canada, and New Zealand and sat behind a gun as they were being clocked. The fastest recorded was 86 mph but that was very rare. The best of them could throw in the low 80's (82-85 mph). 
Although I did not witness it, I was told that Gene McWillie (Saskatoon) was recorded throwing at 89 mph at the 1980 ISF in Tacoma, Washington. 

You might want to dial back on your rhetoric and respect those that have been around the game for quite some time. We don't have any axes to grind-we are just being truthful.

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pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #16 

Eddie feghner was clocked at 104 and no for a fact the men now are easily into the 90s throwing a softball is a easier and natural motion for the human body more so than throwing a baseball. Studying this exact subject in Kinesiology in grad school which many arguments came up just like this one. Being a pro baseball player myself seeing Eddie and Rosie pitch many times I can tell you both throw harder than 90 trust me. And a jugs gun at too close of a distance will register slower, ball does not get up to speed. Although a jugs gun was not there the general consensus was Rosie had to be close to 100. I seriously could not see the ball, neither could my teamates after about 10 pitches we could just barely pick it up. Although by college standards she is pitching illegal.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #17 
78 - All my softball life I have heard and read stories about male pitchers throwing 115 MPH and also about females throwing 95-100. I truly understand how many folks would be taken in by those numbers since they have been widely published in magazines and in brochures, and to a simple visual, the pitchers were throwing very fast.

I pitched in men's major fastpitch, and often heard that Ty Stofflet, for example, threw 110, and I never doubted it as I batted against him and he was "very fast". Radar guns were not used then to measure speed, so many folks looked at "burners" and accepted that the ball was travelling at 100 MPH. When measuring devices came in, so did reality. Unfortunately, many well meaning fans had been duped into believing numbers that were unattainable. We live and learn - hopefully.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
whocares

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Reply with quote  #18 

  Rosie Black could not throw the ball in the 90s or 80s maybe in the low 70s.  She had troubles in the Pro League back in the 70s.  Her brother could throw the ball in the 80s.   Bill Massey, who played with many teams in the 60s Air Force, Clearwater, and Raybestos, could bring it in the 90s.  He and Johnny Pappas of Major league Baseball. were clocked for a Sports Illustrated story.  Massey averaged around 94 mph and Pappas around 93 mph.  The fastest pitcher I ever faced was Dick Norenberg of the Raybestos Cardinals. I believe he got it into the hundreds.  I think Call Miller from NJ threw it about 200 at night. I know there were two people at the plate that could not see the ball, me and the umpire. Those were great days Frank.    I think that the numbers for Rosie and Joan Joyce come from a relative speed based on the time it takes to reach home plate compared to baseball. If you are watching the Little League games, they do the same thing.  Both Rose and Joan were in the middle 70s, which is faster than the pitchers of today. Joan threw sling shot which I think is the fastest way to throw the ball.

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tenfour

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Reply with quote  #19 
Sorry, who cares, but you are incorrect in your speeds. Bill Massey did NOT bring it in the 90's. Norenberg did not throw in the 100's.  If there was a clocking (by SI or others) that clocked those speeds, the radar guns (or whatever) were not measuring accurate speeds. As far as Rosie and Joan throwing in the middle 70's, that is incorrect.
The speeds today are measured correctly and the highest registered is about 72 mph for women.  The training today is superior to what it was in the 1960's-70's, and 1980's. The athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger (both men and women); therefore it stands to reason that if no woman pitcher can currently throw in the high 70's-low 80's then neither did the previous generation.



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whocares

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Reply with quote  #20 

  Sorry tenfour,  I will call SI and tell them their radar guns were off a little.  John Pappas's speed was right but Bill Massey's was wrong.  I think that Kathy Arendsen was faster than Joan or Rosie.  You are saying that the old timers were not in shape, and that as far as pitching is concerned its strength over technique that give you speed.  Just ask the women that played against Joan Kathy and Rosie, and are coaching today and see what they say. I will agree that high 70s and low 80s is not in the cards for female pitchers. 

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #21 
who cares - Cal Miller was my roommate on the road and a dear friend. Cal threw hard and down. Cal died about two years ago after a bout with Alzheimers. He was recently inducted into the New Jersey Softball Hall of Fame. I was nominated but was not selected. I feel honored to be nominated. I would guess that Cal threw about 86 on his best day (that's quick). I batted against him, and he threw hard. Great man - fine softball pitcher, terrific friend. I have seen Arendsen throw several times, and she could bring it. I would suggest that she threw about high sixties consistently (educated guess).
PS - Interesting story: I once asked Cal when he was going to develop a good riser (my best pitch), and his answer was, "Meat, as soon as they start hitting the down". Whatta guy !!
Dick Nuremberg was very hard and scary as his control was suspect. He was a bright guy who used his softball to achieve an executive position with Raybestos. Good for him !!

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pitcher78

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Reply with quote  #22 

hey this makes great talk but I have never seen a pitcher these days even when they are throwing in the sixties that comes close to what I saw Rosie throw . But like I said she was probably replanting and taking every advantage the girls these days cannot topping out the speed. 104 for Eddie is the only legit speed I could find. but read a few recent articles that said the fast pitch guys today do throw in the 90s and even faster. I will ask Joan Joyce how the speed now compares to it then.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #23 
78 - One of the keys for Rosie was that she threw from 40 feet. It took 3 innings for our hitters to catch up with her just because of that. The closer distance made her look much faster and reduced reaction time.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
whocares

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Reply with quote  #24 

 Joisey guy, for what you have done for softball in New Jersey and the game in general I think your name should be re submitted to the selection committee in NJ. If someone out there knows how to do that, please get it done. Joisey guy deserves to be in there.

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Whocares
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #25 
who cares - Your thoughts and those of others who have professed similar thoughts are really what counts. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that you care and recognize whatever I've contributed. Thank you.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Theveteran

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Reply with quote  #26 

As someone who has been involved in softball for more than 40 years, I can assure you Eddie Feigner and Joan Joyce never threw 100mph. If you understanding pitching mechanics and think this out, you can come up with a logical solution, which is there is no way possible for a human being to throw a softball that fast from that short a distance. The best women pitchers throw generally in the high 60s and low 70s while the men are in the low 80s. Some said Peter Meredith threw at 88, but how many times did he do that, if ever. we tested some of the top men pitchers in Decatur one year (1994) and they were in the low 80s. That 100 mph was only for marketing reasons and sounded good, but wasn't true. I even batted against Rosie Baird Black and got a hit off of her and I saw the ball. The ball seems faster because the distance is compressed, but if the ball was coming 100mph it would be something else to catch or hit, let alone see it. Think about that. I knew Eddie Feigner for years and Eddie would aways say that he threw that fast, but he knew it wasn't true.It was good for promoting the Court and getting him more visibility.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #27 
veteran - Amen ! It is difficult to overcome that media propaganda however. Some folks simply think that "fast" is 100 MPH. It's a difficult perspective to overcome.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
WndMillR

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Reply with quote  #28 
Understand that the Court was playing to a crowd....Selling tickets......
If you ever listened to Eddie as to how they measured the speed of the pitch that was clocked at 104 mph, it had something to do with a bullet fired off the back of a horse while riding on a train...??
80 is fast....there is no 100...

Big announcement coming in a couple of weeks,  
The Last 100 games of The King and his Court.....
We will shut it down next Fall.... The last real thing.....

http://www.kingandhiscourt.com

As info.... small tour this year, Been to NC, Va, Mn, Iowa, Pa. California, Ct.
We are playing outside Cleveland on Aug 29th, 2010,   200pm at All Pro Freight Baseball Stadium in Avon Ohio      200pm

JoiseyGuy....  I tell Hoppe you said hello.....





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"Softball is like Church...many attend, few understand"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #29 
Wndmller - Thanks. Please tell Richie that I send a big "hello, friend". He is one of the good guys in my book. I can't believe that he's still out there throwing. The guys in the city used to call him "Sugar Hop". We pitched against each other many times before he left for California. In fact, we threw against each other in a regional game in Buffalo which was my last regional, and I think he left to join Eddie Feigner right after that game. Great memories. Again, thanks !!
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
WndMillR

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Reply with quote  #30 
Those are the days playing up in Harlem.....plus the old seaboard league...
he still goes by sugarhop.....
PM me and I will get you his email address


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"Softball is like Church...many attend, few understand"
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