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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #31 

Since I'm inamood...

Regarding scholarships doled out on the dollar versus by percentage, most cases of which I am familiar dealt with percent of full. However, for the reason delineated by some previous, can confirm that coaches can and will offer exact sum rather than a percentage.

As earlier stated, this allows a coach to maintain a figure that is sure to shrink over time if not adjusted to rising costs of tuition, basis for room/board, book prices, etc. Could save a coach substantial monies that might be offered to another athlete(s) by year four of such a plan.

Dollars can be a donut in future years. That hole gets bigger.


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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
12 hour full


Is that the Nyquil scholarship? Gone overnight after coach slept on it?

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith


I read a lot.



Assume you are not familiar with off campus-full. I know the practice exists elsewhere as I describe, not heard an actual assignation of term.

In the case I am most familiar, athletic department owned 'villas' that housed many of the student-athletes. Believe they had to rent to the general student population to avoid NCAA compliance issues. However, the bottom line was athletes had VERY cheap room and board available through this practice. Kids paid for school tuition, book, lodging, eats, etc. and often had money left over from less than a full scholarship.

Hence the term. All costs 100% covered, though the team only dinged less than 100%.
Oh...OK... Yes,  most places, off-campus is cheaper than on.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith

Since I'm inamood...

Regarding scholarships doled out on the dollar versus by percentage, most cases of which I am familiar dealt with percent of full. However, for the reason delineated by some previous, can confirm that coaches can and will offer exact sum rather than a percentage.

As earlier stated, this allows a coach to maintain a figure that is sure to shrink over time if not adjusted to rising costs of tuition, basis for room/board, book prices, etc. Could save a coach substantial monies that might be offered to another athlete(s) by year four of such a plan.

Dollars can be a donut in future years. That hole gets bigger.

Exactly. A flat number seems like an admission that we are going to pay the athlete less each year
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:
Exactly. A flat number seems like an admission that we are going to pay the athlete less each year


Perhaps. Though a % could be adjusted, if not 'guaranteed' by rule or program's commitment. And it is just a non-COLA offer. Maybe prices could go down!

Coach not always to blame. Especially the fledglings. AD most often passes down ceiling amount on dollars. That can include total to spend, which is different than scholarships (or percentage thereof) that can be offered to incoming athletes.

Example: Suzie is offered 50%. She is from out-of-state attending a public institution. Her total dollars spent by the athletic department could be more than that spent on Rachel who is in-state receiving 75%. NCAA is only concerned with the total cost to student being met.*

Next year, Suzie has done the okie-doke with paperwork and is declared a resident. Reduces money tithed by the athletic department to its schools admissions process.

Which is also why someone might have believed it true that out-of-state anywhere could be cheaper than in-state California.

Factors:

1) Have known schools to offer 'geo-diversity' money to athletes. Must throw some bones to the student body as a whole to make that work, but can garner a California athlete.

2) As has been mentioned, it can be ridiculously less expensive to live off-campus in a rural college setting as opposed to many urban areas of California. Mom & Dad can do the numbers and see large savings at Southeastern Northwest State with a 50% scholarship versus same offer in California. (This assumes they are not the prototypical SoCal softball parent that would travel to every game.)

3) There are programs like WUE-Western Undergraduate Exchange that might sweeten the pot enough to have a distant program be less costly than a home state school.

4) Live with family. Had a player that lived in grandma's house. Huge savings. Hugs too!

5) But it all goes out the window if parents want to see their kid play. Out the airplane window. Hotel window. Rental car window. Ugh. As before, ask me how I know and my kid didn't even leave the state.

Edited to correct: * added "being met" to add clarity & in #2, changed from more to less. Oops!


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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith

Example: Suzie is offered 50%. She is from out-of-state attending a public institution. Her total dollars spent by the athletic department could be more than that spent on Rachel who is in-state receiving 75%. NCAA is only concerned with the total cost to student.

I thought NCAA was only concerned with 12 scholarships or less being paid out

3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith



Perhaps. Though a % could be adjusted, if not 'guaranteed' by rule or program's commitment. And it is just a non-COLA offer. Maybe prices could go down!

I should have specified... a flat DOLLAR amount, in a four-year contract

3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith



2) As has been mentioned, it can be ridiculously more expensive to live off-campus in a rural college setting as opposed to many urban areas of California.

 

MORE?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith


5) But it all goes out the window if parents want to see their kid play. Out the airplane window. Hotel window. Rental car window. Ugh. As before, ask me how I know and my kid didn't even leave the state.

 

That.... is an a**-kicker. For sure
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith


Example: Suzie is offered 50%. She is from out-of-state attending a public institution. Her total dollars spent by the athletic department could be more than that spent on Rachel who is in-state receiving 75%. NCAA is only concerned with the total cost to student.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I thought NCAA was only concerned with 12 scholarships or less being paid out

That was my understanding as well. The total dollar amount does not matter. In state and out of state count the same. 12=12. A scholly is a scholly.

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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
...it can be ridiculously more expensive to live off-campus in a rural college setting...


Oops! I did intend to say LESS expensive.

Quote:
I thought NCAA was only concerned with 12 scholarships or less being paid out


And I guess my attempt to be helpful hit another snag. Yes, the NCAA only counts to twelve in softball, eight in womens' tennis, etc. But they ask for a total cost to the student. That cost must be met despite in/out state status, major, dorm cost, dining hall, etc. fluctuations. And that is how I should have concluded that statement. The NCAA is only concerned with the total cost to the student being met. Will add to the original post and make note.

Thus, athletic department can be 'charged' wildly differing total costs from one student-athlete to the next. AD cares about the total cost, NCAA that the student's cost is totally met.

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34sDad

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Reply with quote  #42 
DD's scholarship was switched from a percentage to flat dollar amount.  She's a 2015 and the school said all kids signing after that year were for fixed dollar amounts and they were doing away with percentages.  They said it was due to the Full Cost of Tuition rules and the new multi-year scholarships.  I thought that was a sneaky way to skirt the extra Full Cost of Tuition money kids should get and it's a huge savings for them because the fixed amount doesn't go up every year with tuition and other increases.  I don't know how many other schools switched, but I'd assume this isn't the only one.  
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34sDad
DD's scholarship was switched from a percentage to flat dollar amount.  She's a 2015 and the school said all kids signing after that year were for fixed dollar amounts and they were doing away with percentages.  They said it was due to the Full Cost of Tuition rules and the new multi-year scholarships.  I thought that was a sneaky way to skirt the extra Full Cost of Tuition money kids should get and it's a huge savings for them because the fixed amount doesn't go up every year with tuition and other increases.  I don't know how many other schools switched, but I'd assume this isn't the only one.  


Did she begin Fall 2015? Is her school in Power 5? 
34sDad

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Did she begin Fall 2015? Is her school in Power 5? 


Yes and yes
Amish_TB

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Reply with quote  #45 
Fixed Dollar Example:

Annual Tuition Cost Year 1:  15,000
Expected Tuition Growth Rate per year:  7%

Year 2 Cost:  16,050
Year 3 Cost:  17,173.50
Year 4 Cost:  18,375.65

Reduction in Scholarship "Cost" to the softball program for that year 4 would be 1-(15,000/18375.65) = 18.5% 

Savings over a 4 year to the program:  10%

It appears to me that a fully funded softball program with 12 scholarships would be able to obtain over a 4 year cycle 13 scholarships paid out in "fixed dollars".

Fixed dollars are a sales tactic.
Softball98mom

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Slightly off topic but the lowest amount of any D1 Baseball Scholarships is 25%. Coaches just can't hand out 5 or 10% anymore to get a bunch of kids on the team. And the only sports where all the players are on 'full rides' are Football, Mens/Womens Basketball & Womens Volleyball. 


And Gymnastics...
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #47 
Well that raised some interesting points. First off, any Athletic money would be guaranteed. Obviously using a percentage would be the only way to truly measure her award amount, especially moving into her 2nd, 3rd & 4th year. ie: the actual dollar award amount would rise with any increases year to year to maintain the percentage.

Using a fixed dollar amount, unless otherwise stated, would manipulate the percentage of the Athletic Award amount downward year to year, as you stated. 

Not sure I understand what your talking about in relation to '...Full Cost of Tuition money kids should get.' Are you possibly talking about the Cost of Attendance figure by chance? That figure is set by each school independently and varies widely. It is my understanding ALL students on any amount of Athletic Scholarship receive this. 

In short, let's say your DD Athletic award was 50% of full cost of attendance. That 50% dollar equivalent would be worth more each new year she was part of program. However, if the School said your DD Athletic award was $25,000 each year she was part of program, then cost of attendance to the family gets a little more expensive each year 

I'd take a look at her initial NLI to see what the percentage was. Personally I have know idea if a program can switch from a % to a fixed dollar amount when renewal time comes around. On the surface this looks problematic because I see no way a fixed dollar amount will ever equal the original percentage you say you had. 

Please anybody chime in if I got any of this wrong.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amish_TB
Fixed Dollar Example:

Annual Tuition Cost Year 1:  15,000
Expected Tuition Growth Rate per year:  7%

Year 2 Cost:  16,050
Year 3 Cost:  17,173.50
Year 4 Cost:  18,375.65

Reduction in Scholarship "Cost" to the softball program for that year 4 would be 1-(15,000/18375.65) = 18.5% 

Savings over a 4 year to the program:  10%

It appears to me that a fully funded softball program with 12 scholarships would be able to obtain over a 4 year cycle 13 scholarships paid out in "fixed dollars".

Fixed dollars are a sales tactic.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but a great way to save the program money each ensuing year. My big question would be can a player sign her Initial NLI stating a percentage, then on renewal have that change to a fixed dollar amount? 
RELAX

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amish_TB
Fixed Dollar Example:

Annual Tuition Cost Year 1:  15,000
Expected Tuition Growth Rate per year:  7%

Year 2 Cost:  16,050
Year 3 Cost:  17,173.50
Year 4 Cost:  18,375.65

Reduction in Scholarship "Cost" to the softball program for that year 4 would be 1-(15,000/18375.65) = 18.5% 

Savings over a 4 year to the program:  10%

It appears to me that a fully funded softball program with 12 scholarships would be able to obtain over a 4 year cycle 13 scholarships paid out in "fixed dollars".

Fixed dollars are a sales tactic.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but a great way to save the program money each ensuing year. My big question would be can a player sign her Initial NLI stating a percentage, then on renewal have that change to a fixed dollar amount? 


I would imagine it could change as long as the new fixed dollar amount was at least equal to what the percentage was in year 1. 
Amish_TB

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Reply with quote  #50 
For most NLI's they are only good for 1 year at a time.  If it is good for 4 years, it would stand to reason the university could not change to a fixed dollar from a percentage without authorization from the player.
34sDad

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Reply with quote  #51 
@outofzone

NLI was signed Nov 2014 for a percentage.  When she got on campus during freshman orientation one of the documents they had her sign changed her scholarship from the percentage to a guaranteed fixed amount for four years.  Of course she had no idea what it was and just signed it as she was told.  

Yes, sorry I was talking about the Cost of Attendance.  By going to a fixed amount instead of percentage the school avoided giving this out.  Instead of being added to the scholarship, it's now included in the fixed amount.  So while technically she's still getting it, they offset it by effectively reducing her scholarship.  

In the end she's being well taken care of so I can't complain too much.  It was just frustrating to learn all the ways the compliance offices were manipulating the rules.  






CAAggieFan

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Reply with quote  #52 
My DD was offered a full ride.  Her NLI showed at dollar amount, so I looked up the university cost at it was the same amount.  

Each year her documents showed a different amount but always added to the university cost. 

Only paid an extra $300 for a better dorm her freshman year which coaches had advised us to do.  After her first year, I also noticed that athletic money was being offset by academic money, but always added up to the cost of attendance.

If you are on the west coast, I highly recommend that you look at the Western Student Exchange program between states and university.  My non-softball playing daughter and my playing DD both attended out of state university but only had to pay in-state tuition.


outofzone

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34sDad
@outofzone

NLI was signed Nov 2014 for a percentage.  When she got on campus during freshman orientation one of the documents they had her sign changed her scholarship from the percentage to a guaranteed fixed amount for four years.  Of course she had no idea what it was and just signed it as she was told.  

Yes, sorry I was talking about the Cost of Attendance.  By going to a fixed amount instead of percentage the school avoided giving this out.  Instead of being added to the scholarship, it's now included in the fixed amount.  So while technically she's still getting it, they offset it by effectively reducing her scholarship.  
In the end she's being well taken care of so I can't complain too much.  It was just frustrating to learn all the ways the compliance offices were manipulating the rules.  


So she entered school Fall 2015 when the new gauranteed scholarship rules went into effect. Her deal was written as a percentage on the NLI but changed when she arrived on campus. This still sounds problematic. All the other rhetoric from Compliance is double talk as long as your deal is intact...correct me if I'm wrong but, does the fixed dollar amount equal the percentage amount, year to year, she signed on her NLI? Because the NLI is a binding contract with the Univ. You mentioned she signed off on the change...sounds like little slight of hand by Compliance. Unfortunate for sure. 

I'd still have some questions but you said all is good so good for you & your DD. Best of luck this season to.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amish_TB
Fixed Dollar Example:

Annual Tuition Cost Year 1:  15,000
Expected Tuition Growth Rate per year:  7%

Year 2 Cost:  16,050
Year 3 Cost:  17,173.50
Year 4 Cost:  18,375.65

Reduction in Scholarship "Cost" to the softball program for that year 4 would be 1-(15,000/18375.65) = 18.5% 

Savings over a 4 year to the program:  10%

It appears to me that a fully funded softball program with 12 scholarships would be able to obtain over a 4 year cycle 13 scholarships paid out in "fixed dollars".

Fixed dollars are a sales tactic.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but a great way to save the program money each ensuing year. My big question would be can a player sign her Initial NLI stating a percentage, then on renewal have that change to a fixed dollar amount? 
renewal?
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
renewal?


Meaning, when the player goes to "re-up", for the next season. Poor word choice I guess. 

I still don't understand how a program can get away with going from a percentage to a fixed dollar amount. To work, the "fixed" amount would have to be "flexible".
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #56 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but a lot of programs have limits on the number of hours players can take in season and out of season.  That also is a factor in cost and especially if a student athlete has to take more classes per semester after their freshman year due to limitations some schools have on freshmen.  
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