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TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #1 
AS REPORTED BY SPY SOFTBALL -
RISING STARS FRIDAY – RAINED OUT
Still raining Friday night but hopes are high a complete schedule can be played Saturday. Negative comments by college coaches, travel ball coaches and parents are still raining down on NFCA and NCAA for cramming four weeks of college recruiting into one period which, parents note bitterly, falls into the midst of a critical marking period. Now, having been rained out of the first Surf City, then burned out in San Diego, teams with eligible players are planning to return to California for the Batbuster or Houston for the Ronald McDonald, and, hopefully, some smaller tournaments. Sure, they don’t have to play, but tell that to some 17yr old with D1 skills who is seeing her contemporaries getting early verbals – and she wants to play – and be seen. Even players who have written to college coaches are not certain they will be seen; the tournaments have expanded so much that there is overwhelming competition for the attention of college coaches, even after sending letters. Ironically, some of the college coaches who pushed for the recruiting restriction are the same coaches who jack up the pressure to play by taking so many early verbals.

NFCA served up a dog’s breakfast and NCAA forced the kids to eat it!

According to the NCAA web page, only DI coaches are restricted from recruiting. All other coaches at all other levels can recruit all they want in the fall until Thanksgiving.

According to the NFCA, each conference votes on each rule proposed. There is a conference rep for each conference. They poll their member institutions and they put forth the vote that the majority of their members are in favor of. The next step is for the NFCA to submit any proposals that get a majority vote to the NCAA rules committee. The committee then decides if the rule should be forwarded to the college presidents for an official vote.

Get the fact right before beginning smear campaigns. That does not seem very difficult to do.

If you are good, you will play DI. In football, many of the DI and DII coaches work with each other, and you can't tell me that others, like JC's are not going to keep the Di coaches up to date on how their prospects are doing. Besided, according spy, their all early committed anyway because of those bad DI coaches. Come back to reality.

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RandyF59

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Reply with quote  #2 

I don't believe it is wise to disagree with Rayburn Hesse in regards to how this negatively impacts many programs and players. The top D-1's always get their girls but now the others have even less chance to find the "leftovers". I believe the effect will be to cause more girls to walk-on their 1st year to get the chance to play for their dream school. Oh, and guess what, it saves the big dogs a ton of money in recruiting.

TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #3 
I do not disagree with him, I just think he has his facts a little mixed up and I think he very misinformed when it comes to how these coaches actually vote. If that many coaches REALLY wanted this rule to voted out, it would have been voted out. In college baseball, the smaller DI schools dominate the rules because they show up and vote and take a stance in what they believe in. That is why the schools like the Anteaters can compete with the big dogs. I simply do not believe ALL that he writes. Plus, I do not have to be careful questioning him. It is my duty as a softball fan!
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TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #4 
Randy - One other thing, since I have been visiting this site and spy, it amazes me how inaccurate the information is and unprofessional the writing can be. The sport has so much to learn, especially in behavior and language. Spy was unprofessional in his writing. I, as a fan, and athletic professional, expect better.
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RandyF59

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Reply with quote  #5 

I accept your position 2.6 However, Rayburn Hesse unprofessional???. Mr. Hesse sees first hand the new recruiting environment is detrimental to the players interest and that is good enough for me. I'm sorry you don't hold the man in such esteem. He has been a champion of girls playing softball for a long time. Your background appears to put you on the opposite side of this fight. I believe a large majority on this site would choose his position if put to a vote against yours. If they change it back, will you congratulate Mr. Hesse for helping our girls?

Andy

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Reply with quote  #6 

Rayburn spends tons of his own money to run his site and travel around the country to report o softball. He has been great for the sport and I know personally that he has helped numerous players get signed. I don't know what your real beef is but I support Rayburn both as a friend and colleague.

The middle teir players who typically took numerous showcases to be seen and recruited are being hurt by the selfishness of those who wanted the shorter window. Period

 

TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #7 
I agree. The rule is bad, but it still should be reported accurately. I HAVE NO BEEF. I HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST IN THIS MESS LIKE YOU DO. There had to have been more coaches that wanted the rule than those who did not want it. There is NO WAY the rule passes unless the majority voted on it. MY POINT is that those coaches who were willing to sit on their hands and not take a stance are using him and talking out of both sides of his mouth. I am for the guy and his support of the kids.

He spends his own money because he chooses to do that. He has done some nice things on his sight for softball. I particular like his sidebars on history and politics.

Easy. Andy, take a deep breathe. According to the NCAA page, every sport but golf has a recruiting calendar. Did I read that right?

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TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #8 
RANDY - The last line was unprofessional and not needed. Keep it at a high level. I just did some more home work. Karen Johns, Assistant to the USA Team has just taken a position at the NFCA and her primary responsibility is TRAVEL BALL coaches. I suggest that all of you email her and get your beef moving in the right direction. Once again, I am on Mr. Hesse's side. I just think he is being snowed.
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Andy

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Reply with quote  #9 
I know Karen for years. But on this she is wrong. I do not need to email her. I did when this was first proposed. And I see the direct result now. Many colleges I talked to the past few weeks contend they do not support it.  Rayburn is "dead on" on his reporting of it.

Those players who are not blue chippers need every opportunity to be seen. Making the recruit window shorter only serves the top tier colleges and players.

Yes, Rayburn spends his own money because he chooses to, Duhhhhhh
So do I and many others so why why come in here and trash talk him? Where is your politically correct and accurate webpage?

RandyF59

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Reply with quote  #10 
Sorry 2.6 if I was impudent, I will bow to the other more qualified speakers on the subject. I sense you might feel a bit misunderstood and welcome your newfound understanding of Andy, GaryH and those who though definitely GOB are doing good for more girls than was ever possible before they came along. And I never argue with ANDY when it comes to softball-PERIOD.

there,how's that!
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
If I read these posts correctly, there are two issues here, whether the new rule is good for kids; and if not, and secondly, who is to blame for its implimentation. I believe that Mr. Hesse gave dual blame to NFCA and NCAA in his "dog breakfast" statement, and that was what Two to Six was complaining about, the potential lack of effective reporting of the actual process (thus perhaps the laying of blame where it might not belong exclusively or even actually), not whether the rule was good or bad. As a matter of fact, I think he/she perhaps agrees that the rule isn't a good one, but resents the blame being placed for it on collusion between NFCA and NCAA, and Mr. Hesse's reporting it that way. Most following posts seem to address Mr. Hesse's general veracity and image (outstanding in general obviously to anyone connected with softball) or whether the rule is good or bad. In my opinion, posts should address who is responsible for this rule exactly, and whether Mr. Hesse reported that accurately. That would address Two to Six's complaint about this singular reporting incident.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #12 
Make no mistake, I have no problem with him pointing his finger at any one group. I think dignity should be maintained.
I also think that these college coaches are speaking out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to this insane rule being passed. Rayburn is being used and I think it is sad.
Professionalism should be maintained.

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Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming - John Wooden
Cheese

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Reply with quote  #13 
Frank:

Let me try to make some sense out of how the process worked with the NFCA Head Coaches Committee on creating the new recruiting calendar.  I've had a front row seat and have some of the same concerns being expressed here.

Each conference had a vote either for or against the proposal.  On this basis the vote for the proposal was overwhelming. But when you look closer I don't think the vote for the proposal was as nearly as strong as those numbers would have suggested. 

Some conferences, Big 10, 12, SEC, PAC 10 were nearly unanimous in their support. Which supports the "big schools" discussion on this thread where they know they will get their kids and  don't need to worry about the middle level kids who need to be seen more to be discovered.  I would agree with this opinion.

Many conferences, the middle of the road schools, supported the proposal but often by much closer votes.  Many conferences reported 5-4 types of results from their conferences.  I thank some of these schools hope that by grabbing the coattails of the big conferences they can push their administrations to support them better and help them catch up in the "arms race".

Some conferences, the smaller schools with less resources, were clearly against the proposal.  Where I think they feel they need more time to see and evaluate players since they have smaller staffs and less money to spend chasing after recruits.  This is the voting block which always seems to get rolled over by the momentum created by power schools and the wannabes who follow their lead.

I don't know what the vote would have been if it had been one school one vote but I don't think it would have been the landslide it appeared to be.  Why this type of vote is important is that it clearly impacts the decision making at the NCAA Convention.  At the NCAA where the decisions are made, the Presidents and Athletic Directors who make these decisions ultimately are not very well informed about the impact of each piece of legislation on each specific sport when they vote.  Often, especially with "less important" items, they just vote the company line and if their conference supports it they vote for it with little, if any, thought.

I agree with most of the posts that the recruiting calendar is bad for many of the kids.  But the recruiting calendar is only part of an overall system that has so many flaws we can't address them all here.
This fall has been the perfect example of why many people are so against the recruiting calendar.  If we hadn't had rain outs, wind outs and fire outs there may not be this much concern but these circumstances have brought the issue to a head.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #14 
Two to Six - Well, there certainly is no doubt about your stance concerning the worth of the rule as you dub it "insane". That leaves only the blame factor, doesn't it? It appears that you blame college coaches who allowed the rule to reach fruition through their inaction (or maybe their action?). Mr. Hesse placed blame on NFCA and the NCAA. Do I have that right? It seems that numerous softball people dislike the rule, yet it became a reality through what appears to be a flawed process. Now, what makes the process flawed, and how can it be fixed so that this doesn't happen again, and is there a process in place to dismiss or modify this rule currently in effect?
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #15 
Cheese - Thank you. I am now less ignorant. Who instigated the proposal (at NFCA I assume), and why, and how did it gain momentum?
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #16 
Frank

After searching spysoftball.com I was able to find this link.

http://www.spysoftball.com/ncaa_considers_calendar_revision.htm

While this may be Mr. Hesse's version, it provides all of the facts (as of the date of the article) as best I can tell. 


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And if I don't like what you say then...

your kid sucks.
TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #17 
The only problem I have is that we need to be better role models for our young kids. Name calling and trash talking any form of authority would not be my way of presenting the material and the facts. So if I took your post as is, editorials can write things that are not factually true? I just do not see it that way. I also do not like coaches who do not speak the truth.

I have read all of his posts. From my research on this matter, the crappy rule that has been imposed was taken to each DI conference. Within the confernece, each head coach voted yes or no. The majority would represent the vote of the conference. Total up all the conferences that voted yes and you get a proposal that is sent to the NCAA committee. If all of these coaches are complaining to him that they were against the rule (and I do BELIEVE him and his writing) then they are not being truthful.

From a reliable source, who did not vote in favor of this rule, however, their conference did, this has been discussed at the NFCA convention for 9 years +. What the heck is going on then?

I will never post on this site without finding out the right information. I would hope to do it with dignity and respect.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #18 
MDD - Thanks -I had read that previously as I do keep up with Spy's columns and respect his ability with the written word and his avid promotion of "our game". Frankly, with his ailments, I just don't know how he does it and admire his tenacity. I think this particular column spells out well his perspective, and perhaps his use of "dogs breakfast" in another column was simply too inflammatory and derogatory for some. At least that's my take.
P.S. Biscuit - abstaining from reading isn't a solution I feel. I agree that Mr. Hesse is very much a columnist (I enjoy his writing) and less a reporter, and should be viewed as such. However, he has valuable insights which he shares as a columnist. Abstaining from those insights, I think, makes us less aware, whether we agree with him or not.
P.P.S. Two to Six - I find your approach refreshing and as Utopian as my own !! "Ah, that a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" - J. Browning.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
redfeather

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Reply with quote  #19 
If in fact the concern is for the middle level player who the D1 schools do not even bother with.  And only the D1 colleges are governed by this rule would it not be smart for showcases for D2 & D3 be provided during the non D1 recruiting dates be offered?

This will provide the middle level player and D2/D3 to get a better look at some talent that they are normally not available to evaluate.  Because as we all know D1 is the only way to go because all other level of play is lacking and if D1 wants to limit themselves and not be able to evaluate talent that is their fault why limit D2 & D3.

If this rule is not changed I am pretty sure there are some enterprising people out there who will start showcase tournament for non D1 recruiting dates.  Maybe this is one way the GOB will stay away from this type of tournament because we all know they do not care about any level other than D1.  Then those teams who do not normally get the top spots will play at the main complex.

The only problem could be the lack of funding for tournaments other than  those that are already being staged during the D1 recruiting dates.  But who knows until you try.
gosaints

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Reply with quote  #20 
If in fact the concern is for the middle level player who the D1 schools do not even bother with.  And only the D1 colleges are governed by this rule would it not be smart for showcases for D2 & D3 be provided during the non D1 recruiting dates be offered?

This will provide the middle level player and D2/D3 to get a better look at some talent that they are normally not available to evaluate.  Because as we all know D1 is the only way to go because all other level of play is lacking and if D1 wants to limit themselves and not be able to evaluate talent that is their fault why limit D2 & D3.

If this rule is not changed I am pretty sure there are some enterprising people out there who will start showcase tournament for non D1 recruiting dates.  Maybe this is one way the GOB will stay away from this type of tournament because we all know they do not care about any level other than D1.  Then those teams who do not normally get the top spots will play at the main complex.

The only problem could be the lack of funding for tournaments other than  those that are already being staged during the D1 recruiting dates.  But who knows until you try.
======================================================
Ironically, some of these are already popping up.  There's one in Dallas the 2nd weekend in Nov.  (See clip pasted from website below).
 
http://www.eliteshowcase.com
Nov  9-11  The Nov Diamond Sports College Showcase and Recruiting Camp (This showcase is geared towards NCAA D2,D3, NAIA and JUCO coaches


TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #21 
Everyone is making valid points. But how did it pass if SO many are unhappy. How did the mid-major conferences have not had a better stance on this. Say Mid-Major Valley Conference (made up conference to make a point) voted yes because of a 5-4 vote within their conference. How did that happen if they were so concerned? Sounds like Rayburn is being used. They had the power to keeep this from happening and they did not do it.
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TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #22 
Seabiscuit - The level that you state, who cares, matters to a bunch of those kids, coaches and parents. APPY STATE! Think they matter to Michigan?
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Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming - John Wooden
Cheese

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Reply with quote  #23 
Frank:

The initial push for the fall recruiting calendar came from several influential coaches on the committee who said they wanted to look out for the student athlete.  Their argument being that kids were being held hostage by the amount of time and money they had to spend to go to so many recruiting events during the fall season.  The push for a limited schedule started there.  Honestly I don't believe the welfare of the student athlete was nearly as important as the well being of the college coach but that is just my take. 

I think many coaches are so worried about getting left behind if other coaches are working while they are not that this got pushed through to force everyone to follow the model some coaches prefer.  What is really frustrating is that some of these coaches from the power conferences,  who really pushed this agenda, already have all the advantages anyway.  Even more alarming is that many of these same coaches who are afraid of falling behind have finished recruiting 09 kids already and are working on 10's. 

Another observation from being at three of these big fall events is the number of really talented 08 kids who are still looking for a place to play.  There are going to be more and more strong players "discovered" late in the process which may help some of the mid level schools a great deal.  The power schools in their race to land the big fish early are going to leave a lot left in the pool for others to catch later on.
RandyF59

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Reply with quote  #24 
Seabiscuit said "say there are 200 top level players, that leaves over 1,000 mid-level or lower level players that are needed for D1". Is it not at Exposure events that those 1200 players need to prove their level. Or do all these coaches know at first glance a top level player.

It seemed to me that ranking can be applied only after the fact by who signed you. Please define for us less knowledgeable how else to rank a player. SPARQ?Travel team?HS stats(lol)? That way we will know which level of Exposure event to attend.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #25 
Cheese - Most "legislation" is begun in a smoke filled room by a few influential individuals whose agenda benefits them. They then spread their influence and gather votes. Evidentally this happened at NFCA and their "will" became proposed rule. NCAA, as you suggested, perhaps basically rubber stamped the suggestion. Now folks who are affected negatively, or now see negative repercussions, and who perhaps should have acted at the proposal level, are reacting to the result. So it goes.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
NorthSouth

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Reply with quote  #26 

The bottom line is this year, this decision does not benefit the unsigned 08 and hopeful 09 students.  The BIG schools are investing in the '09 students as they stand at the end of their soph year, assuming the academic and athletic work gets completed.   The mid-level schools are scurrying to catch up and the lower level programs sit and wait to get the ones that fall through.  The mid and lower level school might just find a prize in there somewhere.  This process is relatively unchanged, it's just crammed into 4 weeks which has now turned into essentially 2.  Makes us all a little cranky.

gthompso

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Reply with quote  #27 
RandyF59 said: "It seemed to me that ranking can be applied only after the fact by who signed you. Please define for us less knowledgeable how else to rank a player. SPARQ?Travel team?HS stats(lol)? That way we will know which level of Exposure event to attend."

Randy - I believe a player can be ranked by comparison well in advance of signing. Knowing whether a player is of D1 caliber can be determined by how they stack up against other known quantities. If a player has faced a Donna Kerr and went 1 for 3, then she has proven that she can hit PAC 10 pitching (IMHO). Or at the very least earned another look. If she k'd all 3 times, it could be a bad day, or maybe she's not quite ready for the PAC 10, but would be a heck of a catch for another school/conference where the pitching is not quite so advanced/experienced.

I'm sure Kerr established herself by being successful against batters that are considered PAC 10 caliber hitters.

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TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #28 
Have a "BCS" NCAA championship and a "Who Cares" NCAA championship in D1. - Your words not mine.
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Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming - John Wooden
TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #29 
JG - What is amazing to me is that coaches would want to restrict their opportunities. Why would they not want to get out there and see these kids? One of my theories on the problems that exist in DI football and basketball (only in the sense of bad fits and lots of problems off the court) is their limited opportunities to see the kids compete, spend time talking to them and really finding out if that kid is right for the program and if the progam is right for the kid. The more limits that are placed on the process, the more of the percantages start moving toward mistakes, which results in transfers.

I miss the old days. You played soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter and softball in the spring. Summer time was filled with running from field to field, gym to gym, changing close in the back seat while your Mom or Dad shuttled you around. Three sports all summer.

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Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming - John Wooden
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #30 
Two to Six - That innocence that is responsible for the adages in sport and the myths of positives and icons disappears (or is given mouth honor) quickly and unfortunately when "Ws" become the major if not only measure of sport or when sport becomes entertainment for financial gain. I'm afraid that the most we can hope for is balance and an understanding of the pragmatism that follows the death of innocence in athletics.
P.S. "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, a grieving nation turns its eyes to you. . ."

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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