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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #121 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
Does any of you know if we attack Syria which tribe or political group will we be helping.?????


we will be helping the tribe of obama, the tribe of clowns



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"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #122 
Given, that the general population does not support action and the international community is overwhelmingly against it, if Congress does not give him their approval, I would certainly hope he will not take action.  I would think that would be a clear case for impeachment.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #123 

Dewey,

Has anyone here discussed the transportation of oil and Syria's role in such?

There are many South Africa countries where atrocities have been documented. The world "police" have turned a blind eye, deaf ear and wide berth. There have been attacks on the populace of other countries where the US and UN have taken a hands-off policy.

Why Syria?

Perhaps oil. Or the transportation of such through and across its borders. Just a thought. As James Thurber once said, "You could look it up."


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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #124 
Bill - I agree about the other atrocities and you will hear many people repeat your point exactly.  Again, I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to know the reasons why but I'm going to guess the options available to us there were few, cruise missiles were probably useless, and the surrounding nations that may have been threatened likely didn't carry the national security importance some of our other allies possess.  In other words, the damage to Jordan, Turkey, and other surrounding allies in the Mideast are more critical to our security interests than those poor neighboring Countries in Africa.  Finally, Hammer will join you regarding oil as a potential reason for our involvement but I can't see it.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #125 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
Does any of you know if we attack Syria which tribe or political group will we be helping.?????

Tribes? No idea and don't care.

The Free Syrian Army (FSA), the Syrian Liberation Front, the Syrian Islamic Front, and Jabhat al-Nusra seem to be the biggest groups. The second two are Islamists and the third has allegiance to Al-Qaeda. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #126 
 look at this one

McCain playing poker on his iPhone

As the hearing continues, our ace photographer Melina Mara reports she spotted Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) “passing the time by playing poker on his iPhone during the hearing.”

We eagerly await the photographic proof, but generally trust Melina’s sharp eye.

Update 5:55 p.m.: And here’s the proof:

Senator John McCain plays poker on his IPhone during a U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations hearing where Secretary of State JohnKerry, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey testify concerning the use of force in Syria, on Capitol Hill in Washington DC, Tuesday, September 3, 2013. (Photo by Melina Mara/The Washington Post)

Senator John McCain plays poker on his IPhone during a U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations hearing where Secretary of State JohnKerry, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey testify concerning the use of force in Syria, on Capitol Hill in Washington DC, Tuesday, September 3, 2013. (Photo by Melina Mara/The Washington Post)

Ed O'Keefe
 





__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #127 
IF this is true, McCain should be removed from office immediately.  IF it's true.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #128 
See where the Senate votes are here.  Interesting tool to see lots of quotes from some senators and where their votes may lie.
__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
bhblue

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Posts: 2,161
Reply with quote  #129 
I think I prefer McCain focus on his Hold'em game rather than chiming in on Syria. Unfortunately, he's not my Senator so I can't vote against him. He is a prime example of what's wrong with the GOP.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #130 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith

Dewey,

Has anyone here discussed the transportation of oil and Syria's role in such?

There are many South Africa countries where atrocities have been documented. The world "police" have turned a blind eye, deaf ear and wide berth. There have been attacks on the populace of other countries where the US and UN have taken a hands-off policy.

Why Syria?

Perhaps oil. Or the transportation of such through and across its borders. Just a thought. As James Thurber once said, "You could look it up."



It's natural gas, primarily from Qatar, destined for Europe, which will cut Russia's Gazprom out of the lucrative EU marketplace.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #131 
Did I miss it, or did we pledge support to Israel if they get attacked?
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #132 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
IF this is true, McCain should be removed from office immediately.  IF it's true.


It is true.

Here is what McCain tweeted, mocking the "scandal!" of playing games in the hearing.

@SenJohnMcCain: Scandal! Caught playing iPhone game at 3+ hour Senate hearing - worst of all I lost!


The problem with getting rid of mcCain is that I'm not sure anyone will even run against him. He takes care of Arizona's booming defense industry, which makes him popular and fills his campaign coffers. Tough combo to beat.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #133 
mikec - We'll always support Israel.  It appears we have their support with regards to this potential intervention.  Other pro-Israel groups support Obama's plan as well.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #134 
Some very interesting cable TV regarding this Syrian resolution.  It appears to me the likes of Hannity, Sen. Paul, Glen Beck, Rush, and Sarah Palin are scaring the daylights out of the established GOP with their strong positions against intervention.

Nice quote, if I can remember it correctly, from Stuart Varney of Fox News..."To walk away from a chemical weapons attack in the 21st century, and do nothing about it, is immoral."
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #135 
What would Stuart Varney say about the atrocities in Darfur?
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #136 
What else would they say in public?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/03/israeli-sources-on-obama-syria-approach-not-how-superpower-acts/
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #137 

Dewey- Hammer is right that it's about oil, but in the case of Syria, it is more about access than production. They aren't, to my knowledge, much of a producer compared to others in the region.

It is always about, "What ya got?". Rubber, titanium, petroleum or the soil over which to transport oil. Don't got it, the big powers aren't much interested. Humanitarian issues? Government here let's Detroit and like communities wither while sending billions abroad. US citizens are living in unspeakable conditions, yet we run to the aid of a country that is being...gassed?

No, it's about the bumbling for crude. Oil that is ... black gold, Texas Tea.

***edit*** There's a reason Israel needs stability in Syria. Beyond the usual reasons. Have been told it is about Syrian government and/or rebels playing clamp it with movement of oil.

***edit x2*** FIB, being simple folk, when gas is discussed, I first attempt to discern from where it comes. Pipelines of gas...me behind on following a conversation assumed, though obviously a distinct difference from crude.

Dewey-there's enough material above for a pun-feast. When you leave, say good night, gracefully.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #138 
mikec - I didn't post Israeli officials.  I posted a poll of the Israeli people and the comments from some pro-Israel groups here in the US.

As to your link, I get the sense these officials wanted Obama to just act.  While they say they "get it" about his going to Congress, you can tell they're not too happy with the extent the US must go before making a necessary decision.  These officials sound like they're in the same mindset as McCain.

Bill - If you are correct, it better illustrates how I'm not anywhere near smart enough to give a qualified opinion about these decisions.  Again, I'll trust the President I voted for and, if it's a total debacle, no doubt my Party will pay some kind of price down the road. 
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #139 

Dewey- You know me, I'm a fence sitter. Not assigning blame, just pointing out the not-so-obvious. It has been no different in any war, police action, intervention, etc. Make it palatable to the populace at home. This goes beyond party lines, as shown. We want it, someone has it and by gosh, we'll go bomb someone until we secure it.

Just wish they'd all be honest about it. Or lie better. Again, both sides.
-----------------------
PS to whoever responded with Regan as the last great leader. Yeah right. Responsible for gutting the Sherman Act. Anti-trust relaxed, big business goes hog wild. That's worked out well? Not in my opinion. Can't be for a free market place and allow the market to become stifled by the biggest purses.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #140 
Bill - greatest economic growth after Carter destroyed the economy.  Took down the Soviet Union and single-handedly ended the Cold War.  Big business is not responsible for any economic problems - you can blame that on meddling politicians like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #141 
Categorizing killing...fair, unfair. Humane, inhumane. Appalling, acceptable. [confused]

Regarding "chemical weapons" being so horrific. Napalm isn't? Detonating a bomb full of shrapnel high above ground troops is "humane"? Bullets that are designed to tumble through an enemy to inflict more damage with less lead...that's humanitarian hubris.

Killing is not good no matter how you do it. It is war. Kill or be killed. If I'm losing, or even winning ugly, I'm gonna kill you with what is available and rewrite history after the battle. It is not splitting hairs in my eyes. Or atoms. We've done it. Why are we so shocked when others imitate.

It is not monkey see, monkey do. It is, "Monkey do, other monkey see, other monkey do...too."

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #142 

pabar-Agreed that Regan stared the borscht chefs in the eye and took `em down Iron Chef style. We outspent and defeated the Soviets. Admirable task and we are now paying for that. Disagree that some of the policies of the Regan era. Believe some were responsible for a fundamental shift in economic tides and the result is centralized corporate control beyond what is healthy for the formerly small business backbone of America. Definitely agree that Freddie, Fannie and Barney all had a hand in a further huge strain on economic conditions.

Regan vs. Soviets = good
Regan vs. Sherman Act = bad

Just my opinion.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #143 
Meanwhile, more remnants of the Obama-Clinton foreign policy debacle are on display in Libya.  Shocking that with a drop in production from 1.4 million barrels a day to 160,000, nothing has been done to correct that.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/special-report-we-all-thought-libya-had-moved-on--it-has-but-into-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #144 
Bill- as usual you are spot on, these things are largely motivated by access and distribution of natural resources. Unfortunately for Africa, their resources aren't viewed as being nearly as important as energy.

As to Syria, here is a recent article from The Guardian that provides a pretty good snapshot of what underlies recent activity, and the wider long term effort that advises US involvement, regardless of which party is in office. It has nothing to do with saving children, and everything to do with money and power.

Note the old guard in Congress signs off on this action against Assad with nary a second thought, as they are well familiar with the bigger picture, having been exposed to it for so long - its just a matter of course. The new young guns, like Amash, Obama when he took office, and many others, tend to be idealistic in this regard.


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines

Ex:

These strategic concerns, motivated by fear of expanding Iranian influence, impacted Syria primarily in relation to pipeline geopolitics. In 2009 - the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria - Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets - albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad's rationale was "to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas."

Instead, the following year, Assad pursued negotiations for an alternative $10 billion pipeline plan with Iran, across Iraq to Syria, that would also potentially allow Iran to supply gas to Europe from its South Pars field shared with Qatar. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project was signed in July 2012 - just as Syria's civil war was spreading to Damascus and Aleppo - and earlier this year Iraq signed a framework agreement for construction of the gas pipelines.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #145 
How Obama survives in this reality:

Note Obama's failed push for green energy was likely inspired by his naïveté with respect to the "big boys geopolitics" of oil. He has since shifted dramatically, not only in energy but the NSA, big banking and international corporatism. He wouldn't have survived otherwise, hence Hope & Change went the way of the dodo bird when he was confronted with the political realities. In short, he sold out his constituency to save his skin. Libs continue to support him because they have so much invested, but if candidate Obama held the views of president Obama, he never would have made it past Hillary. He has however been able to garner some support for his domestic agenda by coming in line on the broader issues. They could easily destroy his presidency over Benghazi, but as long as he plays along with the war and security crowd, he's allowed to survive.

Note that Hillary is already old guard business as usual, which is why she has so much support from the establishment. They will play off the fact she's a woman to get her elected, but in reality she's just another good old boy.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #146 

So, FIB, if I may be so bold as to further your assertions, it could be said that...

While President Obama was once viewed as a "post turtle", that lofty view has given him insight beyond his campaign course and he has come to know the true way of presidential prudence, power of the party (vs. people) and maybe even the Monroe Doctrine.

And Hillary has known all along? Y'all who till the Republican fields better be putting something better in the ground than your last crop for two rotations running.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #147 
Quote:

War is a curious sort of reciprocal mirror. We never see the slaughter and injury our shot causes, only the results of the inevitable retaliation. Hardly any wonder, therefore, that we fall into the error of believing that it's the enemy who are to blame, rather than ourselves.

K. J. PARKER

bhblue

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Reply with quote  #148 
Dewey - Your deference to the president on this issue is predictable and understandable.  I just wonder, if they have this undisputable evidence that it was Assad that used the chemical weapons, why don't they bring this evidence to the UN?  Surely if it's that damning the UN would support action against the Syrian regime.  Putin has even said they would go along.  Or do you and Stuart Varney feel the United Nations is immoral?
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #149 
Don't know who saw Obama's press conference in Sweden, but he is going beyond surreal now.

Pres Obama, red line and Syria:

Pres Obama today: "I didn’t set a red line. The world set a red line. The world set a red line when governments representing 98 percent of world population said the use of chemical weapons are abhorrent."

Pres Obama on August 20, 3012: "...a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized. That would change my calculus. That would change my equation."

Today he also said that his credibility isn't on the line, it is Congress' credibility on the line.
And that he asked Congress for authorization rather than let them "sit on the sidelines and snipe."
And that he will do what he wants no matter what Congress says.

What an ass clown to go on the world stage and throw Congress under the bus like that, and thy everyone's credibility other than his is at stake here. Guy must live in some alternate fantasy universe, which is why no countries are stepping up for his war in Syria.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #150 
McCain not on board with current version of Obama's plan.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/04/mccain-opposes-syria-strike-resolution/

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
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