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3leftturns

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I had this post on the Auburn thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Plenty of hard asses in real life work situations too. There IS a line. But, to my sensibilities, I do see a fair share of princesses with that inverse relationship between their egos and their abilities, for whom a "stock market correction" can only help long-term


What a column this is by the superb Sally Jenkins:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/womens-college-athletes-dont-need-another-coddling-parent-they-need-a-coach/2017/06/23/4765cf40-5820-11e7-a204-ad706461fa4f_story.html?utm_term=.b01e3c4a494f

outofzone

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Reply with quote  #2 
An excellent read, thanks for posting. The presser the UCONN coach gave after his title game loss I believe, was also very interesting. 

You forgot the "Trigger Warning" before you posted though.
jayrot

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It's such a weird world to live in right now. This is an actual concern for some people, and yet EE still has a job. With the socal media visibility the way it is today, I can't feel bad for any coach at this point. At this point, both sides of the equation should know what they're getting when they make the "agreement." Also, there is a weird insinuation in here that there aren't ways for coaches to navigate the current environment and still be hard-nosed, as if Gasso and Walton are sitting over here galloping in the flowers with their players. I will say that there seems to be a fine line that some coaches don't quite grasp. It wasn't until I moved to Los Angeles that I learned to appreciate Sue E as a coach. I always thought she was too aggressive and I preferred the more calm demeanor of a Candrea. Someone who I very much respect once told me that Sue E was the master of laying into her players but she always knew how to build them back up. That's stuck with me when looking at coaches. Does the coach have the ability to knock the player down a few pegs, but then still earn the players trust by building said player back up.

Lastly, anyone who thinks Pat Summitt would've been fired is moronic, unless she allowed shady crap to go on under her watch (a la Rittman) or tried shady practices (a la Gregg Goff or Dana Durante).
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #4 
I believe that Jenkins is saying that Summitt, as a newbie, would be in trouble
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
I believe that Jenkins is saying that Summitt, as a newbie, would be in trouble


I mean but would she? I mean it seems like you can still be hard on players as long as you don't cross that line into being degrading or an a$$hole.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #6 
She was famously austere.

I am guessing the behavior decried on our board isn't that tough. But who knows.
olddawg

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot
It's such a weird world to live in right now. This is an actual concern for some people, and yet EE still has a job. With the socal media visibility the way it is today, I can't feel bad for any coach at this point. At this point, both sides of the equation should know what they're getting when they make the "agreement." Also, there is a weird insinuation in here that there aren't ways for coaches to navigate the current environment and still be hard-nosed, as if Gasso and Walton are sitting over here galloping in the flowers with their players. I will say that there seems to be a fine line that some coaches don't quite grasp. It wasn't until I moved to Los Angeles that I learned to appreciate Sue E as a coach. I always thought she was too aggressive and I preferred the more calm demeanor of a Candrea. Someone who I very much respect once told me that Sue E was the master of laying into her players but she always knew how to build them back up. That's stuck with me when looking at coaches. Does the coach have the ability to knock the player down a few pegs, but then still earn the players trust by building said player back up. Lastly, anyone who thinks Pat Summitt would've been fired is moronic, unless she allowed shady crap to go on under her watch (a la Rittman) or tried shady practices (a la Gregg Goff or Dana Durante).


Perhaps Gasso, Walton, etc. are just better at recognition, during the recruiting process, of the type of kid who does not wilt under criticism;  who are not destroyed, but strengthened by discipline.  That type of kid, perhaps, can be knocked down and rebuilt more successfully. 
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by olddawg


Perhaps Gasso, Walton, etc. are just better at recognition, during the recruiting process, of the type of kid who does not wilt under criticism;  who are not destroyed, but strengthened by discipline.  That type of kid, perhaps, can be knocked down and rebuilt more successfully. 


I think the problem is those kids are farther and fewer between now unfortunately and scarily!
olddawg

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough
I think the problem is those kids are farther and fewer between now unfortunately and scarily!


Yep.  Parenting, I also think, is the issue.  A while back, I talked with a school district superintendent about the concept of more smaller high schools within his district as opposed to fewer larger high schools.  He explained to me that parental pressure to have more slots available for cheerleaders, players of all sports, etc. was a major influence. In these schools,  I have counted more cheerleaders than band members at football games.  Part of the trophy for participation mentality, I think.  Kids are not shown how to deal with failure productively at home anymore it seems.
volcrazy89

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Reply with quote  #10 
I don't know WTH Sally is talking about in some of that article. Either Sally wasn't a friend of Pat's for 21 years or Pat won more than three NCs while she knew her. That math simply doesn't add up.

It's also easier to be harder on your players when you have little to prove as a coach. Her example of Yori wasn't a great one, as Yori never achieved much success at Nebraska outside of 2010. Pat was going to Final Fours pretty much as soon as she started coaching at Tennessee. She notoriously mellowed as her career went along, and was also very gracious to her players and involved with them as people. Yori, from what I've been told in the past, wasn't like that at all. Pat was adored by most of her players in her time as coach.

Opposedtohate

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot
I mean but would she? I mean it seems like you can still be hard on players as long as you don't cross that line into being degrading or an a$$hole.


One of Sally's main points is that "kids these days" think coaches are degrading or a$$holes if they have tough conditioning drills, expect players to work hard and be accountable to teammates, etc.  Then there are rabid so-called fans of the sport who wait for any opportunity to slam certain coaches publicly. Then, diligent institutions are caught in a tight spot - launch investigations that lack merit or look like a Baylor or Penn State.  

I have all respect in the world for the Great Pat Summitt, but let's be real.  She was tough and expected her players to work hard, no matter their inherent abilities.  You better believe if she was a softball coach, her pitchers would be working on strength and conditioning with everyone else.  And you better believe that with "kids these days" and "parents these days" she'd likely be a target for complaints.  And she'd more likely shrug it off and say something like "if you don't care enough to work hard, then you don't care enough to play in my gym."

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Strong belief that adult ncaa sports fans should be supportive instead of hateful.
jayrot

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opposedtohate


One of Sally's main points is that "kids these days" think coaches are degrading or a$$holes if they have tough conditioning drills, expect players to work hard and be accountable to teammates, etc.  Then there are rabid so-called fans of the sport who wait for any opportunity to slam certain coaches publicly. Then, diligent institutions are caught in a tight spot - launch investigations that lack merit or look like a Baylor or Penn State.  

I have all respect in the world for the Great Pat Summitt, but let's be real.  She was tough and expected her players to work hard, no matter their inherent abilities.  You better believe if she was a softball coach, her pitchers would be working on strength and conditioning with everyone else.  And you better believe that with "kids these days" and "parents these days" she'd likely be a target for complaints.  And she'd more likely shrug it off and say something like "if you don't care enough to work hard, then you don't care enough to play in my gym."


See to me the coach who would be in trouble today would be someone like Bear Bryant, not Pat Summit. That manufactured quote isn't something near as bad as some of the stuff these other coaches are supposedly saying. Every coach is going to have someone who goes to the administration. It isn't until you give them something to push you out with that you'll be tossed. (My example of this would be LHC.)
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by olddawg


Perhaps Gasso, Walton, etc. are just better at recognition, during the recruiting process, of the type of kid who does not wilt under criticism;  who are not destroyed, but strengthened by discipline.  That type of kid, perhaps, can be knocked down and rebuilt more successfully. 


That's my point. Gasso and Walton don't have anything innate in them that allows them to look at a player and a know whose going to have those characteristics. They have to do the same "research" every other coach should be doing. The other coaches are just selling out for talent (a la Walton with the Fagans).
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1janiedough


I think the problem is those kids are farther and fewer between now unfortunately and scarily!


I've often wondered if this is a result of the popularity of the sport, with coaches wanting to be the next Enquisr or Candrea and with players/parents wanting their precious child to be the next Abbott or Chamberlain. It maybe be less about the honest of wanting to play the sport and more about chasing the excitement.
rudymartinez

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Reply with quote  #15 
Some coaches see great players and some coaches see great team players. The coaches that see great players recruit them by dangling the you're the next great one. Winning coaches see great team players and sell them the opportunity of a championship. It's not just parents, it takes two to tango. And more often it's  a nasty polyamory.
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #16 
We have two extremes: 1) old-school "drill-sergeant" coaches willing to "break to make" a player, and 2) coaches reduced to "camp counselors" trying to keep minimal order in the "cabin".
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
We have two extremes: 1) old-school "drill-sergeant" coaches willing to "break to make" a player, and 2) coaches reduced to "camp counselors" trying to keep minimal order in the "cabin".


Can you give examples of each group?
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot
Can you give examples of each group?


Mickey Dean/JMU for #1.

No idea for #2
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone


Mickey Dean/JMU for #1.

No idea for #2


I just thought it would be interesting to see if anyone would call out a coach for being stereotyped as "weak" by being a "camp counselor."

I can give you one, but no need to pile on her as she just had to find a new job.

Or what if you have a 1 and a 2 in the same coaching duo?
rudymartinez

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Lots of threads about coaches. You know you have arrived on the sporting landscape when everyone wants to blame the coach. Welcome to the bigs Softball.
1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #21 
"The reason the kids are this way is simply that every waking hour they are now an unofficial, official employees of the university, on television, failures constantly in focus. How about you wake up early, exercise, go to class, make weight (ie can't be fat), meet conditioning requirements, get told you suck, fit in some classwork, never get to play, and see how "cranky" and needy you would be."

Oh my God.  Safe space please!
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot


I just thought it would be interesting to see if anyone would call out a coach for being stereotyped as "weak" by being a "camp counselor."

I can give you one, but no need to pile on her as she just had to find a new job.

Or what if you have a 1 and a 2 in the same coaching duo?


In other words, you want somebody else to do what you aren't willing to do...

The VAST majority of coaches are somewhere between. This is really more a question of programs than coaches, I think.

For the first, some coaches who are "tough but fair" will be skewered for a slip of the tongue, while some truly abusive coaches will be requiring athletes drop their cell phones in a bucket as soon as they enter the locker room.

As to the second, look to any coach who has been at her/his post a decade or more, without a winning season, for some examples. Some, of course, just don't have the talent (because they're not fully funded or have recruiting budgets that preclude flying or staying overnight, unless sleeping in their car), while others have talent, but waste it.

rudymartinez

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Reply with quote  #23 
Welcome to the new world Kawasaki. It's 1984 for college softball George Orwell. Softball has replaced volleyball, womens basketball and college baseball in popularity. Big Brother and the rest of us will no longer accecpt  mediocrity.
BlueSky

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RIP, Frank Kush 6/22/2017.
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Kurosawa

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudymartinez
Welcome to the new world Kawasaki. It's 1984 for college softball George Orwell. Softball has replaced volleyball, womens basketball and college baseball in popularity. Big Brother and the rest of us will no longer accecpt  mediocrity.


You mean 2084, don't you. Of course, by then they'll be playing softball indoors using nerf balls...
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


In other words, you want somebody else to do what you aren't willing to do...

The VAST majority of coaches are somewhere between. This is really more a question of programs than coaches, I think.

For the first, some coaches who are "tough but fair" will be skewered for a slip of the tongue, while some truly abusive coaches will be requiring athletes drop their cell phones in a bucket as soon as they enter the locker room.

As to the second, look to any coach who has been at her/his post a decade or more, without a winning season, for some examples. Some, of course, just don't have the talent (because they're not fully funded or have recruiting budgets that preclude flying or staying overnight, unless sleeping in their car), while others have talent, but waste it.



I was never asked to, so the assumption is interesting. You are the one who wanted to list the extremes, so you are the one who got asked. Don't get involved if you're not willing to go all the way.

Whenever anyone cares enough to ask, I'll give mine.
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrot
I was never asked to, so the assumption is interesting. You are the one who wanted to list the extremes, so you are the one who got asked. Don't get involved if you're not willing to go all the way. Whenever anyone cares enough to ask, I'll give mine.


I simply characterized the extremes in a humorous manner. You were the one calling for "names". My response was jocular (should have added a "smiley") - see my comment that it is really "more about programs than coaches". It also applies across sports.

Two of the more recent glaring examples of the first ("demeaning drill sergeants") being fired: Bob Ernst (women's rowing) and Jim Moore (women's volleyball). To be fair, Ernst was an old school "curmudgeon" coach who made himself a target by refusing to zip his lip (about female rowers' weights), rather than an outright dictator. Regardless, his replacement just won the national championship, with a first-ever sweep of all races. Moore just couldn't control himself, from throwing tantrums, on and off the court.

Note: Positive coaching (see Heather Tarr) and No Fear coaching (see Frosty Westerling, incidentally a real former Marine Corps drill instructor) are not the same thing as "camp counseling" - just shows that motivations to perform need not be negative.
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