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TheMom

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Reply with quote  #1 
I posed this random question in an unrelated thread and don't think what I was asking was fully understood so thought I would try again. We know fully funded D1 schools have 12 scholarships to give out. And we know than some of the 12 are often broken up and shared. What I am curious about is if the complete dollar amount of these 12 scholarships change based on how many in vs out of state athletes are on the team. An example would be two state schools in the same state but one has all in state athletes and the other has a large percentage of out of state. Obviously a coach at the school with a large number of out of state athlete would need more money to cover 12 full scholarships. So is the amount the coach gets at the school with the out of state athletes adjusted to compensate for this? Just curious.
sbparent

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My daughter had an offer from an out of state school of 70% and we were given the in state tuition rate.  Not sure if that is the norm or not.
3leftturns

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I am certain that some state schools demand that a certain percentage of kids be from in-state to TRY keeping in line with school policy (Is North Carolina 85 percent in-state?)

But, other than a few such outliers, coaches are told to use those 12 scholarships the best they know how in the P5

They do NOT have, say, $300K to spend on athlete schollies... They have 12 scholarships, whether it be 11.5 out of state and .5 in-state, or 7 out of state and 5 in-state...

scrybe

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I am certain that some state schools demand that a certain percentage of kids be from in-state to TRY keeping in line with school policy (Is North Carolina 85 percent in-state?)

But, other than a few such outliers, coaches are told to use those 12 scholarships the best they know how in the P5

They do NOT have, say, $300K to spend on athlete schollies... They have 12 scholarships, whether it be 11.5 out of state and .5 in-state, or 7 out of state and 5 in-state...



Makes sense.
3leftturns

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbparent
My daughter had an offer from an out of state school of 70% and we were given the in state tuition rate.  Not sure if that is the norm or not.
Things that make you go 'hmmmm' for $500, Alex
sbparent

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Things that make you go 'hmmmm' for $500, Alex


And that means what?
OldWiseOne

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Each school will do it differently and it all depends on the budget. Some schools will give X amount of dollars and the coach can spend it how they want. Other schools will push for/require a certain number of in-state kids to limit costs and other schools will let the coach bring in whoever they want and over budget in the scholarship area knowing that it will fluctuate each year depending on the number of in-state and out-of-state kids.
3leftturns

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OWO with the more articulate answer
3leftturns

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbparent


And that means what?
That... sounds odd.

Unless a parent moved in state for the requisite amount of time
34sDad

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Reply with quote  #10 
A couple of states do sometimes give out-of-state athletes in-state tuition.  Most don't.  To me it would count as a greater % of the scholarship, but apparently they're able to do it.   I wish they all did it!
3leftturns

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34sDad
A couple of states do sometimes give out-of-state athletes in-state tuition.
I have heard some neighbor-state situations... but not like a kid from Minnesota going to Arizona as in-state....

Dunno what the situation is above
outofzone

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EX: South Carolina will extend In-State tuition to a Virginia kid if they offer a course of study not available at a VA school that kid wants to attend. 
OldWiseOne

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Reply with quote  #13 
There are so many variations on in-state/out-of-state, out of state waivers, adjacent state and even the Western Undergraduate Exchange that unless you’re working in a state that has something its hard to fully understand.
TheMom

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Reply with quote  #14 
Ok, so I think I can gleen an answer based on replys by 3LT and oldwiseone, I know my question can be read differently based on perception and my awkward wording but sounds like the total dollar amount can be adjusted base on the make up of in vs out of state kids. I was really looking for the NCAA rules vs what each individual college might have to adhere to because of their budget constraints. Thanks!
Dusty

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMom
Ok, so I think I can gleen an answer based on replys by 3LT and oldwiseone, I know my question can be read differently based on perception and my awkward wording but sounds like the total dollar amount can be adjusted base on the make up of in vs out of state kids. I was really looking for the NCAA rules vs what each individual college might have to adhere to because of their budget constraints. Thanks!


Lol, it looks like some posters got a piece of your question but most struck out looking.  I think I've got the gist of your question and it is a good one so lets put it like this.  Forget athletics, scholarships and the like for the moment and think of it as the cost for any kid going to college as a freshman next year:

State U X, in-state tuition and mandatory fees- $10k
State U X, out of state tuition and mandatory fees- $35k

So are the 12 full scholarships a coach has to offer it's softball players in any way tied to the actual retail price of attending the state school or is it just 12 to use in full or in part any way the coach chooses?  I think it's 12 to use any way a coach chooses, in-state or out, but I'm not sure. 

My dd is going to an in-state school this fall and her money is coming from grants, not a partial or full athletic scholarship.  That would make sense if my thinking on this is correct not just for my dd but other in-state student athletes as well because the dozen scholarships have greater purchasing power with out of state athletes and a coach can save his/her grant money to get the most out of it for in-state athletes.


TruDat

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Reply with quote  #16 
Let me give you my somewhat intimate knowledge of this. You can by definition give 12 full "equivalent" scholarships. In a simple illustration, if a full ride out of state is $50,000, and in state is $25,000 and I gave 12 players (half of whom were out of state) scholarships, I would spend 6X$50K and 6X$25K or a total of $450,000. If I gave all out of state scholarships then the total would be $600,000. In the case I am aware of, there is a fixed dollar amount. If that amount were given to all in state players the total number would be more than 12. If there is a mix, then you could fall somewhere near or under the 12. A compliance department would have to monitor the "equivalent" scholarships to make sure you don't exceed 12 while handing out a bunch of partial scholarships. The reason I believe the strict dollar amount is probably the way most state schools do it, is because it is a way to budget dollars. If in my simplest scenario there could be a big difference in what 12 scholarships means in dollars, the budget people would not like it if the number could jump around so drastically. 
TheMom

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Reply with quote  #17 
Hmm, Dusty, I am not sure your scenario helps me. I realize any money outside the scholarship budget that a coach can use helps the program and allows the actual athletic scholarship money to spread further. What I am asking is how the NCAA dictates the total dollar amount for these 12 scholaships is calculated.

State U X, in-state tuition and mandatory fees- $10k, if EVERY athelete on the team is an in state athlete a fully funded program would have $120K to divy up, pretty straight forward.


State U X, out of state tuition and mandatory fees- $35k, if EVERY athlete on the team is an out of state athlete does the allowable budget become $420K which I think some answers are indicating would be the case (of course a school may not decide to fund that amount but would it be allowed per NCAA rules)

And of course realistically those roster scenarios are unlikely as most schools have a combination of in and out of state athletes. So then I am wondering how prorating the amount works when there is a mix. And to complicate it further when scholaships are split between athletes. And do prorated amounts include walk ons or does the formula only include the athletes receiving athletic money. If walk on athletes are part of the equation it COULD concievably have a negative overall impact on the budget if they are in state kids which they more often are.

Clearly with no college softball to watch I am just having too much time to think.
MAXX

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Reply with quote  #18 
This is a much more complicated topic than anyone can begin to try and explain here because of NCAA compliance rules regarding countable money, and institutional policies that govern the types of tuition rates offered whether the school uses fixed scholarship dollar amounts versus the actual number of scholarships.
TheMom

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruDat
Let me give you my somewhat intimate knowledge of this. You can by definition give 12 full "equivalent" scholarships. In a simple illustration, if a full ride out of state is $50,000, and in state is $25,000 and I gave 12 players (half of whom were out of state) scholarships, I would spend 6X$50K and 6X$25K or a total of $450,000. If I gave all out of state scholarships then the total would be $600,000. In the case I am aware of, there is a fixed dollar amount. If that amount were given to all in state players the total number would be more than 12. If there is a mix, then you could fall somewhere near or under the 12. A compliance department would have to monitor the "equivalent" scholarships to make sure you don't exceed 12 while handing out a bunch of partial scholarships. The reason I believe the strict dollar amount is probably the way most state schools do it, is because it is a way to budget dollars. If in my simplest scenario there could be a big difference in what 12 scholarships means in dollars, the budget people would not like it if the number could jump around so drastically. 


Ok, this makes sense and really helps me understand it better. I guess it also makes sense that a school isn't going to let that budget vary much from year to year, never thought about that. Honestly was wondering what my own DD's impact on the schools budget was. She is playing out of state but on a team that recruits mostly in state athletes. So the short answer is her being there and receiving athletic money likely didn't change their buget even though by NCAA calculations it could have. And I also just wanted to understand it all in general. Thanks.
OldWiseOne

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Reply with quote  #20 
The short answer is the NCAA does not have any rules dictating the total dollar amount of each scholarship.  That amount is strictly up to the school and their budgets.

The NCAA only restricts the total number of scholarships available.  There would be no way to dictate total dollars between the schools.  For example, Georgetown is a private school and tuition and fees alone are $56,817 per year for all students.  The University of Georgia is a state school and in-state tuition and fees is $11,818 and out-of-state tuition and fees is $30,392. 

For softball, the NCAA is only worried about percentages of a full grant-in-aid, which will vary greatly from school to school.  For example, here is a simple breakdown:

TOTAL COST - $30,000 in-state                                    Total Cost - $50,000 out-of-state
Tuition - $12,000/$30,000 = .40                                  Tuition - $32,000/$50,000 = .64
Fees - $900/$30,000 = .03                                          Fees - $900/$50,000 = .02
Books - $900/$30,000 = .03                                        Books - $900/$50,000 = .02
Housing - $6,000/$30,000 = .20                                  Housing - $6,000/$50,000 = .12
Food - $4,500/$30,000 = .15                                       Food - $4,500/$50,000 = .09
COA - $5,700/$30,000 = .19                                       COA - $5,700/$50,000 = .11

If a school gave a full ride, the SA would receive all 6 parts.  But the coach can give partials so if an in-state student got tuition, fees and books, they would count for .46 of 1 of the 12 where if an out-of-state student got the same thing, they would count for .68 of 1 of the 12.  

Smaller schools with smaller budgets can and do limit the total dollar amount coaches are allowed to give to keep budgets relatively the same year to year.  Bigger schools with bigger budgets don't restrict coaches on who they can bring in and they typically will over budget the scholarship amount based on previous years averages plus the increases predicted for each year. 

This is a very complicated part of coaching that no one really thinks about.  There are many different types of countable and non-countable aid that will also factor into these numbers.  In addition, there are many state schools that have adjacent or neighboring state rates as well as the Western Undergraduate Exchange that can change these numbers.
MAXX

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Reply with quote  #21 
Job well done Old Wise One.
TheMom

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Reply with quote  #22 
OldWiseOne, you have officially earned your title today! Not sure why my pressing need to understand the math better but now I do, thank you!
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #23 
TOTAL COST - $30,000 in-state                                    Total Cost - $50,000 out-of-state
Tuition - $12,000/$30,000 = .40                                  Tuition - $32,000/$50,000 = .64
Fees - $900/$30,000 = .03                                          Fees - $900/$50,000 = .02
Books - $900/$30,000 = .03                                        Books - $900/$50,000 = .02
Housing - $6,000/$30,000 = .20                                  Housing - $6,000/$50,000 = .12
Food - $4,500/$30,000 = .15                                       Food - $4,500/$50,000 = .09
COA - $5,700/$30,000 = .19                                       COA - $5,700/$50,000 = .11





While a Full Ride player would get all 6 above, it's my understanding that a player on any amount of Athletic Money would receive the COA...?
TruDat

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Reply with quote  #24 
Money is fungible. The percentages of each is nice to play with but the bottom line is at a lot of schools there is a dollar amount and not a percentage amount of scholarship given. The percentages can make budgeting a bit complicated.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #25 
That is why the sort of teams Coach White churned out at Oregon every year was simply.... amazing
azure

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Reply with quote  #26 
I went all through this and found few people understand it.  I've concluded that most schools are constrained by money.  But some schools (few) are constrained by number of scholarships.

It's all about the numerator and the denominator and the Cost of Attendance.  The amount of qualified scholarship money divided by the COA is the scholarship fraction,  At state schools, there is a difference between the COA for in-state and out-of-state athletes.

All scholarship money counts except those based solely on academics or financial need.

The schools that are constrained by number of scholarships can be very picky about aid that your player accepts.  For example, the compliance people at U Oregon would not allow her to accept a $500 scholarship from the local little league because it would be qualified money and would put the department over compliance as to the number of scholarships.

I might add that I never heard of this happening to anybody else.  I think it's because so few schools are rich enough to be constrained by scholarships.  Also this is closely guarded information.  They want you to be in the dark about how much money they have available.  I' m pretty confident about the calculation of the scholarship fraction because I weaseled the number out of the compliance person,

Also, my daughter played 2004-7 so maybe they've changed the rules.

I agreed with Truedat that the money is fungible.  They just give percentages to get you to sign.  It's really a dollar amount.

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TruDat

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Reply with quote  #27 
I am sort of an expert on this. Even academic money can count as athletic money if the circumstances are right and so can financial aid, independent of athletic money. It requires a lot of attention in "equivalent" sports.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruDat
I am sort of an expert on this. Even academic money can count as athletic money if the circumstances are right and so can financial aid, independent of athletic money. It requires a lot of attention in "equivalent" sports.


Give a scenario when when non-athletic money counts towards Athletic Money. That's a new one for me.
azure

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Reply with quote  #29 
I'll let tru answer but here are some examples:

alumni money
community organization money (like the little league)

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MAXX

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Give a scenario when when non-athletic money counts towards Athletic Money. That's a new one for me.


Institutional need based money
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