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Chapple

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge

What types of costs over and above a full ride should we expect to see?

Are we talking about just living costs off campus that are costs above dorm room costs that are covered? Are we talking about additional food costs? Extra costs involving travel and the softball team?

Enlighten me.

In our experience, it really did vary from one school to the next and you need to probe.  One of the fair questions to ask coaches (even with a full ride offer) is "what does a full ride mean?"  or what does a "50% scholarship mean?" 

In our experience one coach indicated it reflected the cost for housing, books, classes based on a 12 hour schedule.  If more than 12 hours were taken, it could be that the extra cost (many schools now charge on a cost per hour regardless of number of hours) for the hours above 12 could be at your cost.  Cathy Aradi's book (link to it is on UCS home page) really does a good job of outlining the questions you need to ask during a visit.  Best advice, keep asking until you can fully understand the bottom line AND the coach agrees with your understanding. 

 

I would point out for those that are looking at out of state schools that you can be asked to have your DD establish a residence in the state of the university.  That would not necessarily change the percent of your scholarship but can greatly reduce the cost of the scholarship to the school because it is an in state tuition instead of out of state tuition. 

azure

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Reply with quote  #32 
From what I've seen, it's hard to establish residency in another state. Has anybody been able to do it recently?
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Chapple

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azure
From what I've seen, it's hard to establish residency in another state. Has anybody been able to do it recently?
It is much tougher in some states than in others.  One risk to the family is that you probably could lose DD as a dependent for tax purposes.  I have heard that establishing residency in California is extremely difficult. 
azure

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Reply with quote  #34 
It''s my understanding that it's about impossible to establish residency in Oregon though I keep waiting for some magic hint.
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3tmz2C

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Reply with quote  #35 

Get specific information when offered a percentage.  Understand the coach can only be so specific, for example, fees are usually an estimate as they vary.  Let's say your DD has a full ride, what other costs??  Setting her up in her dorm room, transportation, laundry and extra food, supply costs.  A fair estimate is an additional $200-250/month.  This can vary from school to school and you won't know until she gets there.  Re-evalute at semester break.  I also have heard from many that they spend more in the fall, more free time and less travel with the team.

 

Regarding residency, if they try to establish residency out of state, they must obtain their own insurance and are not your dependent. 

 

Regarding the student/athlete taking responsibility for additional financial aid, yes, this should happen, but be realistic, most depend on their parents.  The first information sent to them by the financial aid office doesn't show the athletic aid, then another similar letter comes later.  Pretty much greek to them.  You have to guide them through it.

TXCoach

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Reply with quote  #36 

In reality most do depend on their parents.  So both the parents and the students need to be responsible.  Plan ahead.  Everyone should know when their children are preparing for college.  All of the information is available.  There are numerous resources, take advantage of them.  Be proactive and take charge of the situation, rather than waiting for someone else to do it.

I truly believe it is a matter of expectations.  If we raise the expectations of our young people and demand more reponsibility from them, it will probably better prepare them for life after college.

 

My compliance office and I were discussing this very issue today.  She received a phone call from a parent wanting to know if their daughter was eligible to compete this spring.  Is this not something the student-athlete should know?

 

I expect all of my players to be responsible for everything that deals with their education.  I do not do their class schedules.  I do not have study halls.  I do not do room checks and I do not institute a curfew, except when we are on the road.  If they cannot be responsible for the things off of the field, can I really expect them to be responsible on the field?

 

And yes, I have had some players not be responsible and become ineligible or have disciplinary issues.  But, the majority have not and I feel I have some very responsible people this year and the majority of them are freshmen.

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #37 

TxCoach agree with you that it is the responsibility of both parents and children to do their research prior to choosing a college to go to.

But to me, it is the responsibility of the parents to support their children until they graduate and get a job.

That is the way I was brought up and it is the way I brought up my children.

Of course there are parents that tell their children I am only responsible for you till 18, then you are on your own.That to me is not too parental.

But as I always say :" Chacun a soi "

But do not forget parents that you were the ones that brought those children into this world and it is your responsibility to guide them and support them until they can stand on their own two feet.

Do not forget that your greatest  treasures in life are your children.

TXCoach

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Reply with quote  #38 

Well said, Hammer, well said!

lneisius

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Reply with quote  #39 

Taxpayers... This is not a goverment funded program but a private buisness. Anyone who thinks other wise had better start living in the real world.

Firstsacker

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Reply with quote  #40 

The breakeven point for in-state vs. out-state at my DD's university is approx. 72%.  The remainder is room and board which is identical for in-state vs. out-state students. 

 

The calculations will appear odd but here is a simple example.

 

Out-state Tuition, Room and Board, Books, and Fees equals $21,400 of which $6000 represents Room and Board.  72% of $21,400 is $15,400.  The financial statement from your university will show the schlorship dollars allocated to tuition, fees, and books with zero dollars towards room & board ($6000).  This looks odd but considering that room & board is a taxable you can understand the reasoning.  Bottom-line the student athletes benefits by changing their residency below the 72% threshold (Your calculations may differ based on tuition variances).  The benefit vs. the hassle may not be worth the change.

azure

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Reply with quote  #41 
Sometimes (often) you are not able to change your residency....

At least, they have me believing that

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ikeepscore

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Reply with quote  #42 

azure

I agree.  Tennessee is also tough.  Unless the student is empancipated, their official address is where their parents reside at the time of enrollment.  I've heard the New Mexico has  pretty relaxed residency rules.

gosaints

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Reply with quote  #43 

 

Regarding an "out-of-state" athlete, I've heard that a lot of schools waive the out-of-state portion for athletes.  Can anyone validate that?

 

Also, can the 12.0 scholarships allowed by the NCAA be divided by among as many players as the dollars can be spread or can you only have 12 athletes receiving some sort of athletic aid.  It's been explained to me (possibly incorrectly) that the 12.0 scholarships allowed is the limit on total dollars (as opposed # of players) that a particular program can spend...example:  "Total Cost of Attendance" at that school times 12.0 = dollar limit allowed and the coach/institution can spread those dollars around as they see fit.  Is that on track or even partially correct?

 

One final thing, if that is correct, does that make an out-of-state athlete less attractive to a school if they know they have to offer a "full ride" to compete with other offers the athlete is getting since it would take more dollars out of the allowed pool.

 

Just trying to understand how the 12.0 total scholarships is calculated and how out-of-state tution affects that (if at all) assuming that schools don't waive the out-of-state tuition portion.

 

 

 

Firstsacker

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Reply with quote  #44 

My DD is out-of-state.  The scholarship is a % of the overall cost (tuition, fees, room, board, and books) regardless if the tuition is out-of-state or in-state.  So the calculation is against the entire amount (for example $18,000 of $24,000).  When she receives her scholarship paperwork the scholarship dollars ($18,000) are applied first against tuition, books, and fees and the remainder to Room and Board.  The reason...taxes.  Room and board is taxable and you or your DD will claim it April 15th. 

 

A truly full-ride athletic scholarship (tuition, room, board, books and fees) requires the athlete or parent to pay taxes on the athlete's living expenses.  Dependent on your tax bracket and if your DD is a freshman-sophomore vs. a junior-senior (remember the educational credit for the first two years of college) someone will pay $800 - $2000 to the IRS. 

outfieldfence

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Reply with quote  #45 
It's a sum of fractions.

The fraction for each team member is

amount of athletic money / total cost of attendance

For a public school with an out of state fee, the total cost of attendance is different for in-state and out-of-state students

The fractions of the scholarship for all of the players must add up to 12.0 or less.  As far as I know, they can split up the fractions among as many players as they wish.

My dd is an out of state student.  When she had a partial scholarship, they phrased the amount as one way but the *fraction* used by the department was 47%

gosaints

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Reply with quote  #46 

Thanks much to both replies.   It's extremely helpful in navigating what seems to be a fairly hard thing to get information on.

 

Do you know if it is common for institutions to waive the out-of-state portion of tuition for athletes (versus it counting towards the athletic fund)?

 

 

 

 

outfieldfence

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Reply with quote  #47 
I think it varies,but from what I've seen, no they don't waive the out of state fee.

Many of these universities really want that out of state money.  The money coming from the athletic department is real.  I have had heard one case where an athlete did not receive any athletic money but was able to apply for another scholarship at the school which specifically paid the out of state fee for desirable students.

In our case, it was very clear that the out of state fee applied and there was no way around it.

You are correct, it is hard to get information about this.  It is not in the athletic department's interest for you to know about how the scholarships work.  They will often give you just enough information that they feel you need to know.  Their job is to get the athlete to come for the amount they offer.  They often don't welcome nosy questions from parents who want to understand how this works.

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #48 

The Best way to not pay the out of state money, and you have not heard it from me is:

After your decision of where to go.

Go to that state, get a driver's license, get a PO Box or a mailing address. thus you will almost be an IN state by the time you start college.

At the most is that you will pay out of state for one semester only instead of a year.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #49 
Hammer - Outstanding advice. I know of a situation recently where parents wanted more money from a collegiate coach, and the coach asked them about the residential situation that you describe, and they were aghast that they hadn't thought of it. My guess is that it saved them approximately $15,000. These days one needs an accountant just to decipher scholarship and residence potentials.
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outfieldfence

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Reply with quote  #50 
Wish it is that easy.  In my dd's state, in order to get residency you have to

a. prove that you are not financially dependent on an out of state person
or
b. prove that you are in the state for purposes other than to go to school

So an athlete coming from out of state cannot establish residency.  I thought about maybe staging it so, on paper, she looked like she was dependent on an in-state resident, like roommate's parents or something like that.  But I realized that the compliance guy would catch me in about 30 seconds.

You would have to work a year living in the state without going to school to establish residency.  Not appropriate for an athlete.

Also, even if you could change residency, it would mess up the scholarship.  If they offer you x money based on an out of state cost of attendance, they could not offer you the same amount of money based on in state attendance.  It would change the percentage of the scholarship and, assuming that the department was giving out 12.0 scholarship, put the department out of compliance

In most states, they have taken out the 'just get a drivers license and voter registraton" loopholes.  They want the money.

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #51 

Then I would

In addition of start saving & getting a second job.

After all children's education is one of the most important aspect of parenting.

Go for it as I am sure you will do it.

NorthSouth

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Reply with quote  #52 

Correct.  Establishing residency is not that easy.  If the athlete is a dependent and is carried on your insurance, it is nearly impossible. 

 

Some schools offer a tuition reduction for certain states, look up the WUI program.  Alot of schools get around the 12.0 scholarship by splitting athletic money among their roster and getting foundation or academic scholarships for the rest. 

 

I do not believe the "how it works" aspect is shared or known by the college coaches.  It is not their job to hash out the numbers and they really don't know the intricate details.  They dole out the pots of money they are told they have.  In my experience, regarding mixups in financial aide (student loan or outside scholarship) the coach may not offer assistance or referal to the financial aide office.  Problems with athletic dollars are within the coaches responsibility to find out and get the problem corrected.

 

Just as you balance your checking account each month, it would be prudent for you to keep up with your DDs account at school.

outfieldfence

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Reply with quote  #53 
I was told that you could not combine WUE money with athletic money.

Also, at my dd's school, they would not allow her to accept any scholarships that were not strictly needs-based or academic-based because those monies would count against the department total and put the department out of compliance.  That includes alumni association, community based, etc.  I thought that was lousy but it wasn't like we had a ton of that money rolling in.

I agree that the coaches do not necessarily know the intricate details about this.  They rely on the athletic department staff to keep all this straight.

gosaints

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Reply with quote  #54 

I've gotten more info. out of this forum in the last 24 hours than a hundred other conversations I've had, so...thanks for all the info. that's being provided.

 

What's the WUI / WUE program?  I'm sure it's an acronym for something but this is the first I'm hearing about it.

outfieldfence

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Reply with quote  #55 
Western Undergraduate Exchange. It's a program among western states where a student from one state can attend a public university in another state for 150% of instate tuition.  Not all schools honor it and some restrict it.  At my DD's school, they only let in 25 people/year under WUE and you have to have a real specific major.  One thing about WUE, you have to apply for it as a freshman, if you don't start out that way, you can't switch.
NorthSouth

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Reply with quote  #56 

http://wue.wiche.edu/

OOps it is WUE, sorry, been a long time since I have looked at it.  At our univeristy the WUE or WICHE tuition is listed as the tuition you will be charged, and yes, you must start out as a freshman.  There is no restriction regarding athletic dollars.  A big cost savings for a coach who wants to recruit from a WICHE state, which includes California and Arizona.  Some states are fairly restrictive in the students who are allowed to benefit from this, others are not.

Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #57 

I have found out there are so many rules regarding scholarships (both NCAA and NAIA) and how athletic may effect academic and vice verse.

 

My DD received a pretty good one athletically and then busted the books and got another for the rest of what was owed.

 

Marion Tollaksen Fischer Endowed Scholarship

To be eligible the recipient must be an Athletic Training major and maintain a 3.0 cumulative grade point average. Scholarship gift from this fund may not exceed 36 credit hours of tuition in an academic year, including summer.

 

So you really have to check with the finance personnel on campus to be sure.

 

Peacekeeper


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Skimom

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Reply with quote  #58 

My DD is a 09 pitcher and I am new to all of this.  I have heard from other parents that Ivy League and all the UC schools - UCLA, UC Berkley, UC San Barbara, UC San Diego etc., do not give athletic scholarships. Is this so? Just beginning and trying to figure all this out.

Edge

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Reply with quote  #59 

Ivy schools do not give athletic aid but playing softball can get your daughters foot into the door of a school that she normally could not have gotten into. ( I saw one softball SS get into Brown with only a 26 on her ACT)They do give a tremendous amount of financial aid  money and this is made readily available for the athlete based on your income. Your daughter may also apply for and qualify for additional academic scholarships they have. I know a  girl who was on my daughters team had a father who was a doctor and even with his salary she ended up going to an Ivy school for about 12,000 a year after aid. UCLA does offer athletic scholarships in addition to academic ones.

dumb_parent

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Reply with quote  #60 

UC San Diego is a division 2 school and at this time they do not give athletic money.

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