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ElGarfio

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
But is she allowed ANY warmup pitches if she is IN the game after having pitched once?


10.19 Warm-Up Pitches Allowed 10.19.1 A warm-up pitch is any pitch delivered to home plate during a suspension of play. 10.19.2 At the start of the game and beginning of each half-inning, the pitcher of record may throw not more than five pitches or four pitches and one throw to first base or any combination that is limited to five throws from the pitcher. Play shall be suspended during this time. Note: If the catcher is the third out or on base when the third out is made, the offensive team should have someone ready to warm up the pitcher. 10.19.3 After a pitching change, a relief pitcher may throw not more than five pitches or four pitches and one throw to first base or any combination that is limited to five throws from the pitcher. Play shall be suspended during 108 RULE 10 / PITCHING this time. A pitcher shall not be allowed warm-up pitches if returning to pitch in the same half-inning.

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smileyface

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Reply with quote  #32 
Is this really the best team we can put together?
Seems to me they should be recruiting some of the NPF players. Perhaps USA reduces their schedule so its worth it to the NPF players to take a week or two off in the summer to go win some games.

Its like if you cant cut it in the NPF then go play USA.
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smileyface
Is this really the best team we can put together?
Seems to me they should be recruiting some of the NPF players. Perhaps USA reduces their schedule so its worth it to the NPF players to take a week or two off in the summer to go win some games.

Its like if you cant cut it in the NPF then go play USA.



USA will get hammered in the Olympics.
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



USA will get hammered in the Olympics.


It's not an Olympics year...

The National Team and NPF schedules overlap. Right now the top paid NPF players aren't signing with Team USA and national team signees are precluded from playing for the NPF during their NT schedule.

Note: If you want to see softball in the Olympics on an ongoing basis, you want to see more than just a few competitive national teams internationally. 
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #35 
<< They win in spite of their coaching shortfalls. I set my DVR and recorded all of the Softball Championship this year. The coaching mistakes and dumb moves are mind boggling. The Oklahoma shift? Comon Man! Yet she has back to back WCWS victories. >> (ElGarfio)

Just wondering... 
did your daughter ground out against the Gasso shift... or what..?

What do you have against that shift..?

Would love to hear your reasoning - as to why using it was not a good move for Oklahoma.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And if you have ANY other specific reasons that you can bring to the table - as to why you think Patty Gasso is not a great coach... 
please list them here.
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #36 
<< Is this really the best team we can put together?
Seems to me they should be recruiting some of the NPF players. >> (Smileyface)

<< USA will get hammered in the Olympics. >> (1janiedough)

<< It's not an Olympics year... >> (Kurosawa)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I will not be surprised if we end up seeing the likes of Shelby Pendley at shortstop, Sierra Romero at second base and Monica Abbot pitching, etc...
in the 2020 Olympic games. I will probably be more surprised - if we do not see them there. 
3leftturns

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Posts: 11,435
Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< They win in spite of their coaching shortfalls. I set my DVR and recorded all of the Softball Championship this year. The coaching mistakes and dumb moves are mind boggling. The Oklahoma shift? Comon Man! Yet she has back to back WCWS victories. >> (ElGarfio)

Just wondering... 
did your daughter ground out against the Gasso shift... or what..?

What do you have against that shift..?

Would love to hear your reasoning - as to why using it was not a good move for Oklahoma.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And if you have ANY other specific reasons that you can bring to the table - as to why you think Patty Gasso is not a great coach... 
please list them here.
In a vacuum, the shift is daft.... It should have ended their season in the 10th inning against Tulsa. Whether she is throwing her legit 69-71 or even the microwaved 75 at that neutral field in OKC, if that pitch is middle-in, it can get pulled

In a macro sense, though, if that shift has been a significant cog in Lowary massively improving her accuracy and finding herself... it has been genius
ElGarfio

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< They win in spite of their coaching shortfalls. I set my DVR and recorded all of the Softball Championship this year. The coaching mistakes and dumb moves are mind boggling. The Oklahoma shift? Comon Man! Yet she has back to back WCWS victories. >> (ElGarfio)

Just wondering... 
did your daughter ground out against the Gasso shift... or what..?

What do you have against that shift..?

Would love to hear your reasoning - as to why using it was not a good move for Oklahoma.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And if you have ANY other specific reasons that you can bring to the table - as to why you think Patty Gasso is not a great coach... 
please list them here.


I drove out to Cathedral City in February to watch that tournament. There were a lot of big teams there. Gasso was using the shift against batters she didn't know. Not only that, the pitchers were getting a the entire ball over the white part of the plate. There's no reason for it. If you want to shift move an infielder over there. Don't take an outfielder and put them in the infield. These were not slappers they were facing. Why expose yourself to a triple on weak base hit to left field when you can shade your infield and outfield to the right or left side. The shift in baseball is used because there are major league hitters many Managers are quite certain can't hit the ball to the opposite side. However the MLB teams move an infielder over there. They don't leave themselves exposed in the outfield. Baseball is almost 200 years old. I'm pretty certain an NCAA softball coach is going to figure out a defense that hasn't been applied by someone over the 200 year history of baseball. Gasso uses her shift for no apparent reason in games. But she doesn't have the sense to put her outfield in a no doubles defense or move her outfield in when she needs to cut a run down at the plate. Hit and runs with 2 outs with a runner on 1st? She has tremendous athletes at Oklahoma if your daughter is going there I'm sure they will continue to be successful. If they are playing a team with equal talent she will never win. She must be a good recruiter! My opinions are based upon watching Oklahoma play many times over many years and watching her make mistake after mistake and getting away with it more times than she should. She had much better athletes than Florida that's why she won. To answer your question, my daughter didn't ground out against the shift. My kids are done playing ball. I love the game. Still watch and follow it and cringe to see what some of these kids go through with these coaches. I don't know Patty Gasso, don't know how she treats her players. I think she should learn the situations and learn how to be a good on field coach. She has the recruiting part down. But you know what they say. The game is won and lost in the living room!

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ElGarfio

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
In a vacuum, the shift is daft.... It should have ended their season in the 10th inning against Tulsa. Whether she is throwing her legit 69-71 or even the microwaved 75 at that neutral field in OKC, if that pitch is middle-in, it can get pulled

In a macro sense, though, if that shift has been a significant cog in Lowary massively improving her accuracy and finding herself... it has been genius

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ElGarfio

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Reply with quote  #40 
Agree with you on every point. Saw pitches being thrown middle in by mistake while sitting behind home plate at Cathedral City numerous times in numerous games. The Softball Gods were smiling down upon her vs Tulsa. 
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ChinMusic

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Posts: 586
Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElGarfio
Agree with you on every point. Saw pitches being thrown middle in by mistake while sitting behind home plate at Cathedral City numerous times in numerous games. The Softball Gods were smiling down upon her vs Tulsa. 


Such crazy luck she enjoys....year after year after year.
cjs4585

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Posts: 150
Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
In a vacuum, the shift is daft.... It should have ended their season in the 10th inning against Tulsa. Whether she is throwing her legit 69-71 or even the microwaved 75 at that neutral field in OKC, if that pitch is middle-in, it can get pulled

In a macro sense, though, if that shift has been a significant cog in Lowary massively improving her accuracy and finding herself... it has been genius


The idea that *no one* can pull a Lowary pitch is daft. I dont know if I'd attribute Lowary's reinvention to the shift. If I had to guess, I would says she is just happy and more engaged and that helped her accuracy. I remember seeing a Mizzou game where she gave up a walk-off and it seemed like she was just like "oh well". I think there was so much crap going on at Mizzou, some of which Lowary was involved in, that she just couldn't fulfill her potential there.
RahOKU

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Posts: 1,212
Reply with quote  #43 
Disagree that OU that much better athletes than Florida -- and I'm an Oklahoma fan, right?

We also were at the Mary Nutter, and I think OU historically is at that event trying to win, of course, but also to learn about who can play, etc, against top opponents. Not excusing anything, just saying that OU under Gasso has tended to start slowly and then close strong. I mean, Lowary was a work in progress early on, learning her role, how to change from being an up-and-down zone pitcher to working both sides of the plate. She had to get experience executing pitch after pitch to the outside edge to RH hitters with that shift alignment.

So, I'd ease up a bit on 4NattyPatty. Almost everyone who gets to OKC could win the whole tournament. The talent is pretty even. Gasso is a gambler in-game, and sometimes stuff doesn't work out. She adapted that shift (to my relief) at the WCWS -- being much more selective in using it. Gasso has 4 NCs because she recruits well and generally does a good job of deploying that talent.
1janiedough

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Posts: 2,537
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahOKU
Disagree that OU that much better athletes than Florida -- and I'm an Oklahoma fan, right? We also were at the Mary Nutter, and I think OU historically is at that event trying to win, of course, but also to learn about who can play, etc, against top opponents. Not excusing anything, just saying that OU under Gasso has tended to start slowly and then close strong. I mean, Lowary was a work in progress early on, learning her role, how to change from being an up-and-down zone pitcher to working both sides of the plate. She had to get experience executing pitch after pitch to the outside edge to RH hitters with that shift alignment. So, I'd ease up a bit on 4NattyPatty. Almost everyone who gets to OKC could win the whole tournament. The talent is pretty even. Gasso is a gambler in-game, and sometimes stuff doesn't work out. She adapted that shift (to my relief) at the WCWS -- being much more selective in using it. Gasso has 4 NCs because she recruits well and generally does a good job of deploying that talent.



Patty is the whole package...tough, smart, a risk taker, has absolute belief in her ability and her team's ability...and most importantly, is able to convey that belief to her players and to consequently pull everything ouf of them.

She may just catch Candrea.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #45 

+1

lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElGarfio
Agree with you on every point. Saw pitches being thrown middle in by mistake while sitting behind home plate at Cathedral City numerous times in numerous games. The Softball Gods were smiling down upon her vs Tulsa. 

Chinmusic
 Such crazy luck she enjoys....year after year after year.


Sometimes it doesn't pay to play text book softball or any sport. Too much is expected. no surprises.

I saw text book for 4 years. didn't work out too well.




HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #47 
<< In a vacuum, the shift is daft.... It should have ended their season in the 10th inning against Tulsa. Whether she is throwing her legit 69-71 or even the microwaved 75 at that neutral field in OKC, if that pitch is middle-in, it can get pulled

In a macro sense, though, if that shift has been a significant cog in Lowary massively improving her accuracy and finding herself... it has been genius >> (3leftturns)

----------------------------------------------

<< I drove out to Cathedral City in February to watch that tournament. There were a lot of big teams there. Gasso was using the shift against batters she didn't know. Not only that, the pitchers were getting a the entire ball over the white part of the plate. There's no reason for it. If you want to shift move an infielder over there. Don't take an outfielder and put them in the infield. These were not slappers they were facing. Why expose yourself to a triple on weak base hit to left field when you can shade your infield and outfield to the right or left side. The shift in baseball is used because there are major league hitters many Managers are quite certain can't hit the ball to the opposite side. However the MLB teams move an infielder over there. They don't leave themselves exposed in the outfield. Baseball is almost 200 years old. I'm pretty certain an NCAA softball coach is going to figure out a defense that hasn't been applied by someone over the 200 year history of baseball. Gasso uses her shift for no apparent reason in games. >> (ElGarfio)

==================================

First - I loved your "macro sense" comment, 3LT. That is a very nice point.

Now I will address your "In a vacuum, the shift is daft" & your "if that pitch is middle-in, it can get pulled" comments...
along with all of ElGarfio" comments about the shift I listed above.

++++++++++++++++

You both seem to misunderstand exactly how strategy works in softball (or sports in general). You guys (along with all the others who think that shift is a poor strategy) seem to be under the impression that if it fails any time... that means it is a poor strategy. 

That... is massively incorrect thinking (or a misunderstanding of how - and why - strategies are employed (and work).

When a coach brings in a lefty pitcher to face a lefty batter - this is done BECAUSE it improves the odds for the defensive team. This strategy is NOT GUARANTEED to work every single time it is employed. It is employed because it works way more often than it does not work. 

Strategies are employed because they increase the odds of your team being successful.
There are NO STRATEGIES that work EVERY TIME!

I do not have the data of exactly how many times Oklahoma employed the Lowary shift - and how many times it worked vs. how many times it got beat. BUT I am 100% certain that Patty Gasso does have the exact numbers. To the best of my knowledge, opposing teams managed to get a ball through the left side (or over it) and into left field - against this shift... a grand total of THREE TIMES in the 2017 season. So the shift got beat THREE TIMES. I am guessing there must have been well over a hundred batters that went up against that shift.

The point is this: IT WORKED ALMOST ALL THE TIME!

Only someone with no understanding of how the game works... would think that a strategy has to work EVERY SINGLE TIME to be a good one.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

<< Gasso was using the shift against batters she didn't know. >> (ELGarfio)

The Lowary shift is not based on the individual batter. It is based on this one pitcher's ability to keep right handed batters from pulling the ball to the left side of the diamond (especially in the air). 

But - believe me, I am sure Gasso knows which hitters did succeed in doing it - and will keep that very much in mind for future reference. She will also most likely be able to begin a reference sheet of what particular type of hitter has been successful (if any particular type reveals itself over time). The number of successful hitters is such a tiny number at this point - that there is not a whole lot to go on.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

<< Gasso uses her shift for no apparent reason in games. >> (ElGarfio)

You have got to be kidding...
Just because YOU do not understand or are unaware of her reasons... 
does not mean she has no reasons.
3leftturns

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Posts: 11,435
Reply with quote  #48 
I really don't want to spank you, since I believe that the shift was in play as part of Lowary's rehabilitation of her confidence.... so, it was awesome as far as I am concerned. They fixed a transcendant talent

However, again in a vacuum, it is silly, especially for any decent lineup facing Lowary a second time (or more) in a game, as was the case against Tulsa.

You act like Lowary throws 80. Or even 75...LOL

The difference between Gasso being a goat and being in the GOAT discussion are those four runs in the bottom of the 10th in Norman.

But, that is why they call winning the great deodorant
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #49 
<< she (Gasso) doesn't have the sense to put her outfield in a no doubles defense or move her outfield in when she needs to cut a run down at the plate. >> (ElGarfio)

You are wrong. She does both of those things. She had her outfielders in the "no doubles defense" when that short pop fly into left center dropped in for a game tying hit in the bottom of the 7th in the first game vs. Florida (with Parker pitching). My beef with her strategy at that time was that she had her outfielders TOO DEEP to prevent an EBH. Instead of having them on the edge of the track (where they were positioned) - I would move them in about 6 to 8 feet in front of the track in that situation. Then the OF can still cut off most gap shots - and have the added benefit of being able to get to many more short pop flies (or sinking liners). That 17 inning game would have ended in 7 - if the OF had been just a step or two off the warning track.

She also does bring her OF in when she needs to cut a run down at the plate. 
I have no idea why you believe that she doesn't do those two things (because she does).
They are very standard strategies - that all NCAA coaches use.

==============================

<< Hit and runs with 2 outs with a runner on 1st? >> (ElGarfio)

Are you implying that employing a hit and run with a runner on 1st with 2 outs - is a bad move..???

There is a good reason to use that strategy.
If you do not understand it, let me know - and I will inform you later.

==============================

<<  If they are playing a team with equal talent she will never win. >> (EG)

You truly believe that Oklahoma has the very best talent in NCAA softball - every season.
That may be the most ridiculous thing you have written - so far.
There are a lot of top level teams that get great recruits every year. 
The idea that Oklahoma has more talent than EVERY other team - is absurd.
And the idea that they have more talent than EVERY other team EVERY year - is even more ridiculously absurd.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

<< My opinions are based upon watching Oklahoma play many times over many years and watching her make mistake after mistake and getting away with it more times than she should. >> (EG)

Please list these many, many mistakes Gasso has made... 
and be sure to list them with as great amount of detail as you can.
I can hardly wait...
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #50 
<< The idea that *no one* can pull a Lowary pitch is daft. >> (cjs4585)

Patty Gasso does not have that particular belief. 
I have a very hard time understanding how you - or anyone else - can have that idea ("no one").

It does not have to work EVERY TIME to be a good strategy.
Patty Gasso believes that almost no one can pull Lowary. 
And that idea has been proven to be quite true in 2017.
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #51 
<< Patty is the whole package...tough, smart, a risk taker, has absolute belief in her ability and her team's ability...and most importantly, is able to convey that belief to her players and to consequently pull everything out of them. >> (1janiedough)

One of the very best sentences ever written on this site. 
Can hardly wait to see EG's response...
HenryLouisAaron

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Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #52 
<< However, again in a vacuum, it is silly, especially for any decent lineup facing Lowary a second time (or more) in a game, as was the case against Tulsa.
You act like Lowary throws 80. Or even 75...LOL
The difference between Gasso being a goat and being in the GOAT discussion are those four runs in the bottom of the 10th in Norman. >> (3LT)

No... I act like a strategy that works almost every time - is a good one.

The fact that it might have been beaten in a crucial situation... 
DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT STILL WORKED ALMOST ALL THE TIME.

Your pov seems to be saying that if you brought in your lefty closer to face a lefty batter in the bottom of the 9th in the WS... 
and then that lefty batter hit a game winning HR... 
somehow THAT one crucial at bat MAKES THE STRATEGY A POOR ONE.

IT DOES NOT!
3leftturns

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Posts: 11,435
Reply with quote  #53 

Believe me.... if Sooners go 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 10th, that whacky shift sinking her season would be mentioned before her natties.

That's the way that goes.

It is a silly risk in any circumstance against an able-bodied peer team, other than Lowary facing a righty a first time.

That's three bases, and it doesn't take a swing with authority....

A bleeder, bloop, humpback liner, a gork, a ground ball, a ground ball with eyes....




Again, though, winning is the biggest Speed Stick in the world

liveon

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Reply with quote  #54 
A dying quail...
Softballjunkie223

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Posts: 150
Reply with quote  #55 
Hate to steal your post but
https://mobile.twitter.com/USASoftball/status/880154463918592002
Exciting
ElGarfio

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough



Patty is the whole package...tough, smart, a risk taker, has absolute belief in her ability and her team's ability...and most importantly, is able to convey that belief to her players and to consequently pull everything ouf of them.

She may just catch Candrea.


Yes she is the whole package. She's a genius. I especially thought the most genius way to motivate her players was the fact that they had to earn their white cleats. GENIUS! I can't thing of anything that would make me play harder than earning a pair of white cleats. Right up there with Knute Rockne!

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ElGarfio

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< she (Gasso) doesn't have the sense to put her outfield in a no doubles defense or move her outfield in when she needs to cut a run down at the plate. >> (ElGarfio)

You are wrong. She does both of those things. She had her outfielders in the "no doubles defense" when that short pop fly into left center dropped in for a game tying hit in the bottom of the 7th in the first game vs. Florida (with Parker pitching). My beef with her strategy at that time was that she had her outfielders TOO DEEP to prevent an EBH. Instead of having them on the edge of the track (where they were positioned) - I would move them in about 6 to 8 feet in front of the track in that situation. Then the OF can still cut off most gap shots - and have the added benefit of being able to get to many more short pop flies (or sinking liners). That 17 inning game would have ended in 7 - if the OF had been just a step or two off the warning track.

She also does bring her OF in when she needs to cut a run down at the plate. 
I have no idea why you believe that she doesn't do those two things (because she does).
They are very standard strategies - that all NCAA coaches use.

==============================

<< Hit and runs with 2 outs with a runner on 1st? >> (ElGarfio)

Are you implying that employing a hit and run with a runner on 1st with 2 outs - is a bad move..???

There is a good reason to use that strategy.
If you do not understand it, let me know - and I will inform you later.

==============================

<<  If they are playing a team with equal talent she will never win. >> (EG)

You truly believe that Oklahoma has the very best talent in NCAA softball - every season.
That may be the most ridiculous thing you have written - so far.
There are a lot of top level teams that get great recruits every year. 
The idea that Oklahoma has more talent than EVERY other team - is absurd.
And the idea that they have more talent than EVERY other team EVERY year - is even more ridiculously absurd.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

<< My opinions are based upon watching Oklahoma play many times over many years and watching her make mistake after mistake and getting away with it more times than she should. >> (EG)

Please list these many, many mistakes Gasso has made... 
and be sure to list them with as great amount of detail as you can.
I can hardly wait...


If you don't know why a hit and run with 2 outs is a bad move you really don't understand anything about anything. 

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The Wild Bull of the Pampas
ElGarfio

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns

Believe me.... if Sooners go 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 10th, that whacky shift sinking her season would be mentioned before her natties.

That's the way that goes.

It is a silly risk in any circumstance against an able-bodied peer team, other than Lowary facing a righty a first time.

That's three bases, and it doesn't take a swing with authority....

A bleeder, bloop, humpback liner, a gork, a ground ball, a ground ball with eyes....




Again, though, winning is the biggest Speed Stick in the world



One of the greatest lines in this movie and possibly one of the greatest baseball movie lines ever! Maybe HLA and some of these Gassoholics should watch this movie.

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ElGarfio

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLouisAaron
<< However, again in a vacuum, it is silly, especially for any decent lineup facing Lowary a second time (or more) in a game, as was the case against Tulsa.
You act like Lowary throws 80. Or even 75...LOL
The difference between Gasso being a goat and being in the GOAT discussion are those four runs in the bottom of the 10th in Norman. >> (3LT)

No... I act like a strategy that works almost every time - is a good one.

The fact that it might have been beaten in a crucial situation... 
DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT STILL WORKED ALMOST ALL THE TIME.

Your pov seems to be saying that if you brought in your lefty closer to face a lefty batter in the bottom of the 9th in the WS... 
and then that lefty batter hit a game winning HR... 
somehow THAT one crucial at bat MAKES THE STRATEGY A POOR ONE.

IT DOES NOT!


My Pov does not say anything like that. My pov says that not having a left fielder out there against a left handed batter is a stupid move. There is nothing you will say or anyone else can say that is going to change that. The risks far outweigh the gain. If you keep betting a horse that is 99-1 and a 99-1 shot wins the 350th time you make the bet. Guess what? You still lost money. She was lucky to beat Tulsa. She shouldn't have beat Tulsa. Stop and think about that. You have those athletes and you're down by 3 runs in the 7th inning in an elimination game to Tulsa? 

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Tina

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Reply with quote  #60 

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