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TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #91 
sbmom, one should not mix Iran with China or Russia.
Iran under the mullahs are a colony of England, as it is that country that brought them to power.
of course they get support from Russia and China as do all countries in the middle east.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Even Robert Gibbs, who is the president of the Obama Fanboy club, said that the sequencing of events this week made Kerry, at a minimum, look foolish, and the whole thing confused overall.



mikec - I watched the later part of the Meet the Press round table very late on Sunday and will agree somewhat to your earlier post that Gibbs was a bit more critical than I assumed earlier, when he went on to say the events of this weekend may have unwound in an order which could be called out as being short of ideal.  It's clear he was more critical than he was in his opening comments on the show, the ones I saw and based my earlier post on, but he still did not go as far as to use foolish and/or confused as characterizations.  In any event, I'm sorry...I should have watched the full program before I commented to you this morning.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #93 
Is this a crisis of Obamas making that he is now using to affect the CR and debt ceiling debate and outcome more than he wants to deal with Syria secondary to MB connections and allies abandoning him.
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Susan
woody

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Reply with quote  #94 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
sbmom, one should not mix Iran with China or Russia.
Iran under the mullahs are a colony of England, as it is that country that brought them to power.
of course they get support from Russia and China as do all countries in the middle east.


Russians and British have tried to occupy Iran and control oil interest since WWI. After WWII Russia, and British started losing control of power. England has no control of Iran. Britain's oil production investments were confiscated and Nationalized in 1951, the Soviets and British were sent packing. Where did you learn your history of the region?

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Jane you ignorant slut. Keep your booger hook of the bang switch, you stupid Socialist. 

Beer me Hippie. I feel more like I do now, than when I first got here.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #95 
woody if you ever come to Fullerton's softball games i will explain to you where i got my info.
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #96 
read this AM in the paper that more than 4,000 people have been killed in Iraq since April.
so do you think that we becoming involved in Syria will diminish killing.
how come it didn't happen in Iraq.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #97 
Whoa! Leftist Washington Post calls for Congressional vote of "no confidence" in this president, and doesn't stop there.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/09/01/a-vote-of-no-confidence-is-in-order/
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #98 

Give Obama credit again.  He's going after McCain and Graham to try to get support in Congress to back him.  He picked the two Republicans that have proved the least able to act in the best interests of this country at this time.


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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #99 
McCain and Graham are calling for more involvement in Syria than Obama "claims" to want. The AUMF that WH sent to Congress is so broad it gives Obama leeway to atta k Iran or anyone else he can link to possible use of CW.
That Obama is teaming up with McCain and Graham is truly the theater of the absurd.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #100 
Yes but now without justifying his position, dewey is on board with invading another country for no good reason.  whatever obomber wants to do is ok with him.  after hearing the incessant whining over the years from the leftists on this forum especially dewey, they now want war
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"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #101 
America should never attack, unless attacked.....
mikec

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Reply with quote  #102 
I heard McCain make the first argument that made any sense relative to intervention - Syria's chemical weapons may end up in the hands of terrorists if we are not engaged.  Those weapons will then make their way here.

I heard Graham say something historically silly - we will demand that the opposition promise to turn over their WMD to the US as a condition of our support.  Does he really believe that they will do that, and follow through?
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #103 
During WW2 Germany invaded Norway and overran the country.  In Steinbeck's novel "The Moon is Down" a Norwegian, surveying the scene notes "The fly has conquered the flypaper".  It appears that we have accumulated much flypaper in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We must be careful that, in our zeal toward preemptive strikes, that we do not accumulate even more flypaper.  As for our War on Terrorism, it is not a war fought on battlefields between armies, but rather is a hunter chasing a rabid rabbit who bit a rabid fox who has since given birth to more rabid foxes who harass the hunter at every turn and in many forests.  It takes consummate wisdom to deal with both rabbit and fox in our current world.      Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #104 
Why is it that when a Democrat is in office, there's no question that there are WMDs but there were so many doubters with regard to Iraq WMDs?  Is it possible that while the UN fiddle-farted around with Iraq for over a year with their 19 resolutions, they were sending those WMDs to Syria and other countries?
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #105 
Pabar - That certainly would have been a good excuse for the actions of the Republican administration.  Republicans blame Democrats, and Democrats blame Republicans, and our "capitalistic imperialistic" nation sinks lower and lower as a nation state. "And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" - WW1 song.    Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
mikec

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Reply with quote  #106 
Boehner just announced that he is supporting the war resolution.  I guess that probably seals it.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #107 
I am flat out sick of war and anything that glamorizes it.  It is man at his worst dotted with noble deeds, certainly no football game.  Still, it is mankind at his worst.  Saber rattling, flag waving, and political nationalistic fervor give a false meaning to "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori".  Where some see glory, I see torn young bodies and a terrible price for nationalistic vanity. My militaristic foreign policy is akin to Bluedog's.  If someone punches me, then it is my right and perhaps even my duty to punch back.  If all wars are defensive, how does one defend invasion of a nation state?     Frank

PS - I served my country with honor in the military, but then everyone should. Policy makers are another matter.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #108 
Boehner is terrible.  He has no backbone and is an embarrassment.  There has been no clear-cut case that we need to intervene.  Yes, we don't want weapons falling into the hands of Al-Qaeda, but if we attack, isn't there a greater chance that will happen?

Speaking of which, are any of our liberal friends in this forum in agreement with Charlie Rangel that the whole red line fiasco is embarrassing?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/melanie-hunter/rangel-i-love-obama-red-line-syria-embarassing

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #109 
I remember when, during the era when teachers could paddle students, I stupidly said in front of an entire class that if a particular student (good kid without too many IQ points) didn't have his homework, I'd have to paddle him. He didn't, and I, to my forever shame, did.  He's the only student I ever paddled, but that was one too many.  My mistake was drawing a "red line".  After that line is drawn, nothing but bad stuff can ensue unless the person, or state addressed, collapses, but that's unlikely because you didn't really mean it in the first place, and anticipated a different response in the second place because you were in a power position. I was stupid in offering an ultimatum that contained an outcome that I could not abide but had to follow through with.  I do hope that our current administration has not done the same in Syria.
Frank  

PS - My stupidity resulted in an angry student, a hurting posterior, a destroyed teacher-student relationship, and a realization of intense shame on my part.  Resolutions about Syria would have much higher costs (see American deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam and Korea).

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #110 

This is a long thread, so to save me some reading...

Has the discussion in this thread gone to the reason we are interested in stabilizing the Syrian situation?

Civil unrest leads to tragic civilian deaths around the world. Why are we interceding here? Because of chemical weapons use?

No.


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #111 
I think most of us don't understand there to be any compelling national security interests at stake, and believe that this is all a response to the POTUS making threats he wasn't prepared to keep.

Some of the POTUS' defenders may be able to answer the question you asked, but I can not.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #112 
Bill - I disagree and will say the drive for increased intervention in Syria is a result of the use of chemical weapons.  Granted, it's harder to make this case since the recent supply of weapons to the rebels will allow many to easily say these two interventions are for exactly the same reasons.

International law says the use of WMD's will not be tolerated.  Does this mean use against people in your own nation or just other nations?  I think the upcoming debate is going to try and provide an answer.

I'd like to hear your answer as to why?  I imagine most will say our concern for Israel, Jordan, Turkey, etc., motivates us to try and stabilize, as you say, the entire region.  Is that a worthwhile reason?  I hear the fourth largest city in Jordan is a refuge campl
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #113 
The UN passed 19 resolutions demanding that Saddam Hussein come clean about his weapons programs.  He thumbed his nose at every one of those resolutions.  He had also used chemical weapons against Kurds and had previously invaded Kuwait.  He had clearly shown himself to be a much bigger threat to the region and the world than what Syria is showing now.  Bush then, with support from Congress and the international community, decided that enough was enough.

Given the almost universal condemnation from the left on our intervention in Iraq, why is Syria somehow different?

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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #114 
If I understand correctly, we're not sending troops and we're going to try and destroy the delivery systems of these chemical weapons.  I thing that's an important distinction from Iraq.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #115 
The most important distinction, in my opinion, is the existence of a threat to our national interests.  In the case of Iraq, it was pretty clear.  Not so in the case of Syria.  If it requires congressional approval, the legal basis is no different.  We may not be sending troops but destroying the delivery systems will likely cause civilian casualties.
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Will I Wynn is a poster who used to go by the name of Dewey.  He used to criticize people who did that.
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #116 

Nothing I've seen has convinced me that it was definitely Assad, and not the rebels, that did this.  I'm sorry, but Biden's, Kerry's, and Carney's words aren't enough for me.  Certainly not enough to, at least indirectly, help the group that killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #117 

Like I said before, I don't have the pay-grade to view and understand the classified material my President and representatives have available to make their decisions.  I trust the decision of those I elected to make an appropriate call.  If they think we have an opportunity to destroy some of these chemical weapon delivery systems, or a need to help protect some of our allies from further harm, then I'll defer to them. 

While nobody said one word here at UCS when Bush went into Iraq, I did say in my private circles that Saddam was stuck in a box and these weapons inspectors could look for years and years thus delaying any danger to our national interests.  The fact he harassed our inspections shouldn't have caused us to expedite such a huge next step. 

keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #118 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhblue

Nothing I've seen has convinced me that it was definitely Assad, and not the rebels, that did this.  I'm sorry, but Biden's, Kerry's, and Carney's words aren't enough for me.  Certainly not enough to, at least indirectly, help the group that killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11.


I agree 100%.  When we drop the first bomb on Syria, that in itself is an act of war.  I like how the spineless left differentiate.  An act of war is WAR.  splitting hairs is how the libtards justify their war
#hypocrites

__________________
"Getting your motor revved about taking our guns is going to be what undoes your efforts."

"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #119 
Does any of you know if we attack Syria which tribe or political group will we be helping.?????
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #120 
I will predict if the resolution does not pass, Obama will not take the action.  Instead, pressure will continue to be applied in hopes of changing enough opinions.
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