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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #1 
I've spent the better part of a day or two talking politics with oldscout and softballfanatic.  Forty five hundred members and I can't get more than two to talk about the issues facing our Country today.  Why is that?  We're out of season, over here hiding in the misc section, doing no harm to anyone, and having an open conversation about what this Country needs and only a few of us can have a civil chat about what goes on around us.  Woody's hunting, Seabiscuit pretty much gave up, DaddyO's nearly MIA, and Vol chimes in every now and then.  I know there are some other regulars on the Right who don't come immediately to mind right now.

From my side, I appreciate the contributions of POV, masare, GoYard, GoHawks, and others but I'm surprised that less than one percent of our membership care to share their thoughts on the political news of the day.

Part of me gets why some choose not to contribute while part of me has no idea why many choose to stay away.  Do some of you find it necessary to be persuasive?  Do you think it's not worth the effort?  Maybe you feel this is the wrong forum.  Heck, if I get drawn into political talk anywhere else but here, the little lady says, hey how about we stop this now?  So this is the perfect place for me to share my thoughts and I'm shocked that few others feel the same.

I'll admit there are a few here that I wish would stay away but there must be hundreds out there with something to contribute.  Maybe they have another outlet or prefer not to mix softball with politics.  In any event, I can't help but believe their contributions here would be good for us and good for them.  And we'll never get in the way of college softball so please, don't be shy.
   
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #2 
Dewey - Actually there are only two reasons why I don't regularly join in the Great Conversation here about politics, federal finances, etc.  The first and most important is relative ignorance when measured against those here most knowledgeable.  The second is a potential tendency (which I fight against) to meet mean spirited posts with mean spirited posts.  I don't like myself when I do that (and admire your restraint) but I also refuse to be someone else's verbal pin cushion.  When I have something that I think of merit, I'll write it, but I'm afraid that I cannot be a regular member of either the Conservative or Liberal club.   
PS - In addition to your restraint, I also admire your knowledge of things political and economic.  

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #3 
Dewey - I read all of it, and once in a while comment, but you used the term "civil chat", and I find it extremely hard, if not impossible, to deal in a civil fashion or tone with some of the posters here, so usually just find it more productive to just read. 

BUT, the main reason I don't really participate often, is that you, JG, GoYard, POV, Bill Smith (inadvertantly, initially left Bill's powerful voice out), and a few others are just SO much more knowledgeable of the "detail" of the subject matter and, almost without exception (once in a while might sort of disagree with your "nice guys" approach), you all verbalize MY particular thoughts. 

I'm sure my positions often stretch even your/JGs limits, as I have grown to have little, if ANY, agreement with ANY position taken by those on the right.  My deep feeling are SO opposite, it's hard for me to even try to talk civilly with them.

I'll just continue to observe and let you wise folks on the left, continue to do what you do so well.  Sorry, but I'm here in heart and spirit, if not verbally. 
DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Do some of you find it necessary to be persuasive? 


Nope.  I find it necessary to try to present my arguments based on common sense and historical perspective.  I don't pretend that I will have some kind of magic mind unlock where anyone would 'see the light'.  I simply try to explain why I believe what I believe, with no apologies. 

I will also never fall for any attempt by anyone on the other side to try to silence my beliefs by shaming me with some ridiculous label (bigot, racist, homophobe, etc.)  Whenever those words get used, I take it that the opposition has nothing to counter with other than an Alinsky tactic.

Quote:
 Do you think it's not worth the effort? 


Sometimes.  "DaddyO, give us an example!".  OK.  To me, it's not worth the effort when I reject the premise of the question.  For instance, there has been a notion on this board recently that tax cuts have to be 'paid for'.  To me, this is a load of bovine excrement.  Why doesn't there instead have to be a reduction of spending?  It is as if no one can ever consider serious spending reductions; the premise is that spending will always have to increase.  IMHO, that kind of thinking has us at a 14 trillion dollar deficit. 

David Gregory interviewed Chris Christie this past weekend and Gregory presented this very argument regarding how the Bush tax cuts should be handled.  Christie then accused Gregory of advocating for a tax increase, and Gregory got really uncomfortable and accused Christie of being 'unfair'.  THAT is how it should be handled.

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oldscout

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Reply with quote  #5 
Dewy- Could not agree with you more.
I enjoy the political debate & in giving my opinion & as I have said many times it is just that.
I have most likely been painted into the far-right corner,because of my opposition to Obama policies & " We won,get over it " attitude That's ok,but I'm not a huge proponent of certain right leaning people & sources[FNC,Rush,Hannity,etc.] that I get accused of as most threads progress, that's not ok.
I think many have backed off because the threads usually get hijacked & there is the back-forth that has nothing to do with anything.
I am who I am & while most don't know me personally,they do know I have a son who is a college coach & for that reason I worry about offending someone I that I have no idea who they are....heck they might be one of his players parents.
I hope we can continue & get some new posters...maybe this thread will help.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #6 
No time now but a few quick points.  JG and indy, I already include you as regular participants willing to share your views.  The purpose of my post was to wonder out loud why there are so few of us overall in this large forum?  DaddyO was singled out because he used to regularly share a well thought out view and then reduced his role.

DaddyO - I hope you don't include me in that tax cuts must be paid for scenario.  I am simply trying to convince others that tax cuts increase the deficit and helped raise our debt significantly.  Yes, for this reason I don't want an extension of tax cuts for those earning above $250,000 because this President is paying a big enough price already for our debt.  And by all means, call me out if I ever use one of those "labels".  As for the rest of your post, welcome back. 

Now I'm late.  Until later, have a good one.
POV

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Reply with quote  #7 
Just a couple of cents worth....

Increasing I find reading/contributing to the Misc forum as not worth time out of my life.  The belief systems are set and any attempt or fact at/in disputing a pillar of that system is met with rebuke, abuse, and/or vulgarity by a  vocal few.  Not a healthy breeding ground for any discussion, especially one regarding politics.  So I can see why some choose not to get involved. The Misc. forum can be an ugly  place......why subject yourself to it if you don't have to? 

To Dewey and Joisey:  On a regular basis I take note of your tolerance, patience, restraint and kindness.  With your command of the language and knowledge of the given subject matter you both, with a few swift keystrokes could dismantle and/or humiliate any poster on this board with ease, but .......you don't. Many times the situation calls for kid gloves and sure enough....out they come.  Just wanted to say that it doesn't go unnoticed and that it's a joy to watch you gentlemen work.  (This alone plays a big part in my logging in)

Might want to check out this site.  Serious discussions and serious about enforcing their posting rules.

Common Ground Common Sense
vol52

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Reply with quote  #8 
Dewey,

I don't post much because in most all venues on UCS I would not be considered an expert.  I still enjoy reading intelligent discourse and hope to learn something, even if it amounts to observing human nature, and there is plenty to observe on UCS!

Politically, I am pretty simple. I believe in personal responsibility, but also want to be compassionate and generous with what I have been blessed. I voted a split ticket last week, but that is easy to do in this part of the country because the line is somewhat blurred between Democrat and Republican.  The Tennessean even endorsed the Republican candidate for governor.  I probably feel safest when the power in Washington is split between the two parties.  When one side controls the presidency and Congress there usually is not restraint in agenda.  I thought about voting for Obama just to shake things up, but could not get around some of the people with whom he associated with in the past, especially Jeremiah Wright.  Many folks on here are very prone to the far side of the pendulum either way, so nothing I say will have any effect towards changing their minds, as Indy acknowledged and PGP reflects.  I think there is some truth to be found on either side.

As far as economic theory, I don't know enough to even be dangerous.  I believe in living within my means, paying off my credit cards every month, and not getting into more debt than I can handle.  From the questions you have posed, I agree that massive deficit spending is wrong...both parties are to blame...but am not sure how much taxation can be called on without bringing down economic growth and stability.  I question if the "experts" have a handle on that either. I think Oldscout is right when he said that we need to, for once, consider reducing our spending.  

I also agree that the name calling is counterproductive.  But, while not necessarily true on UCS, it seems that both sides are equally guilty.  For every reference to "Keith Overbite" I remember prominent politicians or pundits using terms such as "liar," "fascist," etc., when referring to the other side.

Keep posting, and understand that some of us are still reading for some good food for thought.
_______________
Steve Rhodes
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #9 
POV - Thanks for the link and thanks even more for the kind words, (I'll thank you here because if I remember right, your profile isn't setup to take PM's).

I hear your concerns and it's my belief that should the contributors to this forum increase, the negative voices will decrease.  Maybe that's a bit optimistic. 

Please know that Joisey's words go from head to keyboard immediately and, while I appreciate being mentioned in the same sentence as my friend JG, I'm no where close to his league.  Yours truly needs significant time to think, write, read, rewrite, reread, and rethink before I ever hit "post message".  It's not that easy for me to verbalize or arrange thoughts and, if you ever meet me live, please reduce your expectations. 

There are those here that are less concerned with discussing issues and more into ridicule and attacks.  Some of that takes place on our side too and, admittedly, I rarely call them out.  I know that doesn't go over well with my detractors but it's hard for me to chastise one on our side when I feel they are being baited.  Here's hoping all of that decreases significantly, contributors increase, and the discussions in the weeks and months ahead are much more constructive.  Now stick with us POV.    
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vol52

Keep posting, and understand that some of us are still reading for some good food for thought.
_______________
Steve Rhodes


Steve - Great post and your last statement emphasizes my original point.  A few of us are "starving" for more and, considering we have 4500 members, are surprised so few are willing to share.  I learn so much reading and understanding those who think differently than me and I can only hope I offer them a little something too.  Imagine if there were many more.   
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #11 
Dewey, please explain in a civil way, how the country can afford to give 95% of the tax payers a tax cut but we can't afford to give the other 5% a tax cut. Where is the logic in that? If giving 5% a tax cut will drives us too far in debt, then what will happen cutting the taxes for 95%?
I will answer for you. It is not a matter of "logic". It is a matter of social justice. Democrats don't want anyone to have too much, so they will punish achievement. 
Obama said on the campaign trail, "It's a matter of fairness." In other words, it is not fair for someone to make too much more than the next guy.
Once again, create class envy, victims and bad guys, divide and conquer.
If I have it wrong, please explain the logic in the "selective" tax cuts as they effect the debt.

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Jack Dandy
woody

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Reply with quote  #12 
Dewey, many who view and lurk in this forum may be under the impression that once they post here, they may be labeled as political and can't have a normal discussion on the softball forum. This may in someway contribute to the lack of posts. I notice on the contrary, that people who post on the misc. forum go out of their way to be cordial and carry on good conversations on the softball forum. Hey we are all softball parents, right? Maybe a warning on the forum boards alluding to the fact that this is a PG35+ discussion board, and leave your quivering bottom lip and that note from your Mom at the door kind of forum might entice some of the more prudent to venture into the "Swamp". That might be a better name for this mosh pit rather than the misc. forum. The name Misc. Forum has such a vanilla feel good thing going against it. Next thing ya know we will be swapping recipes.
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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDandy

Dewey, please explain in a civil way, how the country can afford to give 95% of the tax payers a tax cut but we can't afford to give the other 5% a tax cut. Where is the logic in that?


JD - If you have been reading my previous posts, you will have read my comment that should tax rates be extended on the first $250,000 of taxable income, every, and I mean every, taxpayer in this Country will pay lower taxes than if we allow the rates to expire.  That is 100%.  What you are focusing on is income that 95-99% of us will never see and how it should be treated.  I think income over $250,000 can stand a return to the Clinton era rates without significant damage to those taxpayers while also helping to avoid an increase in our debt situation.  Again, extending tax rates on only the first $250,000 of income allows everyone who pays taxes some tax relief.  Everyone.

I'm happy to explain my position to you, or any others here, but we both know you didn't have to add the terms "civil way".  Now share your thoughts if you care to. 
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #14 
Dewey, is that what Obama is proposing? Because they I understood it, if you make over 200K (or 250K for a couple) your taxes rate will go up.
You make it sound like the first 250K that they earn is taxed less than the rest. I am pretty certain that is not the case. 

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Jack Dandy
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #15 
JD - A joint return pays 10% of the first $17,000 or so, then 15% of the next $51,000, then 25% of the next $69,000, then 28% of additional monies up to $209,000, and so on.  Keeping those four rates the same applies to everyone, even those who continue on into higher brackets.  Relief applies to the first $250,000 of income, as noted below from an article linked.


 
Tax brackets can be found in this article.
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #16 

Dewey I was not aware of that. I was under the impression that you were taxed at the rate of which ever bracket you fall into.


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When Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in an empty suit and promising hope and change.

Jack Dandy
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #17 
Dewey- While I got to run like to throw a couple comments out.
I spent quite a bit of time reading on Paul Ryan's site last night & I think he is proposing much more than spending cuts. He has a plan for long term entitlement reform[thats why not even the rhinos in his own party back him],says that their must be stimulus[more],but must be directed at business & getting them to invest in their companies..expand & hire.
He also says that if the Republicans believe we don't have to raise taxes to get out of this mess they are headed for bad times.He points out we must be selective in our tax increases & INCLUDE tax reform in the long term plan.
Dewey- this guy is at least out there with an extensive plan & at the worse, his plan would be a starting point.All my comments are not his quotes,but just some things I picked up from going over his site.
To all-I listened to the President talk in India...Question: Is he pushing for a one world government-seems like he was laying out some plans for it? Kind of saying that the US better get used to not being # 1 anymore? I don't know maybe it's just me listening out of my RIGHT ear.

As some know I volunteer at Hope House & we give out food/hc staples to people in need,plus have a resale shop & give out clothes vouchers,etc.
We normally do about 350 food carts per month, we are over 275 this month & its the 10th. There are a lot of people hurting...help out this Holiday season if you can.
They asked me to lead the group prayer before opened last Monday-so got them all to sing along with " Jesus Loves ME", it was cool 30 old retired people belting out the favorite song of their youth[everyone knew the words],& had no problem singing out. I bet God looked down & saw the group & said to HIMSELF," This is good".

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #18 

Scout - it's things like this that make me think that there will be a day when you hear 'Well done, good and faithful servant!'.   


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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #19 
oldscout - You are definitely a contributor.  Good work.  I'm curious, what is the attitude of these needy folks?  Are they contributors too who have fallen on rough times?  Do they remain optimistic?  Charitable work is precious but can charitable work alone be enough?  No doubt Hope House is too busy to take time out and grapple with that large and debatable question.  Thanks for your hard efforts and good luck to you and those you're helping.

As for Paul Ryan, if you saw him on the Sunday show with Chris Wallace, you heard revenue was not going to be addressed.  He said we had no revenue problem, only spending problems.  I wonder what his answer would have been if asked if wars were spending problems.  Should alternative revenues be raised when fighting wars, or should other spending just be cut?  Many disagree with me but, if you think you are busy now oldscout, wait until those who want drastic cuts get their way.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDandy

Dewey I was not aware of that. I was under the impression that you were taxed at the rate of which ever bracket you fall into.


JD - You're not alone.
DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #21 
Dewey - I can only imagine how much better off charities like Hope House would be if government money was NOT used to fund them partially.  The inefficiencies, the favoritism - all gone.  Joe and Jane Citizen with the ability to directly fund said charities with no government bureaucrat in the way, taking 80% of it and then deciding who is 'worthy' to get the other 20%. 

I would GLADLY support any temporary fundraising - war bonds, reductions in existing programs or tax increase - to fund a war, provided the Congress had the discipline to truly apply the revenue to the war, and if any tax increase were temporary.  Wars, however unpleasant they may be, are explicitly provided by the Constitution and are thus a valid government action.  

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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #22 

I for one am all for Ryan's plan! And I can't believe the dems would need to know more details! I think we should go for it whole hog as they say! If it doesn't work perfectly, we can tweak it as we find what needs tweaking! Wasn't that the dems approach on the healthcare bill?


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DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #23 

Fanatic - maybe we should just pass it so we can find out what's in it. 


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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyO

Scout - it's things like this that make me think that there will be a day when you hear 'Well done, good and faithful servant!'.   

DaddyO- I 'm not trying to score any points with anyone with the volunteer work & things I do, I know it's not the way it works & please know that I'm not bragging about what I do-just trying to reach out to others to get them to help out,even a day here or there helps.

We had a cool young guy come in today & volunteer,he worked his tail off doing a lot of stocking of the heavy cases of food,his grandma told him he needs to go to Hope House & help those old duffers in the food pantry. He was sweating when he left,but said ," Thanks for letting me help.I'll be back Friday".
Thanks for the kind comments just the same.....needless to say,I got a lot of making up to do for the years I thought it was all about me.

" When I stop caring about MY anything then I'll be free".


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #25 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
oldscout - You are definitely a contributor.  Good work.  I'm curious, what is the attitude of these needy folks?  Are they contributors too who have fallen on rough times?  Do they remain optimistic?  Charitable work is precious but can charitable work alone be enough?  No doubt Hope House is too busy to take time out and grapple with that large and debatable question.  Thanks for your hard efforts and good luck to you and those you're helping.

As for Paul Ryan, if you saw him on the Sunday show with Chris Wallace, you heard revenue was not going to be addressed.  He said we had no revenue problem, only spending problems.  I wonder what his answer would have been if asked if wars were spending problems.  Should alternative revenues be raised when fighting wars, or should other spending just be cut?  Many disagree with me but, if you think you are busy now oldscout, wait until those who want drastic cuts get their way.
Dewey- Ryans plan appears to be much more detailed than I think was brought out on that show.

I think we will find out it has many of the points that Obama's Commission is going to suggest coming up,except I think he's went into more detail.
I think you can go on his site & ask him questions about his plan or anything else & he trys to answer them in a short period.


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #26 

Scout - I didn't take it that way, and I stick by my comment because you 'get it'. 


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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #27 
oldscout - I think Mr. Ryan is on that commission.
 
US Deficit Panel Proposes Curbs on Social Security
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
oldscout - I think Mr. Ryan is on that commission.
 
US Deficit Panel Proposes Curbs on Social Security
Thats fantastic...he is one sharp cat.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #29 
http://www.cnbc.com/id/40135092
Might be of interest,emailed to me by my WF advisor.
I sure hope the Fed is not making a mistake with the easing

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #30 
Had a good discussion with DaddyO, JG, and softballfanatic regarding flat tax vs progressive tax today and I forgot to ask the one question I always ask when discussing this subject.  I'll stick it here and hope they find it.

Assume for the sake of discussion that Bush tax cuts are extended permanently.  Secondly assume, (I read this somewhere), that 5% of the top individual income taxpayers pay 60% of the taxes.  The question is...if we install the flat tax you have in mind, would the top 5% catch a break or would the other 95% find tax relief?  For some reason I always assume it's likely the former when my Republican friends bring this proposal up. 
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