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TruDat

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Reply with quote  #31 
So what happens, you recruit a kid and are really nice to the parents. Make them feel comfortable with you. Then the kid comes to your school and you proceed to ignore and pretend you don't know them. A mature coach can be quite cordial to parents without compromising anything. Some of these coaches take themselves too seriously anyway.
NadiaM

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Reply with quote  #32 
I think good coaches, secure in their coaching and leadership abilities, don't take a cookie cutter approach to dealing with parents. Just like there are nutty coaches, there are nutty parents, and some boundaries need to be defined early and clearly to prevent potential issues. 

I will say this, coaches worth their weight in peanuts, get to know their players well and are not opposed to communicating with parents. Those coaches realize that up until the player leaves for college, their parents are their primary influence in softball, and in general, of course.  It can be to their benefit sometimes to ask for the parents' input when the kids are struggling.

Not all parent / coach interaction is initiated by the parents, although I'm sure the majority of it is.  
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #33 
Our daughter decided to walk on at a particular school for a few reasons. Anyway we went into the meeting with him and after pleasantries she did the talking and he spoke with her. After the meeting since we knew him for quite some time we spoke briefly about friends we had in common. After that we haven't spoken. Dont need to. Our daughter is an adult now and can handle herself.
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MAXX

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Our daughter decided to walk on at a particular school for a few reasons. Anyway we went into the meeting with him and after pleasantries she did the talking and he spoke with her. After the meeting since we knew him for quite some time we spoke briefly about friends we had in common. After that we haven't spoken. Dont need to. Our daughter is an adult now and can handle herself.


Hi buddy!
Dusty

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Reply with quote  #35 
Ok, so the consensus is that parent/coach interaction is limited to social functions only how about private hitting or pitching coach/college coach interaction? 

I have heard of some college coaches either sending their pitchers to private instructors on occasion or allowing them to work with their current instructors during the offseason but don't know how widespread that is.  Hitting?  I would think the vast majority of college coaches want to use their own hitting coaches rather than private instructors but don't know that for sure either.

As a possible case in point I know Carly Hoover has worked (maybe still does) with Denny Tincher but that crouched way down pre-motion she used to have two seasons ago is not something you see in a typical Tincher student.  This past season she was much more upright in her pre-motion but still not as much as a typical Tincher student so I wonder who would have made that change between the '17 and '18 seasons in her mechanics?  Tincher, a different private instructor or the LSU pitching coach?
    
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #36 
The crouching tiger, hidden softball I believe was Torina all the way
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
Ok, so the consensus is that parent/coach interaction is limited to social functions only how about private hitting or pitching coach/college coach interaction? 

I have heard of some college coaches either sending their pitchers to private instructors on occasion or allowing them to work with their current instructors during the offseason but don't know how widespread that is.  Hitting?  I would think the vast majority of college coaches want to use their own hitting coaches rather than private instructors but don't know that for sure either.

As a possible case in point I know Carly Hoover has worked (maybe still does) with Denny Tincher but that crouched way down pre-motion she used to have two seasons ago is not something you see in a typical Tincher student.  This past season she was much more upright in her pre-motion but still not as much as a typical Tincher student so I wonder who would have made that change between the '17 and '18 seasons in her mechanics?  Tincher, a different private instructor or the LSU pitching coach?
    

Not sure that specific mechanic matters.

Most coaches are just not going to tolerate a private coach telling their athlete something different from what the coach is teaching.   

I have known several kids that felt they would maintain a relationship with their private coach through HS.  That they would call them, or chat with them, and maybe even come back to get a 'lesson'.  It just never really works that way.  2 things are happening. 

First, once they hit a D1 school, they are going to meet their pitching coach, and they will be with that coach 5 days a week from Sept 1st (start of fall) through the first game.  Things are going to go the way that pitching coach wants them to go.  Same for hitters.  A conversation or 2 on the phone or a 'lesson' over a break is not going to change that course much.

Second, the young lady should be maturing from someone that is very coachable to someone that has a lot of her own thoughts about how things should work.  When you walk out on a college field, those days of coaches saying much from the dugout, or parents saying much from the stands are out the window.  

Hoover had back issues part way through her career.  Would not take someone much time to convince her that excessive premotion might be a wasted energy and could be a source of that back issues.


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vcaldwell

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthestands
Everyone on here is quick to assume that my question means that I'm a helicopter parent.  My daughter is mid-way through her college career and has gone through a coach change.  My interactions with the new coaches have been of the "hi/bye" and "nice game" variety.  However, there are several other parents on the team that hint around at having had private conversations with the coaches.  And if you read through this message board - which I've done for about the last 5 years - many posters here talk a big talk as if they "know things" from coaches or administrators.  So my question was being posed as more of a "am I the only parent out there that doesn't talk to the coach?".  

Thanks to those that share their stories.  


Having been through what you are about to go through I hope your experience is better than ours. Unfortunately many coaches have the mindset that they need to clean house and "run off" (in our case literally...RUN off) players that they didn't recruit so that they can make room to bring in their type of players. Many feel the pressure of having to turn a program around and only having one recruiting cycle to do it. Few schools care about the how to's and there are still coaches around who will do this. Rachel Lawson at Kentucky was an exception and got the existing player to buy in to her program. I think Bev Smith at S. Carolina has been successful bucking the trend as well.

When my DD's new coach came in just before junior year he set a running test that EVERY returning player had to pass (except for those players HE recruited or that he REALLY needed) The time to beat was not set by the training staff, or based on body size, etc... 5 players quit. My DD ran so much she got physically ill on more than one occasion.  She even beat the time once (as witnessed by her entire team) but he "forgot" to start the watch. She eventually beat the clock with the help of the members from track team, football team, track coach and her entire team helping her. Even through all of that we, as parents, stayed out of it. I think the only time a parent should be involved other than as a cheerleader is if the safety of DD or other players is involved. The only words I had with the guy were on Senior Day.

JMHO,
Vic Caldwell
TruDat

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Reply with quote  #39 
I don't approve of a player going to a private coach while in college. Who is the ultimate authority? My bet is the private coach (that has been my experience). Many of these private coaches are worthless anyway. Second thing. Also in my experience, the running tests and all of that is done by coaches who can't coach. Conditioning is important. Diet is important. But you still see overweight players, even on the big teams. Teach them how to play the game and even the previous' coaches players can help you win.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #40 
As an individual hitting teacher some thoughts......

Once a player verbals, the college coach is their instructor...........It's the way it is and has to be..........

With the recent rule change in recruiting, the player has a longer window to stay working with their private instructor..........
Doctor

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Reply with quote  #41 
I think a confident, well rounded coach with good social skills will embrace the players and their families. I seen it both ways and the coaches that embrace the families have a better support system and happier athletes. 
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Emptynester

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor
I think a confident, well rounded coach with good social skills will embrace the players and their families. I seen it both ways and the coaches that embrace the families have a better support system and happier athletes. 


Bingo
Softball98mom

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor
I think a confident, well rounded coach with good social skills will embrace the players and their families. I seen it both ways and the coaches that embrace the families have a better support system and happier athletes. 


I believe a few of these coaches have social skills that could stand to be improved, a lot!
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcaldwell

When my DD's new coach came in just before junior year he set a running test that EVERY returning player had to pass (except for those players HE recruited or that he REALLY needed) The time to beat was not set by the training staff, or based on body size, etc... 5 players quit. My DD ran so much she got physically ill on more than one occasion.  She even beat the time once (as witnessed by her entire team) but he "forgot" to start the watch. She eventually beat the clock with the help of the members from track team, football team, track coach and her entire team helping her. Even through all of that we, as parents, stayed out of it. I think the only time a parent should be involved other than as a cheerleader is if the safety of DD or other players is involved. The only words I had with the guy were on Senior Day.

JMHO,
Vic Caldwell
Reminds me.

Bum Phillips when asked about Earl Campbell's inability to finish a mile, he answered, "When it's third and a mile I won't give him the ball".

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Mark H
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
As an individual hitting teacher some thoughts......

Once a player verbals, the college coach is their instructor...........It's the way it is and has to be..........
..
Because that worked so well at TX for years [biggrin]


I understand your point, but if your stats drop, they aren't going to start you even if you swing exactly like the coach instructs. At the end of the day, each player is responsible for their own performance. To me, the point of the individual instructor for all those years is to make the player their own instructor. I'd expect you would agree with the last sentence.

I should add, if a player is hitting well, my job as a college hitting coach would be to understand their swing so I can help when they get in a slump whether I like the swing or not. Now if I know from video before they come in that she's six or seven frames (.2-.23 seconds) from first move of the bat head into the swing plane till contact rather than .16 seconds or less (maybe brought in for her defense?) then the college hitting coach should likely break her down but if she's quick enough even though outside of the coach's program, let her succeed or fail with what she's used to before you mess with her.

As to the kids already there, I suggest leaving your top six alone till you coach up some of the lower stat hitters to pass them. If you can do that, maybe you have some business messing with the former top hitters. If you can't, leave the top hitters alone.

As always, compare everything anyone says about how to swing a bat to LOTS of slow and full speed video of elite hitters. Let that be your truth detector. Make sure some of the swings are on outside pitches.



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Mark H
CoachZ

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H
Reminds me.

Bum Phillips when asked about Earl Campbell's inability to finish a mile, he answered, "When it's third and a mile I won't give him the ball".


❤️❤️❤️
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #47 
A couple of remarks.  I have former high school players who are in college now come back all of the time and hit.  Typically, they want me to set aside time during their Christmas break to get swings in.  They hit with me most of the summer.  Right or wrong, they need that reinforcement though I have tried to coach them to know their own swing and to not need me.  Secondly, I have a player who has verballed who went to the school's camp this summer.  She hit 2 bombs in the scrimmage game they played.  When she came home, she was a mess.  She said that the coach said that they are going to have a lot of work to do to change her swing.  I asked what she did on her other at bats and she responded that she went 3-3 and a walk.  This young lady crushes it and a college hitting coach wants to change her after seeing her crush it against other recruits.  That tells me something about them.
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3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
A couple of remarks.  I have former high school players who are in college now come back all of the time and hit.  Typically, they want me to set aside time during their Christmas break to get swings in.  They hit with me most of the summer.  Right or wrong, they need that reinforcement though I have tried to coach them to know their own swing and to not need me.  Secondly, I have a player who has verballed who went to the school's camp this summer.  She hit 2 bombs in the scrimmage game they played.  When she came home, she was a mess.  She said that the coach said that they are going to have a lot of work to do to change her swing.  I asked what she did on her other at bats and she responded that she went 3-3 and a walk.  This young lady crushes it and a college hitting coach wants to change her after seeing her crush it against other recruits.  That tells me something about them.
Everyone's swing and process gets altered to some degree at the schools I am familiar with
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #49 
For better or worse this is true.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #50 
Myself, Mark and Coach B25 have been posting together and studying hitting together for quite a few years..........And, we, all, teach hitting to individual players and have for a long time........And, we have students who have played, and are playing, college softball on scholarships..........I believe it's safe to say we know each other's hitting theories pretty well and have a healthy respect for each others ability to teach hitting..........And, we do not teach identical swing-sequences, or have the same teaching techniques........... 

Now, you can teach a hitter all you want, but, if a coach is gonna get involved in her swing-sequence, all bets go out-the-window...........Teaching a player to self-correct their swing only goes so far..........In reality, it flat-out doesn't work.......If it did, they wouldn't need to come back to their instructor for reinforcement.........Simply put, a player doesn't just learn a certain swing-sequence and they're off to-the-races..........That swing-sequence needs to be reinforced daily many times over-and-over to remain their default swing-sequence..........The brain is fickle in that way........If a coach interferes with that process, that swing-sequence the player is looking for is gone.........The swing-sequence will morph into something that is who-knows-what, a mish-mash of movement and timing...........That's just the reality of what happens..........Which is brought-to-light in CoachB25's very competent comments ..........The following has happened to me, Mark and Coach and it is frustrating, but again, it is reality.........

CoachB25 said.......
Quote:
When she came home, she was a mess.  She said that the coach said that they are going to have a lot of work to do to change her swing.  I asked what she did on her other at bats and she responded that she went 3-3 and a walk.  This young lady crushes it and a college hitting coach wants to change her after seeing her crush it against other recruits.  That tells me something about them.









Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
A couple of remarks.  I have former high school players who are in college now come back all of the time and hit.  Typically, they want me to set aside time during their Christmas break to get swings in.  They hit with me most of the summer.  Right or wrong, they need that reinforcement though I have tried to coach them to know their own swing and to not need me.  Secondly, I have a player who has verballed who went to the school's camp this summer.  She hit 2 bombs in the scrimmage game they played.  When she came home, she was a mess.  She said that the coach said that they are going to have a lot of work to do to change her swing.  I asked what she did on her other at bats and she responded that she went 3-3 and a walk.  This young lady crushes it and a college hitting coach wants to change her after seeing her crush it against other recruits.  That tells me something about them.
Yep. I think I'm going to add find out what their swing beliefs are before you commit to my standard advice to prospective college players. Go to a camp. Take their instruction BEFORE you commit.

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Mark H
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #52 
Mark said.......
Quote:
As to the kids already there, I suggest leaving your top six alone till you coach up some of the lower stat hitters to pass them. If you can do that, maybe you have some business messing with the former top hitters. If you can't, leave the top hitters alone.


If what Mark is very competently saying would become reality, the hitting in college softball would greatly, greatly improve..........
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Everyone's swing and process gets altered to some degree at the schools I am familiar with
Sometimes it's a Mike, Gerry or before he was disgraced Clint doing the changing and sometimes it's a this comes naturally to me Connie doing it.

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Mark H
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Myself, Mark and Coach B25 have been posting together and studying hitting together for quite a few years..........And, we, all, teach hitting to individual players and have for a long time........And, we have students who have played, and are playing, college softball on scholarships..........I believe it's safe to say we know each other's hitting theories pretty well and have a healthy respect for each others ability to teach hitting..........And, we do not teach identical swing-sequences, or have the same teaching techniques........... 

Now, you can teach a hitter all you want, but, if a coach is gonna get involved in her swing-sequence, all bets go out-the-window...........Teaching a player to self-correct their swing only goes so far..........In reality, it flat-out doesn't work.......If it did, they wouldn't need to come back to their instructor for reinforcement.........Simply put, a player doesn't just learn a certain swing-sequence and they're off to-the-races..........That swing-sequence needs to be reinforced daily many times over-and-over to remain their default swing-sequence..........The brain is fickle in that way........If a coach interferes with that process, that swing-sequence the player is looking for is gone.........The swing-sequence will morph into something that is who-knows-what, a mish-mash of movement and timing...........That's just the reality of what happens..........Which is brought-to-light in CoacB25's very competent comments ..........The following has happened to me, Mark and Coach and it is frustrating, but again, it is reality.........

Coach said.......



In the words of Paul Simon "Over and over again".

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Mark H
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #55 
3leftturns said...........
Quote:
Everyone's swing and process gets altered to some degree at the schools I am familiar with


This is absolutely reality in softball..........And, it's the reason I've said that once a player verbals, they're in the twilight zone..........

I inform my hitting students of colleges I would avoid because of their hitting philosophy...........And, I let 'em know that once they accept a verbal, they need to buy-in to their new coach...........Make the transition workable as best as you can..........

So, as Mark has said, choose wisely!
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #56 
Once you HAVE chosen ... you have to have an open mind... if you sulk and get coached up back at home on your breaks, you will be pulling splinters out of your butt
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Once you HAVE chosen ... you have to have an open mind... if you sulk and get coached up back at home on your beeaks, you will be pulling splinters out of your butt
Maybe. Many of the kids who were still starting some years back at Texas WERE the kids who were getting help elsewhere.

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Mark H
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #58 
Bluedog, it is kind of scary how long you MarkH and I have known each other.  All of us have coached hitting for a very long time and have had hitters do remarkably well at all levels.  I think the common thread for all three of us is that we try our best to set up lines of communication with our hitters.  It isn't us telling them what to do but rather it is a joint effort with them learning their swing.  A lot of times, but not always, coaches simply tell a hitter what to do.  Many hitters can't process orders if they don't understand why.  Of course there are great college hitting coaches who do set up lines of communication.  
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Those mountains in front of you will seem like little hills when you are beyond them and they are in the past!
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
Bluedog, it is kind of scary how long you MarkH and I have known each other....  Many hitters can't process orders if they don't understand why.  .  


It IS scary. I think of myself as about 45 but I can't be because I didn't have my first child at ten.

As to your last sentence, that is very much me. If it doesn't seem to be a logical whole to me, I struggle to learn it. If it makes sense, I can learn anything easy enough that I was lazy in school because I could be. I suppose I assume everyone is that way (not the lazy part) because there's a LOT of talking at first with a new student. What is their paradigm, what is mine then what do they look like swinging? Show them where I think their inefficiencies are by asking them where their video looks different from these videos of elite hitters. Better if they figure it out themselves. Always encouraging them to check anything I say against video of elite hitters. Then live with their tendencies as they develop except the ones that slow down quickness from first move of the bat head into the swing plane till contact or detract from accuracy at contact. Eventually there is very little discussion unless I cock my head to the side with a hmmm and she grins and says "yeah I know". It's fun when you get to the smile and watch them swing phase. The process varies with older girls. You have to live with more the older they get in general. And yeah, a joint effort. I hadn't thought of it that way. I've always thought of it as trying to make myself unnecessary with her becoming her own coach. That type of reality based education on the swing that they can take away and give to someone else someday is NOT what I see happening at the big cages. I see instruction, whether by design or ignorance, that serves to keep a weekly check coming into someone's pocket for most of a decade. Instruction designed to make them the indispensable sensei and the only one who has spent the years to truly understand this dazzling complex art. [rolleyes] It's understandable. They have a mortgage too.

It's fun working with smart girls. Exception to the older kid comment, freshman slapper in college was going to be left alone on her full swing but I just couldn't look at it anymore and took her aside with a theory and mechanics verbal session with some air swing demos. Came back a week later and she had it figured out to a T. Head coach probably had something to do with that. Never slapped that year and hit over 300. That was the absolute least amount of coaching I ever had to do on a girl from absolutely NO swing to competence. She was a brilliant brain though. (I've had good luck with pure slappers learning a full swing.) Her old travel coaches were very puzzled the next summer when I talked to them. Still are I expect.

I guess what you do has many variables with each kid. Age? Is she hitting as well as she wants to at the highest level she aspires to? How coachable? How's her proprioception? How good is the person who is going to help her ever day and does he or she grok it? I've had parents that watched it happen and to this day don't know what happened. I see some twelve year olds grasp it immediately and know a navy pilot who still doesn't understand enough to ask the questions. He would pick out things like she was swinging at the first pitch as the reason for success. Clearly he's not dumb but it's just a particular kind of intelligence I think. If mom or dad or college coach gets it, chances of success are MUCH better. It's not always necessary though.

OK I've officially rambled. Thinking about how long I've conversed with you two got me thinking back.

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Mark H
NuNusDad

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Reply with quote  #60 
We used to have a saying: "The Good news is that coach is gonna coach, and the BAD news is coach is gonna coach."


A bad coach will ruin a player and then bench them once they're broken. A good coach will rebuild a player and have a little patience as they get comfortable with the new mechanics. A great coach will analyze the existing mechanics and fine tune it.

Most coaches are the first or second.

The irony is that the coaches recruited them because they could play. Then they change everything. 🤣

Too many dads tell horror stories of coaches ruining their kids then planting them on the pine. At that point they stop messing with them and the kid is free to use whatever resources are available to fix themselves. When the coach puts them in and they have some success, coach takes credit even while they are doing it the same way as before coach screwed them up.

The kids need to understand that the coach is in charge, BUT the kid is responsible for their own success.

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