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SECFan13

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Reply with quote  #151 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldMiss
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDogFan007
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazsdad
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDogFan007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldMiss
Best of luck to the girls who were over recruited and signed with Mike Smith. The roster is going to balloon to 35-plus next year. What a joke


The roster won't be that big.  Rumor from up North is cuts are already happening.  5 or 6 girls already cut.  Smith recruited 8 to 10 2016's too.  He will get them there and the end of next Fall cut them in half too.  

Dangle the carrot and they will come.  Then once they get there, chop them off at the knees and send them home......
Hope you don't try to make wine with those grapes.


No sour grapes here man, just reporting what I heard. 
He's already told those girls there options. "Cuts" have been made. Won't be on team but will keep scholarship for the spring. My roommates went through the same crap last year!


If you are honoring scholarships for the year, why cut after the Fall?  Makes no sense.
RELAX

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Reply with quote  #152 
Are they free to transfer and play in the spring? Seems like there's always schools looking for mid-year transfers.
PDad

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Reply with quote  #153 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SECFan13
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOldMiss
He's already told those girls there options. "Cuts" have been made. Won't be on team but will keep scholarship for the spring. My roommates went through the same crap last year!

If you are honoring scholarships for the year, why cut after the Fall?  Makes no sense.

I believe they can only cut a scholarship mid-year if there is cause (e.g. player broke rule). Keeping them costs more (e.g. meals, travel) and they certainly don't want to keep anyone that might cause problems because they're unhappy.

Roster has been updated and looks like 4 frosh were cut.
Clemons

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Reply with quote  #154 
So that's how many girls gone since the beginning of last year? 5-6 and 4 more now? Seems totally normal for a softball team. How many were lost to graduation?
Stretch

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Reply with quote  #155 
I see nothing "totally normal" about this (sorry Clemons). If I was still coaching TB down here, I would be steering my players away from a program like this. This is not HS ball and they are not trying out for a team, they, in some cases, gave up other opportunities for this.
Clemons

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Reply with quote  #156 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
I see nothing "totally normal" about this (sorry Clemons). If I was still coaching TB down here, I would be steering my players away from a program like this. This is not HS ball and they are not trying out for a team, they, in some cases, gave up other opportunities for this.


That was meant with heavy sarcasm.
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #157 
Flo puts the committed list behind a log-in because he is trying to make money on his website, it has nothing to do with kids reading who is committed where.

If you want to see a list go to gold fastpitch.

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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #158 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerpAlum

Flo has locked the Verbal list behind a log-in. Probably because kids could read who else already committed too easily. I hope someone starts a list that everyone can readily see.

Another ridiculous post from the resident hater.
Why not open your wallet for a few bucks. Do you work for free?

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Stretch

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Reply with quote  #159 
I understand the heavy sarcasm, just a little slow down here. There are many more to blame than the coach here though. What about the AD that is allowing this to continue (and you know it's going to next year)? Some of it is on the players and the parents also. If you find out that a coach has 5 OF commits the same graduating year with older OF players already there, what do you expect? These are big red flags. I have seen on Gold Fastpitch schools with as many as 5 pitchers listed for the same year. Really ? I can hear the conversation now as the signing period gets closer "Well, we are going to have to pull back our offer because you haven't developed like we thought you would." Meanwhile, they have pulled themselves off the market for the important couple of years. Got to love the early recruiting. I see 2020 commits already listed.
TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #160 
It's ironic that when a coach cuts some players in order to find better ones, everyone is up in arms, but when a player transfers to a "better" place, everyone is happy about it.

You can't have it both ways.
Stretch

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Reply with quote  #161 
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.
TheOldMiss

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Reply with quote  #162 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
It's ironic that when a coach cuts some players in order to find better ones, everyone is up in arms, but when a player transfers to a "better" place, everyone is happy about it.

You can't have it both ways.


No excuse. He recruited those players and cut them before they even played a season. recruiting skills are lacking!
TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #163 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.


I'm talking about transfers in general.  Everyone here is "happy" for the player, but doesn't seem to care about the program they are leaving behind.  Now a coach is doing it and some people are pissed.  It just doesn't make sense.

FTR, I am in no way condoning what is being done by some coaches, but to think players wouldn't bail on a coach or program the first chance they get is naïve. 
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #164 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.


I'm talking about transfers in general.  Everyone here is "happy" for the player, but doesn't seem to care about the program they are leaving behind.  Now a coach is doing it and some people are pissed.  It just doesn't make sense.

FTR, I am in no way condoning what is being done by some coaches, but to think players wouldn't bail on a coach or program the first chance they get is naïve. 

Coaches hold the lions share of the cards.  There are only few athletes that have any power in negotiation.  

Recruiting at very young ages creates a situation where kids and families are forced to make decisions 5 years out.  This happens before they have really even get a lay of the recruiting landscape, before they find sites like this or heybucket.  Hell before they know what kind of kid they are going to become.

Then you have coaches that carry 30+ on their roster, bringing in 10-12 freshman every year, and graduating 4.  Then they want to hold out on a transfer, and not have anyone hold it against them.   

Compared to some programs that run 18, bring in 4-5 freshman and graduate 4-5 seniors.  They loose a kid about every 6 years.  These are much better situations all around.  You rarely hear of these programs holding out on a transfer request, because they are professionally run, and they use their recruiting to find viable candidates.  Once they realize it is not going to work out, they often come to this conclusion together and help the student and team move forward.

When you hear hold out requests it always seems to come from these overdone grist mill large roster teams.    Cause they are loosing Suzy, some pitcher that has performed above expectation at their level, and they have treated fairly crappy and the kid wants to move on.  Oh, then we are thinking about the precious program.  Out come the hand cuffs.  Going to take a year of that kids life.   

Well screw them coaches.  They are going to get brought up here, and it is going to cost them future recruiting potential.  In basketball the hold out coaches are avoided by good recruits.  Recruits know coaches who get out the handcuffs regularly are not coaches you want to be around.

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TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #165 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.


I'm talking about transfers in general.  Everyone here is "happy" for the player, but doesn't seem to care about the program they are leaving behind.  Now a coach is doing it and some people are pissed.  It just doesn't make sense.

FTR, I am in no way condoning what is being done by some coaches, but to think players wouldn't bail on a coach or program the first chance they get is naïve. 

Coaches hold the lions share of the cards.  There are only few athletes that have any power in negotiation.  

Recruiting at very young ages creates a situation where kids and families are forced to make decisions 5 years out.  This happens before they have really even get a lay of the recruiting landscape, before they find sites like this or heybucket.  Hell before they know what kind of kid they are going to become.

Then you have coaches that carry 30+ on their roster, bringing in 10-12 freshman every year, and graduating 4.  Then they want to hold out on a transfer, and not have anyone hold it against them.   

Compared to some programs that run 18, bring in 4-5 freshman and graduate 4-5 seniors.  They loose a kid about every 6 years.  These are much better situations all around.  You rarely hear of these programs holding out on a transfer request, because they are professionally run, and they use their recruiting to find viable candidates.  Once they realize it is not going to work out, they often come to this conclusion together and help the student and team move forward.

When you hear hold out requests it always seems to come from these overdone grist mill large roster teams.    Cause they are loosing Suzy, some pitcher that has performed above expectation at their level, and they have treated fairly crappy and the kid wants to move on.  Oh, then we are thinking about the precious program.  Out come the hand cuffs.  Going to take a year of that kids life.   

Well screw them coaches.  They are going to get brought up here, and it is going to cost them future recruiting potential.  In basketball the hold out coaches are avoided by good recruits.  Recruits know coaches who get out the handcuffs regularly are not coaches you want to be around.


Do you have any statistical data to back up your claim on "hold outs" coming from programs that carry 20-30 players?  USA has been brought up recently as having lost some players to "transferring up", and they only carry 18.
voiceofconfusion

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Reply with quote  #166 
Making crap up is a god given right on this board (and any message board for that matter). All facts do is slow down the rhetoric, and nobody wants that. 
TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by voiceofconfusion
Making crap up is a god given right on this board (and any message board for that matter). All facts do is slow down the rhetoric, and nobody wants that. 


Haha - why let the truth get in the way of some coach bashing!
ParceQue

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Reply with quote  #168 
Just my opinion...

The position a 'program' is in when a kid initiates a transfer is that they still have two-dozen players, their facility, their coaching staff and their familiar surroundings.

The position a player is in when the coach reduces/extinguishes scholarship, or -- more likely now with multiyear scholarships -- uses belligerence to give said player that push? Moving to a new place to be a de facto freshman all over again, likely at less money on the scholarship. I couldn't think of something sucking like that (that didn't involve a health issue) as a teenager.

Coaches get an 18-year-old who isn't the same player as when they committed at 15, or even signed at 16/17. Or coaches take over a program and don't want the remnants of someone else's thought process.

The girls? They want their commitment to work out. Just look at their commitment process. The girls stick with it for three years, go on only one official visit and dutifully sign their paper, and they don't engage in the multi-hat BS on signing day that football players do.

I just see nowhere near an equivalency in this issue. Though multi-year scholarships should help.


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TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #169 
I don't disagree with most of what you said...but what if it is the best player on the team (usually is), or what if the player leaving costs coaches their jobs?  No doubt this has happened, and is usually championed by most on this board. 

Just wanted to cast a light on what appears to be a double standard.  I think we will see this as a growing trend in college softball as there is more pressure to win in the P5 conferences.  There was definitely a shift in allowing coaches to cut players scholarships, or cut them entirely, for athletic performance about 7-10 years ago.  Some schools allow it while others do not.  This would be another great question to ask during the recruiting process.
ParceQue

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Reply with quote  #170 
You will not get an honest answer to that.

Additionally, there is no guidebook to get a hold of the players who flamed out of the program. And no player AT the program is going to throw coaches under the Greyhound.

This is the kid's first rodeo. Not the coaches'

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TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #171 
You can ask administration if the school allows the coach to cut players scholarships due to athletic performance.
ParceQue

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Reply with quote  #172 
Absolutely.... you can ask.....
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SECFan13

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Reply with quote  #173 
I will re-ask my question from above..... What does a coach have to gain by releasing players after the Fall?  If they are walk on athletes, they aren't costing the program anything.  And if they are scholarship athletes, you are still on the hook for the scholarship through the Spring.  Smith could have kept all the players for the year and released them after the season.  The players would have had a few months to find another program to transfer to.  

I am SURE releasing the players when he did sent several players and families into tail spins as to what to do.  Make a snap decision to transfer immediately possibly to a school that really the player wont even fit in at.  It is Lose Lose for the player and family for sure.
MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #174 
Yep and the administration will always give an honest answer
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TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SECFan13
I am SURE releasing the players when he did sent several players and families into tail spins as to what to do.  Make a snap decision to transfer immediately possibly to a school that really the player wont even fit in at.  It is Lose Lose for the player and family for sure.


No doubt, and it is extremely odd for sure.  Makes you wonder if the players knew coming in this was a possibility or if there was any behavioral issues.

After seeing what he did with his coaches in the offseason and the way he treated his players last year, no one should be surprised by anything he does at this point.  If I had a DD there, I would be looking for a new school immediately.  If I was committed, I would definitely re-open my recruitment.  He has shown absolutely no loyalty.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #176 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SECFan13
I will re-ask my question from above..... What does a coach have to gain by releasing players after the Fall?  If they are walk on athletes, they aren't costing the program anything.  And if they are scholarship athletes, you are still on the hook for the scholarship through the Spring.  Smith could have kept all the players for the year and released them after the season.  The players would have had a few months to find another program to transfer to.  

I am SURE releasing the players when he did sent several players and families into tail spins as to what to do.  Make a snap decision to transfer immediately possibly to a school that really the player wont even fit in at.  It is Lose Lose for the player and family for sure.

When this has happened in the past it was because the down roster kids were forming up a group, sitting around bad mouthing team, coach program, etc.  They were trying to drag more players into their group.  Not sure this was the case, here.

I think often programs that behave like this are just not investing the time and effort in the front end of their recruiting process.  Making sure they have great recruits that have a high percentage chance of succeeding in that program is a lot of work.  Or a worse case, they are putting in the time and effort and just suck at it.  Either way, they tend to compensate by bringing lots of kids to campus.  

UW used to do this.  Az.   A lot of programs.  Most of them figured out all those extra bodies at the end of your bench often come with a lot of negative side effects.

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Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParceQue
and they don't engage in the multi-hat BS on signing day that football players do.


Everyone wants the kids to not have to commit till late. The multi-hat BS that football players do accomplishes this. So...why is it BS?

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #178 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.


I'm talking about transfers in general.  Everyone here is "happy" for the player, but doesn't seem to care about the program they are leaving behind.  Now a coach is doing it and some people are pissed.  It just doesn't make sense.

FTR, I am in no way condoning what is being done by some coaches, but to think players wouldn't bail on a coach or program the first chance they get is naïve. 

Coaches hold the lions share of the cards.  There are only few athletes that have any power in negotiation.  

Recruiting at very young ages creates a situation where kids and families are forced to make decisions 5 years out.  This happens before they have really even get a lay of the recruiting landscape, before they find sites like this or heybucket.  Hell before they know what kind of kid they are going to become.

Then you have coaches that carry 30+ on their roster, bringing in 10-12 freshman every year, and graduating 4.  Then they want to hold out on a transfer, and not have anyone hold it against them.   

Compared to some programs that run 18, bring in 4-5 freshman and graduate 4-5 seniors.  They loose a kid about every 6 years.  These are much better situations all around.  You rarely hear of these programs holding out on a transfer request, because they are professionally run, and they use their recruiting to find viable candidates.  Once they realize it is not going to work out, they often come to this conclusion together and help the student and team move forward.

When you hear hold out requests it always seems to come from these overdone grist mill large roster teams.    Cause they are loosing Suzy, some pitcher that has performed above expectation at their level, and they have treated fairly crappy and the kid wants to move on.  Oh, then we are thinking about the precious program.  Out come the hand cuffs.  Going to take a year of that kids life.   

Well screw them coaches.  They are going to get brought up here, and it is going to cost them future recruiting potential.  In basketball the hold out coaches are avoided by good recruits.  Recruits know coaches who get out the handcuffs regularly are not coaches you want to be around.


Do you have any statistical data to back up your claim on "hold outs" coming from programs that carry 20-30 players?  USA has been brought up recently as having lost some players to "transferring up", and they only carry 18.

2 transferred last year from Tenn to Cal, no hold out.  Tenn - 21 players.
1 transferred from Tenn to ND, no hold out.
Pendley left AZ, no hold out, AZ was like 21 players at the time.
Stevens leaves Stanford, no hold out.  Stanford is always at 18 or so players.
Schreyer leaves Stanford, no hold out.  
Hoover left Stanford, no hold out.
Casey Stangel leaves Missouri, no hold out.

Now look at the cases with holdouts.  ULL Peyton Grantham, SDSU Danielle O'Toole, Arkansas Vann Stuedemann, all large roster teams.

Not statistical proof.  But should be more than enough to get a general trend.  The large team roster meat mills naturally look a bit stinky to recruits. 






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Who gives a F if the japs are listening to her blathering about women's issues?  
BamaHoHo

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Reply with quote  #179 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch
The difference is that for a player to transfer there has to be an agreement with the coach and stipulations are placed on where they can or can't transfer to. Bet the coach did not get an agreement with these players to be cut.


I'm talking about transfers in general.  Everyone here is "happy" for the player, but doesn't seem to care about the program they are leaving behind.  Now a coach is doing it and some people are pissed.  It just doesn't make sense.

FTR, I am in no way condoning what is being done by some coaches, but to think players wouldn't bail on a coach or program the first chance they get is naïve. 

Coaches hold the lions share of the cards.  There are only few athletes that have any power in negotiation.  

Recruiting at very young ages creates a situation where kids and families are forced to make decisions 5 years out.  This happens before they have really even get a lay of the recruiting landscape, before they find sites like this or heybucket.  Hell before they know what kind of kid they are going to become.

Then you have coaches that carry 30+ on their roster, bringing in 10-12 freshman every year, and graduating 4.  Then they want to hold out on a transfer, and not have anyone hold it against them.   

Compared to some programs that run 18, bring in 4-5 freshman and graduate 4-5 seniors.  They loose a kid about every 6 years.  These are much better situations all around.  You rarely hear of these programs holding out on a transfer request, because they are professionally run, and they use their recruiting to find viable candidates.  Once they realize it is not going to work out, they often come to this conclusion together and help the student and team move forward.

When you hear hold out requests it always seems to come from these overdone grist mill large roster teams.    Cause they are loosing Suzy, some pitcher that has performed above expectation at their level, and they have treated fairly crappy and the kid wants to move on.  Oh, then we are thinking about the precious program.  Out come the hand cuffs.  Going to take a year of that kids life.   

Well screw them coaches.  They are going to get brought up here, and it is going to cost them future recruiting potential.  In basketball the hold out coaches are avoided by good recruits.  Recruits know coaches who get out the handcuffs regularly are not coaches you want to be around.


Do you have any statistical data to back up your claim on "hold outs" coming from programs that carry 20-30 players?  USA has been brought up recently as having lost some players to "transferring up", and they only carry 18.

2 transferred last year from Tenn to Cal, no hold out.  Tenn - 21 players.
1 transferred from Tenn to ND, no hold out.
Pendley left AZ, no hold out, AZ was like 21 players at the time.
Stevens leaves Stanford, no hold out.  Stanford is always at 18 or so players.
Schreyer leaves Stanford, no hold out.  
Hoover left Stanford, no hold out.
Casey Stangel leaves Missouri, no hold out.

Now look at the cases with holdouts.  ULL Peyton Grantham, SDSU Danielle O'Toole, Arkansas Vann Stuedemann, all large roster teams.

Not statistical proof.  But should be more than enough to get a general trend.  The large team roster meat mills naturally look a bit stinky to recruits. 






What are you talking about?

TylerDurden

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Reply with quote  #180 
ULL released Donna B. at semester.

And I didn't know Vann Studemann played at Arkansas - was this before or after her coaching stints at Alabama and Miss. St?
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