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Prowler

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos
Looking at records from NCAA entrants, Alabama was one of three SEC teams to play a road games out of conference against a top 25 team (3 games at UL) along with Mississippi State (1 at OK) and Arkansas (1 at Tulsa). After this years NCAA selections, I'm wondering if the SEC will play any OOC road games against top competition ever again.


I believe upon closer inspection you'll see a lot of good neutral-site games in tournaments.

People build up the Mary Nutter as a mecca and then don't want to count the games there (or is that only if you're in the SEC or Pac?).

Auburn vs. Oklahoma was a pretty good SOS game, I think, even if it was played on the moon.

Oh, and Alabama has a home-and-home with Washington -- two in Alabama this year, two in Seattle next year I think.

I seriously don't see the SEC as scared to play top teams. They do it every week.
CajunAmos

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
I believe upon closer inspection you'll see a lot of good neutral-site games in tournaments. People build up the Mary Nutter as a mecca and then don't want to count the games there (or is that only if you're in the SEC or Pac?). Auburn vs. Oklahoma was a pretty good SOS game, I think, even if it was played on the moon. Oh, and Alabama has a home-and-home with Washington -- two in Alabama this year, two in Seattle next year I think. I seriously don't see the SEC as scared to play top teams. They do it every week.


I agree. The SEC had 24 top 25 neutral site games and finished 11-13. They were 1-4 on the road. Never claimed they were scared to play anyone. I'm hoping Florida is still coming to Lafayette next year.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestfp
Illinois finished at #27. So what you are saying is that the Gophers should have lost that final game to Illinois and then hoped IL beat Ohio State for the Big 10 tournament championship. That way IL probably climbs up two spots back into the Top 25, and now our two earlier wins against IL would be top 25 wins, raising our total to the magic number of 4. Well that makes sense.
Perverse... but intriguing
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos
Looking at records from NCAA entrants, Alabama was one of three SEC teams to play a road games out of conference against a top 25 team (3 games at UL) along with Mississippi State (1 at OK) and Arkansas (1 at Tulsa). After this years NCAA selections, I'm wondering if the SEC will play any OOC road games against top competition ever again.
Get thee to the Nutter second week, best event in the game short of OKC. You do well there, and your skids are greased
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #35 
I gave you what all the conferences do against 26 or worse in the RPI... if that doesn't prove the quality of the conference (and the Pac would be similar), I don't know what will
Bama_CF

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


I agree. The SEC had 24 top 25 neutral site games and finished 11-13. They were 1-4 on the road. Never claimed they were scared to play anyone. I'm hoping Florida is still coming to Lafayette next year.



Check out any conference (other than SEC and Pac-12 record vs top 25 at neutral sites, home, road, doesn't matter). It will be way way way more losses. A record for an entire conference of 11-13 vs top 25 teams at a neutral is extraordinarily good.

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Bama_CF

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestfp
Illinois finished at #27. So what you are saying is that the Gophers should have lost that final game to Illinois and then hoped IL beat Ohio State for the Big 10 tournament championship. That way IL probably climbs up two spots back into the Top 25, and now our two earlier wins against IL would be top 25 wins, raising our total to the magic number of 4. Well that makes sense.



I don't know, but the absolute use of an arbitrary number shows the lack of sophistication of the committee. Quality-wise, 2 wins over Illinois is much closer to 2 wins over South Carolina than it is to 2 wins over Kennesaw St.

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #38 
Taking the early reveals out of the mix, the only thing that I cannot find a grain of sound rationale for--after scouring the selection RPI--is Kentucky at 14 and Bama at 16, instead of vice versa.

CajunAmos

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama_CF



Check out any conference (other than SEC and Pac-12 record vs top 25 at neutral sites, home, road, doesn't matter). It will be way way way more losses. A record for an entire conference of 11-13 vs top 25 teams at a neutral is extraordinarily good.


Didn't say it wouldn't be. I was just considering that maybe 75% of the top 25 games played by the SEC are in conference games which no one but the PAC will come close to matching unless there is an incentive to play them OOC. I think a number of those teams won't play on the road and some won't play in a neutral situation which we've also experienced in the past. Our away schedule was light this year and I'm hoping health allows us to do more traveling in future years.

I salute Alabama and Florida for agreeing to play the Cajuns in a home/home situation and Baylor who does a midweek double header yearly. We played TA&M on the road this year, but they don't seem to have any interest in returning the date in Lafayette. Oregon and Michigan have also visited Lafayette, but as I said earlier it takes two to tango.
HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #40 
<< Illinois finished at #27. So what you are saying is that the Gophers should have lost that final game to Illinois and then hoped IL beat Ohio State for the Big 10 tournament championship. That way IL probably climbs up two spots back into the Top 25, and now our two earlier wins against IL would be top 25 wins, raising our total to the magic number of 4. Well that makes sense. >> (midwestfp)

<<Perverse... but intriguing >> (3leftturns)

The scenario above, pointed out by midwestfp, shows how the numbers game (any formula) is always going to be far from perfect. If they chose to look at top 30 (rather than top 25) it would have spitted out a different result for Minnesota. And I think we can all pretty much agree that no one REALLY knows if the #25 rated team is any better than the #27 rated team. 

There are certainly times when the eye test needs to be given a bit more weight - than formula driven numbers.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #41 

Well, it is 25, and not 30.

But that is a line drawn by the NCAA for in-season RPI bonuses and OBVIOUSLY weighs hugely on selection day

HenryLouisAaron

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Reply with quote  #42 
<< I don't know, but the absolute use of an arbitrary number shows the lack of sophistication of the committee. Quality-wise, 2 wins over Illinois is much closer to 2 wins over South Carolina than it is to 2 wins over Kennesaw St. >> (Bama CF)

Well said, Bama. Your post piggy backs on mine nicely.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama_CF



I don't know, but the absolute use of an arbitrary number shows the lack of sophistication of the committee. Quality-wise, 2 wins over Illinois is much closer to 2 wins over South Carolina than it is to 2 wins over Kennesaw St.
NFW

Illinois would get smoked by South Carolina. I saw them play live and they got ginsu-ed 11-0
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
NFW

Illinois would get smoked by South Carolina. I saw them play live and they got ginsu-ed 11-0


And Nebraska Illinois St, UCSB and Maryland should get killed by Missouri too. Until they actually played.

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #45 
LOL... you didn't say Missouri... now that is a bridge too far!!!
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
LOL... you didn't say Missouri... now that is a bridge too far!!!


Why?

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #47 
I guess I should have put a smiley face.

But, yes, because Missouri is 32 team who was a whisker over .500
SkullyMaroo

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Reply with quote  #48 
I know this overly sunmaries the date but still, let's look at this another way... below I've listed the top 12 leagues (in order) and the percentage of teams that made the tournament.

1. SEC - 100%
2. PAC 12 - 88.89%
3. Big 12 - 57.14%
4. A-SUN - 12.5%
5. ACC - 27.27%
6. MWC - 22.22%
7. Sun Belt - 20%
8. Big Ten - 35.72%
9. AAC - 28.57%
10. BWC - 12.5%
11. Colonial - 12.5%
12. CUSA - 16.67%

So, the Atlantic Sun is the 4th best conference but only one team was selected for the tournament, and somehow the #8 and #9 leagues got more teams in percentage wise than the number 4, 5, 6 and 7 leagues.

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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullyMaroo
I know this overly sunmaries the date but still, let's look at this another way... below I've listed the top 12 leagues (in order) and the percentage of teams that made the tournament. 1. SEC - 100% 2. PAC 12 - 88.89% 3. Big 12 - 57.14% 4. A-SUN - 12.5% 5. ACC - 27.27% 6. MWC - 22.22% 7. Sun Belt - 20% 8. Big Ten - 35.72% 9. AAC - 28.57% 10. BWC - 12.5% 11. Colonial - 12.5% 12. CUSA - 16.67% So, the Atlantic Sun is the 4th best conference but only one team was selected for the tournament, and somehow the #8 and #9 leagues got more teams in percentage wise than the number 4, 5, 6 and 7 leagues.
Well, if you have one very good team (Minn), a good team (Mich) and three decent teams (Wisc, Ohio State and Ill) and seven fetid outhouse teams, that overall rating of the conference will be sunk badly
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #50 
The nitty gritty is usually out by now, what the heck?  Are they hiding it?
Fpitch9

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos
Looking at records from NCAA entrants, Alabama was one of three SEC teams to play a road games out of conference against a top 25 team (3 games at UL) along with Mississippi State (1 at OK) and Arkansas (1 at Tulsa). After this years NCAA selections, I'm wondering if the SEC will play any OOC road games against top competition ever again.


Florida plays at FSU every year. They also play at South Florida in the opening weekend, though I guess it is technically treated as neutral since it is not on the Bulls home field. Bulls had a down year but are usually ranked. Same for UCF.

Florida played 11(10-1)non conference games against teams that ended up in the tournament. 5 of those were at home. Now, a majority are AQ's, but it's still a very good job of scheduling year in and out, as most of those teams are still top 100 rpi teams.
CajunAmos

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Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fpitch9
Florida plays at FSU every year. They also play at South Florida in the opening weekend, though I guess it is technically treated as neutral since it is not on the Bulls home field. Bulls had a down year but are usually ranked. Same for UCF. Florida played 11(10-1)non conference games against teams that ended up in the tournament. 5 of those were at home. Now, a majority are AQ's, but it's still a very good job of scheduling year in and out, as most of those teams are still top 100 rpi teams.


Again, not saying they duck anyone, or that they aren't what I think is the best team in the country. I also appreciate their willingness to play anyone with their expectation to play in Lafayette next year as a followup to our recent visit. My worry is that if the SEC/PAC play each other in neutral tournaments and they play their conference schedules where to the others develop RPI to compete for a national seed? I've heard folks comment about rigging the RPI system, and non-P3 teams (SEC,PAC,B12) with one or two exceptions would struggle to get to the top 16. I thought Ole Miss had a great year, but one OOC T25 team is the same thing non-P3 teams are getting hammered about by the committee.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #53 

I compiled the records of the SEC teams Nos. 2-13 against the RPI 26 and worse. I'm keeping out Florida, just like I will with Minnesota, JMU and ULL in their conferences.

RPI 26-295 opponents strain out most of the conference competition that everyone talks about pumping up the SEC's records
Auburn: 30-1
Texas A&M: 28-4
Tennessee: 28-3
Alabama: 34-3
LSU: 32-3
Kentucky: 28-4
Ole Miss: 29-4
South Carolina: 24-6
Georgia: 30-4
Arkansas: 27-6
Miss. State: 28-4
Mizzou: 21-8
339-50 (.871)

Now, JMU's conference's 2-4 teams’ record (not including themselves) against teams worse that 25 in the RPI
Hofstra: 24-17
Charleston: 31-15
UNCW: 31-13-1
86-45-1, .655

Minnesota
Michigan 39-6
Illinois 36-10
Ohio State 33-8
108-24, .818

ULL
Texas State 38-8
Georgia State 34-16
South Alabama 34-12
106-36, .746

Only the Big Ten’s top 3 even get within a zip code of the entirety of the SEC minus Florida

Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot


So I've kind of decided to not care about the seeding anymore.  It is what it is.  Buckle up and let's have fun.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT..... this is an asinine argument when the fact is the Tuscaloosa regional has only one team busing in.


Bama has eight Top-25 RPI wins, compared to two for Minny. Just saying that only having one team able to bus in could have been a factor, at least in not having both Bama and Minny host.
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


Bama has eight Top-25 RPI wins, compared to two for Minny. Just saying that only having one team able to bus in could have been a factor, at least in not having both Bama and Minny host.


Maybe, but I'm not speaking ot the RPI wins.  I'm just saying having only one busable team shouldn't (and I doubt is) be a factor.
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunAmos


Again, not saying they duck anyone, or that they aren't what I think is the best team in the country. I also appreciate their willingness to play anyone with their expectation to play in Lafayette next year as a followup to our recent visit. My worry is that if the SEC/PAC play each other in neutral tournaments and they play their conference schedules where to the others develop RPI to compete for a national seed? I've heard folks comment about rigging the RPI system, and non-P3 teams (SEC,PAC,B12) with one or two exceptions would struggle to get to the top 16. I thought Ole Miss had a great year, but one OOC T25 team is the same thing non-P3 teams are getting hammered about by the committee.


A team's body of work is its body of work.

If Ole Miss had tanked in the SEC (it didn't make the league tournament three years in a row), that OOC game wouldn't matter.

But let's not act like Ole Miss didn't play or beat anybody -- 7 of 8 against Alabama/LSU, beat Florida (1 of 4), beat Auburn (1 of 3), beat Kentucky (2 of 3), etc.

Are we supposed to think that equates the in-conference schedule of a Louisiana, a Minnesota or JMU? Like those games don't count and we're just going to pretend conference games are exhibitions and only non-conference counts -- and furthermore, some want to make it about only non-conference road games (like neutral-site games don't count). And it's not like the three mentioned above actually went out of their way to play powerhouses OOC on the road either.

I agree that Minnesota (and thus Alabama and Florida also) got hosed. But a team in a weak conference that wants to host has to use its out-of-conference weekends (and mid-weeks) when possible to step up. Ole Miss was playing the equivalent of a super regional week afer week after week in the SEC (by RPI no one is lower than a 2 seed, right?) while mid-March through early-May for some of these good teams in weak conferences is like fall ball.

You want to make a name for yourself as a mid-major, you do what Bobby Bowden did at Florida State -- at one time, that program was Homecoming U -- a doormat. But when he got it going, he scheduled the best teams possible and didn't insist on home-and-homes (that came later) every time.

Look at this stretch in 1981:

At Nebraska
At Ohio State
At Notre Dame
At Pitt (No. 3 at the time)
At LSU

Those were five games in a row, all on the road. He also played ranked Miami and Southern Miss at home, and at Florida

That is how you gain respect -- you go into their back yards or you schedule yourselves into the same tournaments as UCLA or Florida or Arizona or whoever and you beat them.

When that happens, you get those home regionals and supers. And you keep doing it, you up the stature of your program to the point that people will schedule you home-and-home because they know THEY get the RPI/SOS bump for doing so.

So I tip my cap to ULL for playing Alabama and Florida and Arizona (IIRC) in home-and-homes ... but I also cringe when I see that a week after hosting Alabama, Louisiana was at home playing Bradley and Bowling Green and Dartmouth, etc. What good does that do?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #57 
Now.. THAT is a post
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #58 
+1
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
But let's not act like Ole Miss didn't play or beat anybody --7 of 8 against Alabama/LSU, beat Florida (1 of 4), beat Auburn (1 of 3), beat Kentucky (2 of 3), etc.


Why not?.........

The one win against Florida game doesn't count........More interested in resting, than winning..........The other games were average wins - not overly impressive..........LSU and Alabama are middle-of-the-road conference teams.............Lost 2 of 3 to Auburn...........And, they lost all three conference series games to Florida..........

You're making that resume look impressive, when it's not...........


Opposedtohate

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Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog


Why not?.........

The one win against Florida game doesn't count........More interested in resting, than winning..........The other games were average wins - not overly impressive..........LSU and Alabama are middle-of-the-road conference teams.............Lost 2 of 3 to Auburn...........And, they lost all three conference series games to Florida..........

You're making that resume look impressive, when it's not...........




LOL seems like the only appropriate response.

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