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GoYard

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Reply with quote  #31 
The top 5% reap HUGE windfalls from a flat tax.  The poor get hit the hardest.  It's a very regressive idea.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #32 
To dispute the notion that the recent election was a repudiation of Obama policies, I've been asking over the last few days what particular policies were so shocking to the electorate and what alternatives would they have preferred?  While I wait for more input, here are a couple more positive changes that were emphasized on a left leaning comedy show this evening:

 
Obama signs new GI Bill for 'all who serve'

 

No Lifetime Limit on Health Coverage Is A Good Deal for Americans

Not bad, huh?  The next big debate coming forward is the extension of the Bush tax rates.  I, like most Democrats, back President Obama wholeheartedly when it comes to limiting the income levels for these extensions.  That said, two days of writing and talking politics here has me now thinking otherwise.  There is no doubt we will have a large deficit in 2012 and this will not bode well for this President.  Despite the fact he will have taken many economic steps to help keep this deficit lower than it otherwise would have been, he will be labeled by the Right as the President of enormous debt.  I now believe an extension of all Bush era tax rates will give Obama a great selling point in 2012...that he tried to decrease the deficit but Republicans wanted more tax cuts.  This could be one of the few defensive weapons to counter the Republican deficit cry and it just might work, especially if unemployment is lower.  Food for thought.

GoYard

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

I now believe an extension of all Bush era tax rates will give Obama a great selling point in 2012...that he tried to decrease the deficit but Republicans wanted more tax cuts.  This could be one of the few defensive weapons to counter the Republican deficit cry and it just might work, especially if unemployment is lower.  Food for thought.



How can it be a great selling point if he compromises & agrees to it?  He will not be able to blame the Republicans if he signs the bill.  Dammit, he's the President & he has to stop being such a wuss.  The potential of adding $700 billion to an already huge deficit is alarming.  We need to take some drastic action - NOW - or we will be in worse shape in 2 years.  I for one do NOT want to see him capitulate to the Republicans in this area.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #34 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/12/AR2010111204494.html
Talk about a waste of taxpayers money....why should we pay for people to buy these cars.They are either good enough to sell on their own or they are not.
Just think if they sold 120K like they projected[ and wouldn't unless GE buys MORE],We would dish out almost $1 billion in credits.

They ought to give all us former bondholders who got nothing for our bonds a VOLT-2nd thought,I think I did get a volt.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoYard

How can it be a great selling point if he compromises & agrees to it?  He will not be able to blame the Republicans if he signs the bill.  Dammit, he's the President & he has to stop being such a wuss.  The potential of adding $700 billion to an already huge deficit is alarming.  We need to take some drastic action - NOW - or we will be in worse shape in 2 years.  I for one do NOT want to see him capitulate to the Republicans in this area.


GoYard - I agree with you.  But if it comes to no extension vs extension of all, what do you do?  For the good of the Country, I hope Obama wins on this issue.  However, should he lose, blaming the Republicans for allowing the debt to increase could offset the "debt President" label they'll put on him in 2012.  My point is if the House refuses to go along with the President on these extensions, there may be some political hay to be made.  Obviously, you're assuming they could get this done before January but I think the Senate may ultimately determine if that's possible.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoYard

How can it be a great selling point if he compromises & agrees to it?  He will not be able to blame the Republicans if he signs the bill.  Dammit, he's the President & he has to stop being such a wuss.  The potential of adding $700 billion to an already huge deficit is alarming.  We need to take some drastic action - NOW - or we will be in worse shape in 2 years.  I for one do NOT want to see him capitulate to the Republicans in this area.



GoYard - I agree with you.  But if it comes to no extension vs extension of all, what do you do?  For the good of the Country, I hope Obama wins on this issue.  However, should he lose, blaming the Republicans for allowing the debt to increase could offset the "debt President" label they'll put on him in 2012.  My point is if the House refuses to go along with the President on these extensions, there may be some political hay to be made.  Obviously, you're assuming they could get this done before January but I think the Senate may ultimately determine if that's possible.
Don't worry it is not in his DNA to sign on to the cuts. 
Right now, I'm a little more worried about the Feds actions than I am the ping pong game being played by the Dems,Republicans,President,Axelrod,etc with the tax increases....do what you gotta do & get it over with.


Let them keep acting like they are now & there will be another bunch of them from BOTH parties looking for a real job in 2012.



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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #37 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/12/AR2010111204494.html
Looks like they got a lot more on their plates than the Bush taxes...do you think they are up to the job.Few of them are probably pretty sour at the current time.....going to take some leadership.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #38 

oldscout - I linked one positive achievement after another the last couple days such as a new GI Bill, end of lifetime limits on health coverage, and biggest middle class tax cut in history to name the last three.  I also linked two websites suggesting this President bears minimal responsibility for our long term projected debt despite the Right labeling him the "debt" President.  I wanted to avoid talking about what we didn't like about the man and focus on what things this President has done that shocked Conservatives or terribly hurt this Country?  So far we've got extended unemployment benefits and Volt subsidies.  Gotta take more than that to start a new Party.

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #39 
Dewey- I'll throw a few at you.
1. Not only Volt, that is just part of it,but the bailout of GM in total,paid for with Taxpayers monies.
2. The growth of government workers & their salaries since Obama has become President & more to come as they start adding people for the HC boards,IRS,etc.
3.2011 budget in total. when you are running in the red,one doesn't go ahead & plan to spend more.
4.HC bill,this to me is #1,there is no one that knows how much this is going to cost.You think it will pay for itself,imho it will end up costing us billions.They didn't include the doc fix in it & now I see they are probably going to have to extend it or Drs.[some] will not take Med. patients...where the money to come from?I see that they have given up to 111 companies waivers on the HC bill & it's only Nov[some very large cos.]
5. The millions added to the Medicaid roles are going to have to be paid by someone in the states that took the money from the stimulus to help them year one[after that they are on their own].
6.Many of the states that took money to help save public jobs[teachers,fireman,police] & didn't make cuts just put a band-aid on things & will be needing more money next year.
7. I heard a little blib today while walking[on am radio] that Obama budget for the wars is about the same as under Bush-I think he planned for that to be much smaller.
I realize that Obama stepped into a tough situation,but he put other things ahead of our economy while he had the majority & the support & let things go to hell in a handcart. Whatever debt he received from Bush has increased 2-3 fold under Obama & it looks as if he is not done spending yet.

As I have said before, I hope the guy takes a hint from the Clinton days & works with EVERYONE to turn things around & I would be more than happy to support him-but I just don't see it happening.
The problem with the current recovery is that it is much slower than recoveries from past recessions & he is our leader & thus his policies are shouldering the blame. I know you & others want to continue to lay off the blame on others,but I don't see it working.Not sure if it's fair to call him the"DEBT" president & I don't think I have used that name, but he sure isn't doing anything about it.

By the way, I did a little survey of my own,asked my kids,couple of my Grand kids,3 at place I volunteer,3 neighbors & 3 others[ so it's not scientific] if they got a tax cut from Obama & not ONE knew what I was talking about? Wonder why?

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #40 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

I realize that Obama stepped into a tough situation,but he put other things ahead of our economy...and let things go to hell in a handcart.


oldscout - Thanks.  You wrote a lot there but little about what alternative steps should have been taken.  What specifically did you want him to do for our economy?  Meanwhile, I'll respond to your other points.

There were less Federal workers, (postal excluded), in 2009 than 1990.  In 2009, Obama used his power to cut the planned 2.4% wage increase to 2%.  Homeland Security is responsible for much of the increase in Government workers.

Without GM bailout, there would have been more unemployed workers.  Is this about jobs or not?  That said, I understand the opposition to all bailouts but I believe it represents the minority.  Many Republicans understood the need for TARP.

Tax cuts may not have been realized as they were incorporated in weekly payroll checks.  Working couples got $800 and I'll admit, one big check instead of weekly distributions may have scored him more political points.  

Health reform could not have come as a surprise to Conservatives as I'm certain a President Clinton would have provided the same.

So as it relates to "go to hell in a handcart", we're up to Volt subsidies, extended unemployment, and GM bailout.  In a collapsing economy, with millions out of work, keeping people employed is deserving of a better characterization.

If you're putting three kids through college, and you take a severe cut in hours and pay at work, do you take one kid out of college to balance your budget or do you borrow in the short term and reap the rewards three college grads will produce over time?  If some sacrifice today can lead to a better tomorrow, then I understand it.     

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #41 
oldscout - Whether it's been obvious or not, my recent posts have mostly been designed for one purpose...to illustrate how unfair comments like "debt President", "take back our Country", "2nd amendment remedies", "he allowed things to go to hell in a handcart", and "he didn't do anything about it" actually are.  These comments, born from Cable and talk radio, are being adopted and repeated on a daily basis in hopes of changing the political landscape.  This once in a lifetime economic catastrophe has become the perfect tool for use by the Right to regain power.  There should be no doubt that opponents of President Obama had absolutely no alternative remedies to help alleviate this painful period and simply criticized each step he took to further their cause.  

The Republicans, if elected, would have been subject to the same recommendations as President Obama when it came to solving our problems.  In fact, they had already tipped their hand.  If there were any economic steps they would have included, that this President didn't, I have yet to hear of them. 

Contrary to "doing nothing about it", this President has taken many steps to improve the economy, keep workers on the job, and supplement the unemployed who fell victim to this great tragedy.  There are several studies that show he prevented a much worse scenario and turned our economy around.

The bottom fell out of our economy and, regardless of all the steps we've taken, the deficit will remain large and last for several years.  This President will be pounded hard on a daily basis for a debt he was minimally responsible for.  Republicans do not have to make suggestions on how to grow the economy or reduce the debt nor do they probably have any.  To date, they've simply asked to keep everything as is, (other than health reform).  Two more years of controlled and unfair criticizing of everything President Obama does, coupled with the unlikelihood our debt can be significantly reduced by then, may just bring about a GOP victory in 2012.  Never has a tragedy been used for so much political gain, and in such a public way, as this one.  At least that's what I think.     

 
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

I realize that Obama stepped into a tough situation,but he put other things ahead of our economy...and let things go to hell in a handcart.



oldscout - Thanks.  You wrote a lot there but little about what alternative steps should have been taken.  What specifically did you want him to do for our economy?  Meanwhile, I'll respond to your other points.

There were less Federal workers, (postal excluded), in 2009 than 1990.  In 2009, Obama used his power to cut the planned 2.4% wage increase to 2%.  Homeland Security is responsible for much of the increase in Government workers.

Without GM bailout, there would have been more unemployed workers.  Is this about jobs or not?  That said, I understand the opposition to all bailouts but I believe it represents the minority.  Many Republicans understood the need for TARP.

Tax cuts may not have been realized as they were incorporated in weekly payroll checks.  Working couples got $800 and I'll admit, one big check instead of weekly distributions may have scored him more political points.  

Health reform could not have come as a surprise to Conservatives as I'm certain a President Clinton would have provided the same.

So as it relates to "go to hell in a handcart", we're up to Volt subsidies, extended unemployment, and GM bailout.  In a collapsing economy, with millions out of work, keeping people employed is deserving of a better characterization.

If you're putting three kids through college, and you take a severe cut in hours and pay at work, do you take one kid out of college to balance your budget or do you borrow in the short term and reap the rewards three college grads will produce over time?  If some sacrifice today can lead to a better tomorrow, then I understand it.     

I guess what I would have done different was to have went after the unemployed first without pushing through a HC bill with little or no feedback from the other party. As I said before, the day Obama said,"We won,so get over it",it was pretty much over. Only time will tell who will be right on this one.

I do think the fighting & all has made businesses unsure & thus holding back at a time that we need them.I think Obama knows that he has come across as anti-business & I hope for his sake & ours that he makes an effort to correct this.
While I'm not into the #s like you are,but I think that the fed payroll has went up much more than 2%. Also read that with all the new regulations & all that State & local Gov workers have increased. Also they are expecting to hire more Gov with the HC bill,unless the commission suggestions put a halt to it or some type of freeze.
I understanded the need for TARP & in fact supported it,but I don't think it should have went to GM & on top of it,we will never get our money back from them.
The one thing they better do...is do away with ATM.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #43 

oldscout - I meant to say individual pay increases were reduced to 2%.  I have no idea what Federal payroll is.  As for healthcare, my point was any Democrat President was going to push and adopt reform.  I know those on the Right are against it and it is fair game to call it out any way you wish.  If you think it is going to be bad for the Country, run on it.  It's the economic labels that I find tantamount to lies, particularly when this President has cut taxes and returned growth in GDP. 

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #44 
Kind of along the lines we are talking about: I was reading a Leonard Pitts column from a few days ago[ yes, i read 3-4 of his columns every week] & he was talking about the " Restore sanity " rally & how politicians & certain media types[ex.Rush,Fox,etc.] are causing problems with their chatter about Mexicans, Muslims,Gays ,Etc. He more or less was blaming people being scared by the right as the reason for the losses in the election.He seemed to be supporting the rally.
I had not seen much on the rally,so I went on utube & watched a few clips. What surprised me was that after reading Pitt's column I thought I'd see a little more diversity in the crowd,but other than the people seeming to be a little more foot lose & fancy free,the crowd was almost the same.

So here's my opinion on why  the Dems took such a drubbing in the election. It was not evil politicians & media types that handed the Dems the beating,nor was it the chattering by the cable news channels  or talk radio,It was plain & simple the lack of enthusiasm of the same electorate that supported " Hope & change" just 2 short years ago

It's the right & the Conservative that are fired up, you better get your troops fired up good buddy.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #45 
Dewey-I also have been interested in what the President felt about the losses in the elections earlier this month.With him being out of the country,we haven't received much feed back from him & I don't give much credence to Pelosi's thoughts or the Axelrods of the world.
I searched through some articles on a few things the President did say before he left the country & here imo is an example of the kind of thoughts that make President Obama appear to be ABOVE us all.
" The reason that our politics seem so tough right now, and facts & science & argument  do not seem to be winning the day all the time is because we are hard-wired not to think clearly when we are scared". He went on to say that those that do not support statism have an inability to " think clearly" & that his DETRACTORS," basic political strategy has been to count on you having amnesia".
He says this after 60 + Republicans get elected to the house & 7-8 more to Senate.
You many times ask me what I have against the president & it is comments like this.Its like he is saying you are stupid & scared & not smart enough to know what you want or need.Don't listen to others,I have the answers-JMO.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #46 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

It's the right & the Conservative that are fired up, you better get your troops fired up good buddy.


Between talk radio and some on cable, I don't how I'm going to get the truth out there.  We did get health reform, wall street reform, increased college access, and a new GI bill and soon, people will see the advantages these programs offer.  Unfortunately, we still have too many that mistakenly believe this President destroyed the economy and put a lot of people out of work.  That myth has to be erased.  I'm afraid to say it may take 6-7% unemployment rate to save the day and that may be an impossibility before 2012.   
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #47 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

You many times ask me what I have against the president & it is comments like this. Its like he is saying you are stupid & scared & not smart enough to know what you want or need.Don't listen to others,I have the answers-JMO.


I stopped wondering long ago why you, or anyone else, doesn't like this President personally.  That's not important to me and those folks aren't going to change their opinion.  I'm spending my time now asking what he's done to destroy the Country, where did it go that it needs to be taken back, what Republicans would have done to keep it from going wherever it supposedly went, and why they are putting all this debt on him? 
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

You many times ask me what I have against the president & it is comments like this. Its like he is saying you are stupid & scared & not smart enough to know what you want or need.Don't listen to others,I have the answers-JMO.


I stopped wondering long ago why you, or anyone else, doesn't like this President personally.  That's not important to me and those folks aren't going to change their opinion.  I'm spending my time now asking what he's done to destroy the Country, where did it go that it needs to be taken back, what Republicans would have done to keep it from going wherever it supposedly went, and why they are putting all this debt on him? 
I know what you mean,I was wondering a while back why people hated president Bush so much & blamed him for everything from Fannie/freddie-housing bubble-Katrina etc. I guess it was because he was president at the time & as Harry said," The buck stops here"....but feel free to keep looking for who is at fault.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #49 
oldscout - just one quick question on a comment you made a few posts ago. 

You said that "Obama said,'We won,so get over it'" - and you referenced that with regards to "working with each other".  How, exactly, do you differentiate that stated comment with the one Bush made shortly after his election (forget the "exact" words, but it went something like "my win gave me a lot of political capital, and now I plan to spend it"??

His victory, if I recall, was less than the majority of Obamas, but Bush made it very clear that he intended to do whatever he saw fit to do, regardless of the other side, as he earned that "political capital" with his magnificent victory.

How quickly we forget.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #50 
Dewey - The reverse was true of me and my view of Bush Jr.  I would have loved to have had a beer with the man (I think I would like the guy), but his administration did a number of things (I won't elaborate here except for Iraq and Afghanistan, and redistribution of wealth upward to the wealthy class where he and his family existed) that helped to bring negative effects to my nation and to create an unbelievable national debt which we will be paying and which will dominate politics for generations - but the wealthy did get more wealthy (mission accomplished).   
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #51 
JG - I agree former President Bush is a probably a nice man.  I'm not into an Obama vs Bush discussion but I have brought up the former President's tax cuts as being a major contributor to our current debt.  Many think this is a continuation of a blame Bush scenario but I see it as countering the current claims that President Obama is primarily responsible for the mess we are in.  Let me know if you think I'm succeeding.

I have no problem with Conservatives honestly being against health care reform.  At least here they're consistent.  They don't like Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid either.  I get that.  But to suggest this President is destroying the Country economically is insincere in my opinion.  We all know why this Country is hurting financially and that many bear responsibility.  Disagree all you want with GM bailouts or cash for clunkers but they were honest attempts to spur the economy and we can debate their success.  My problem comes with those who absorb the propaganda that he's the "debt President" or that he's doing nothing, particularly when it's never followed with a proposal of their own.  I think this President saved us from a tragic depression and I'm sure those on the Right disagree.  Fine.  Just offer up what should have been done and what things may have looked like otherwise.  Opposition to health reform, (it's not called Obamacare), is fair game.  "Debt President" and/or "hell in a handcart", (sorry oldscout), are unfair characterizations serving no purpose other than to mislead the electorate.    
masare

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Reply with quote  #52 

Oldscout, I think the biggest gripe people had with Bush was the war!

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #53 
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/krugman-death-panels-vat/2010/11/14/id/377008?s=al&promo_code=B1AB-1 

Maybe Krugman has the answer....I love the last line about Chelsey.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #54 

Quote:
Originally Posted by indyrun
oldscout - just one quick question on a comment you made a few posts ago. 

You said that "Obama said,'We won,so get over it'" - and you referenced that with regards to "working with each other".  How, exactly, do you differentiate that stated comment with the one Bush made shortly after his election (forget the "exact" words, but it went something like "my win gave me a lot of political capital, and now I plan to spend it"??

His victory, if I recall, was less than the majority of Obamas, but Bush made it very clear that he intended to do whatever he saw fit to do, regardless of the other side, as he earned that "political capital" with his magnificent victory.

How quickly we forget.
I remember that well & it upset you,but because he said it,I'm not suppose to be upset about Obama's comments?

I think almost all presidents  & the media talk about the political capital gained through the elections & what they intend to use it for & Bush made this as a general statement.I think Obama made his statement in a little different setting.I understand your distaste for Bush,you have made it clear
FYI,you might note, that I have many times said that Bush tossed his conservative values to the side & made many mistakes during his time in office, I was disappointed in him after voting for him on 4 occasions in my life...although I do believe the man thought he was doing the right things & you know what,I think president Obama believes in all he is doing & his ways...so be it, it just so happens that Obamas goals & ideology & mine are light years apart.


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by masare

Oldscout, I think the biggest gripe people had with Bush was the war!

No doubt about it.

Do sometimes wonder why we don't hear much about the war/s anymore,kind of on 2nd page?


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #56 
Serious question:  At what age do you think that old folk should stop thinking about and debating politics, and just leave it to the next generation whom current politics will affect more?     
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #57 
Serious question:  At what age do you think that old folk should stop thinking about and debating politics, and just leave it to the next generation whom current politics will affect more?
 
Serious answer: From the perspective of the older folk, tomorrow. From the viewpoint of that next generation, yesterday.

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POV

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Reply with quote  #58 
One of my concerns is that the current generation will get the impression that what is going on in the political culture today is accepted behavior and become complacent....if they haven't already.  The perspective that the seasoned citizen brings is that "this is not par for the course, it shouldn't be this way."  The corporate takeover of Washington is a good example.  It has become so blatant now that the self serving, bought & paid for politician doesn't even go to the effort is disguising his favoritism anymore.  I still cringe when I think back to just this summer of  GOP Rep. Joe Barton, the ranking member on the House Energy Committee apologizing to BP for the "shakedown."  Unbelievable!  Even more unbelievable is that Barton was re-elected to his 14th term to the House of Representatives.  Today's political culture will continue breed when the voters continue make choices like this.

So Frank.......we have to keep telling the tell while we wait for Captain Walker.
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #59 

And it really becomes potentially "even more dangerous" when it creeps into comments/actions by our Supreme Court - some recent examples indicate that we might already be there.

Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #60 

POV--It cuts both ways, lest we forget the re-election of Charles Rangle to say the least! I agree, the Sr. perspective is valued and needed. I too hope that the current sentiment does not remain. It is toxic. Proper decorum and needs to be restored. And that goes for the roll of past presidents as well!


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