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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #121 
Blue - What was the government's financial situation when Bush Jr. entered office, and what was it like when he left?  I truly don't want to argue this because folks get emotional, but what President, in the midst of a financial meltdown, declares war and then cuts taxes for the wealthy?  Is that good money management?  By the way, where did government money (our taxes) go during this "war" economy?  What are the bottom line results of the before and after of the Bush Jr. 8 years ?  Who made money - who didn't?  At the end of Obama's 8 years in office, we can make the same assessments in terms of handling of federal finances. What was it like at the begining and what was it like at the end.       Frank
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #122 
JG  your last post is laughable looking at Bush in 8 vs Obama even in 4.  Bush decreased taxes for everyon.  I love how libs act like they dont help the rich just as much as the repubs.  What a laugh!!!  
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #123 
Susan - It is only laughable through your eyes, filled with praise for anything Republican and hate for Obama and his "socialist" regime.  Your objectivity is seriously in question.  
With a simple "he reduced taxes for everyone" you would sweep away the degree of results for each class, and beyond that the very question of increasing spending drastically caused by going to a dubious war in  Iraq and at the same time cutting government income by reducing taxes, mostly aiding his wealthy friends, his self described "base", thus increasing government debt but increasing personal growth in wealth for some.  I didn't want to get into this obvious material, but you forced the issue by becoming personal and using your word "laughable".  It is your lack of anything resembling objectivity that is "laughable" - and unfortunate in discussion.    Frank

PS - I have read numerous times your complaints about government in general and Obama in particular.  I generally agree with your views about our government, but not necessarily about your views concerning Obama.  To me the jury is still out concerning whether his views enacted into law will aid or hurt my nation.  
By the way, I voted for Bush Jr. twice. What I would like for you to do, if you will, is list what you would like people in power to do to make our government situation better.  For example, how would you make government smaller?  

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #124 
JG you say you don't want to argue, but then list your views. Well I don't want to argue either so let me assess your points.
Bush inherited a recession brought on by the dotcom bubble bursting.
Bush had 9/11 drop in his lap, not due to his policies.
Congress declared war, with vast public support.
Bush tax cuts revived the economy. Look at govt rev in 2005, once the impact of tax cuts kicked in.
Look at root causes of financial meltdown, due to policies that pre-date Bush. Had Bush tried to change those policies he would have been excoriated by the left. Oh wait, he was anyway. His greatest mistake was in pandering to liberals in this regard.
I, and many others, made money. Apparently you didn't (and are still angry about it.)
Obamas economic policies aren't working. We would be in freefall if it weren't for all the QE, which weakens the dollar. It's a house of cards, and only a matter of time before it crumbles. Hopefully you have invested wisely this time around. Cheers.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #125 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
The root cause of the financial meltdown pre-dates Bush.


FIB - If this were the case, you would hope a talented GOP Administration might stop this ultimate tragedy. 

Joisey - This is an entirely different GOP and compassionate Conservatism are terms you'll never hear again.  I think the GOP should split and then we'll have the three Party system many clamor for.  By the way, half the GOP are now blaming "Bush", and his like, far more than we Democrats are.  I don't know the answer but Rove at least understands the problem.  Many on the Right can win a primary but not a national election.  If the House is the only branch of Government they want to win, then maybe they have no problem. 

sbmom - I'm sticking with my belief that most Conservatives think all Democrats are far left Socialist ideologues.  I'll stay this way until some can explain to me how Bill Clinton's policies differed from Obama's.

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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #126 
Perpetual and unecessary war and a crumbling economy is the legacy left by Bush.....He terribly damaged the Republican party and America....It remains to be seen if either will recover.... 
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #127 
JG I have criticized republican politicians lots.  I havent seen you criticize the libs who do the same exact thing for that greed you are always talking about. You guys just think you do good for poor.  Yeah, if you call enslaving them.  I dont like repubs much more tha dems these days but atvleast I'm honest and open.  You talk about greed and the sytem and you cant even be honest enough to acknowledge you voted for more of that BS.
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Susan
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #128 
Dewey, I just said Bush's appeasement of the left was his greatest mistake. The only difference between Clinton and Obama is that Obama is pushing more aggressively to entrench Socialism at the expense of the individual.
B10IS1

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Reply with quote  #129 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Dewey - In my mind, the Republican political Party should reexamine the theory and practice of "Compassionate Conservatism" and from there, in practice, show the American people something to vote for beyond cut taxes for wealthy people with the usual trickle down economic theory that never seems to get past mid management. They might also disengage themselves from the heavy duty corporate influences (lobbyists) in Congress. They might remember that "We the People" is not the top level of a capitalistic pyramid.     Frank
JG- your post is an example of poor messaging from the Republican party. The fact that many think all the Republicans stand for is lower taxes for the wealthy & sucking up to corporate  influences is sad. It shows how the party no longer stands for smaller government, states rights, personal responsibility, Christian values, strong education & choice, Lower taxes FOR ALL, strong military,etc.
Surely the Democrats have just as many ties to lobbyist [ unions,lawyers,hc,etc], more taxes, bigger Gov,etc. They have just done a better job of selling their party & what it stands for. Obama himself continues to paint one group or the other as being against the people & out to get them, be it gun owners,churches, banks, corporations, tea party,insurance companies, anyone who questions him ,etc. the " beat gos on " & the Republicans sit back & let him do it, in most cases falling into the trap he sets..He & those around him are MASTER politicians.
It is funny how the Democrats get the votes of the middle class, the blacks, the Hispanics, woman, the 18-24 age group & ALL have done worse under Obama, but are still convinced he is their savior.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #130 
It's really hard for anyone to have any confidence in the Republican party when you see how quickly, and easily, the tea party candidates sold out after they got elected....At the time, I was giving them a wait-and-see chance....I didn't have to wait long....They blended in and went undercover before you could say jackrabbit....
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #131 
it is incredible how many of us think we are so knowledgeable about politics, yet do not know what we are talking about. luckily the softball season is here
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #132 
True.......But, it is gonna be interesting to see what the Republican party is gonna do, now.....As they sit, they are fallen......They will try to reconstitute some kind of way.....I think they will join forces with another entity.....Their identity must change, somehow, as they have alot to flush.....The Democratic party's staus quo will work until something changes....
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #133 
Quote:
Originally Posted by B10IS1
JG- your post is an example of poor messaging from the Republican party.


B10 - There can be no doubt messaging is a great problem.  It's really hard when it comes to budgets, Medicare, and SS to know what the GOP message actually is.  Today the numbers came out and the deficit for this year will be around $845 Billion.  There are two Conservative members inside here that say this deficit should have been zero.  They wanted to take $800 Billion out of Federal spending that would have eliminated all non-discretionary spending and would still need another two or three billion to come out of old peoples SS checks or defense spending to get down to zero.  That's the kind of message that makes one wonder and doesn't bode well for the GOP. 

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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #134 
Well said B10.    

 Bluedog what is your recommendation for tea party politicians and repubs as to how to be more effective?

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Susan
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #135 
one way to delete our deficiency is stop giving money to other countries such as Egypt, Israel, etc.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #136 
Agree Hammer we should stop giving money to countries like Egypt.  If people in those countries need food, etc... we need to get private people to do it and stop giving thru govt.  Dewey I would be very surprised if deficits are not around 1 trillion once again as your increased taxes will decrease revenues, especially if you increase taxes even further.
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #137 
sbmom - We'll see, we have eight months to go.  Here is the article. My point was less about this year's deficit and more about how anyone could think we could have cut it all the way to zero.  Where would this money have been taken out of? 
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President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #138 
Dewey there is easily $800 billion in waste.  Panetta costing taxpayers $32,000 a weekend going back and forth.  GAO  conferences.  Bridges to no where.  Guarantee you you count cut that and not cut one penny in SS checks.  You just believe in growing govt, not cutting.
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Susan
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #139 
Quote:
Originally Posted by B10IS1
To that point; do you all remember how the media highlighted the military fatalities when Bush was in office? As I remember, many papers had a box up in the right hand corner with the total deaths...these days hardly a thing said by the media.
U.S. Military fatilities by year [ Congressional research report 12/2012 ]
01-11, 02-49, 03--45, 04-52, 05-98, 06-98, 07-117,08-155, 09-311, 10-499, 11-414 & 12-310.
Imo, it doesn't do us any good to blame the deaths on anyone,it would be best if we could end them all.


  exactly, hypocrites.  I remember the death count totals also and didn't think about that you don't hear such talk since obama has been in office.

To that point, without reading today's tit for tat, have the left justified drone strikes and killing innocent civilians, while condemning water boarding?  Thanks to Hannity for bringing it up

They have so many hypocritical views including like 10er said, Hispanics who are pro-life voting for the abortion prez.

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #140 

sbmom - Take out mandatory spending like medicare and SS, take out Defense and Homeland Security spending that total over $700 Billion, and your left with $800 Billion the Feds spend on all our Government operations.  We'd have to close Energy, Justice, Education, Commerce, Labor, Interior, and every other Department of Government to cut $800 Billion dollars.  Veterans, salaries, transportation, and so on all must end.  I trust you know that's not possible. 


__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
keepinitreal

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Posts: 22,683
Reply with quote  #141 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by B10IS1
JG- your post is an example of poor messaging from the Republican party.


B10 - There can be no doubt messaging is a great problem.  It's really hard when it comes to budgets, Medicare, and SS to know what the GOP message actually is.  Today the numbers came out and the deficit for this year will be around $845 Billion.  There are two Conservative members inside here that say this deficit should have been zero.  They wanted to take $800 Billion out of Federal spending that would have eliminated all non-discretionary spending and would still need another two or three billion to come out of old peoples SS checks or defense spending to get down to zero.  That's the kind of message that makes one wonder and doesn't bode well for the GOP. 


Another reference by dewey of "throwing granny off the cliff".. What is so funny is that he denies it and keeps right on doing it. 

Do you not understand by saying this repeatedly you are enforcing the belief by you left wing extremists, that conservatives want to "throw granny off the cliff" by cutting 2 to 3 billion "out of old peoples SS checks"?  Please tell me you see it one and the same.  If you can't say that then I understand how you have and obama have such a hard time understanding the other side.

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #142 
B10 - I don't know how constructive it is to bring up the death tolls from our two wars but, if we must, let's get the information accurate.  There were 4852 deaths up through 2008 and 1811 from 2009 to date.  That's 6663 total.  Your records were for the war citizens were more supportive of, Afghanistan, and omitted the deaths from the war citizens look less favorably upon, Iraq.  As a result of focusing on Afghanistan after taking office, casualties under Obama in Afghanistan are 1547 compared to 630 through 2008 under Bush.  It's heartwrenching just typing this.

keepinitreal - You're not following the conversation.  If you need to take $300 Billion more out of the budget and you only have Defense and Mandatory left, then you choose between lowering elderly benefits or defense.  I'm saying it can't be done.  Nobody is going to reduce benefits for current retirees so the quesetion remains, how do you cut more money once you have cut all Government spending that is not Defense or entitlements?  (After a little research I've learned non-defense discretionary spending is $800 Billion rather than the $500 Billion I thought it was.)  The message I was criticizing was making a proposal that was impossible and presenting it as feasable. 

Keepinitreal - You don't have to answer this question but do you think the vast majority of Liberals care if our citizens die in a terrorist attack and remember their loss?

__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Posts: 3,002
Reply with quote  #143 
dewey why cant you cut defense and homeland security.  Then you can cut fraud out of welfare and SSD  etc etc.... you just love to say no its easier to raise taxes.  Revenue is not the problem, but obamas gonna make it more of one because if his agenda continues to be put in place, the sequester is the only thing that will save us.
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #144 
sbmom - I think the sequester is $82 Billion, not $845 Billion.  I can see I can't convince you that cutting $800 billion in one year is not only impossible, but would probably put us in an economic depression as well.  My bigger point was to B10ISI and to agree how the message of the Republican Party, and its supporters, is muddled, unobtainable in many areas, and often a very tough sell to many of their own constituents, let alone the electorate as a whole.  Sbmom, if you took the time, you'd find large numbers of Republicans informing you that removing $845 Billion from our budget in one year is both unwise and undo-able. 
__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
sbmom1812

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Posts: 3,002
Reply with quote  #145 
Dewey I dont advocate cutting $800 billion in one yr but all I ever hear from you big govt people is you can increase taxes but you can make any significant cuts.  Its bull.  What you mean to say is you cant stop your croney crap and buying votes.
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Susan
pabar61

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Posts: 9,243
Reply with quote  #146 
Perhaps the U.S. should pull out of Chicago ?
 
Body count: In 2012 500 were killed (murdered) in Chicago.
 
More school age children shot and killed than the recent massacre in Connecticut.
 
221 killed in Iraq - AND Chicago has one of the strictest gun laws in the entire US.
 
President: Barack Hussein Obama
 
Senator: Dick Durbin
 
House Representative: Jesse Jackson Jr.
 
Governor: Pat Quinn
 
House leader: Mike Madigan
 
State Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike)
 
Mayor of Chicago: Rahm Emanuel
 
The leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
 
All who you can thank for the combat zone in Chicago.
 
Of course, they're all blaming each other.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
State pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
Cook County (Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois.
 
And he is going to 'FIX' Washington politics for us??? What a crock of dog squeeze......
 
George Ryan is no longer Governor, as he is now in the big house (prison). Of course he was replaced by Rob Blajegovitch who is... that's right, also in the big house. And Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. resigned a couple of weeks ago. That is because he is fighting being sent to... that's right, the big house.
 
The Land of Lincoln is now where their ex-governors make license plates.
 
But you know what? As long as they keep providing entitlements to the population of Chicago, nothing is going to change, except the state will go broke before the country does.
 
Oh Yeah, and don’t forget, don’t blame Republicans; there aren’t any!
keepinitreal

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Posts: 22,683
Reply with quote  #147 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey


keepinitreal - You're not following the conversation.  If you need to take $300 Billion more out of the budget and you only have Defense and Mandatory left, then you choose between lowering elderly benefits or defense.  I'm saying it can't be done.  Nobody is going to reduce benefits for current retirees so the quesetion remains, how do you cut more money once you have cut all Government spending that is not Defense or entitlements?  (After a little research I've learned non-defense discretionary spending is $800 Billion rather than the $500 Billion I thought it was.)  The message I was criticizing was making a proposal that was impossible and presenting it as feasable. 

Keepinitreal - You don't have to answer this question but do you think the vast majority of Liberals care if our citizens die in a terrorist attack and remember their loss?


Yes dewey, I am following the conversation, how typical of you.  My position is that in a round about way you are saying "throwing granny off the cliff" without actually saying "throwing granny off the cliff".  Tired of this tit for tat on that subject. 


Your 2nd point/question.  I believe liberals care about soldiers when it's convenient to do so.  I believe liberals have family members serve in the military and therefore in war zones.  I will not, or cannot say that one group of people would care more or less than the other, for their loved one's in the military.  I will say I have seen fewer republicans, conservatives or those on the 'right' if you prefer, protest and debate military involvement with the verve of liberals on matters of military and defense.

If you feel I avoided your question, you asked one that overall does not have 1 answer.  I feel yes liberals are upset when Americans die, but what that liberal wants to know from those murders is "What did we do now to piss the world off" and look toward our own nation for blame.


__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
keepinitreal

Registered:
Posts: 22,683
Reply with quote  #148 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
Perhaps the U.S. should pull out of Chicago ?
 
Body count: In 2012 500 were killed (murdered) in Chicago.
 
More school age children shot and killed than the recent massacre in Connecticut.
 
221 killed in Iraq - AND Chicago has one of the strictest gun laws in the entire US.
 
President: Barack Hussein Obama
 
Senator: Dick Durbin
 
House Representative: Jesse Jackson Jr.
 
Governor: Pat Quinn
 
House leader: Mike Madigan
 
State Atty. Gen.: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike)
 
Mayor of Chicago: Rahm Emanuel
 
The leadership in Illinois - all Democrats.
 
All who you can thank for the combat zone in Chicago.
 
Of course, they're all blaming each other.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
Chicago school system rated one of the worst in the country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
State pension fund $78 Billion in debt, worst in country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
Cook County (Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country.
 
Can't blame Republicans; there aren't any!
 
This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois.
 
And he is going to 'FIX' Washington politics for us??? What a crock of dog squeeze......
 
George Ryan is no longer Governor, as he is now in the big house (prison). Of course he was replaced by Rob Blajegovitch who is... that's right, also in the big house. And Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. resigned a couple of weeks ago. That is because he is fighting being sent to... that's right, the big house.
 
The Land of Lincoln is now where their ex-governors make license plates.
 
But you know what? As long as they keep providing entitlements to the population of Chicago, nothing is going to change, except the state will go broke before the country does.
 
Oh Yeah, and don’t forget, don’t blame Republicans; there aren’t any!



Nice job pabar.  Bet you only get crickets from the enablers and apologists on this one

__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #149 
keepinitreal - Feel free to keep trying to put words into my mouth but I have never said, nor have I ever felt, Conservatives or Republicans are trying to throw granny over the cliff.

As for my question, I don't think it could have been more clear.  The answer is yes, the vast majority of our citizens, both Liberal and Conservative, care deeply about those fellow citizens who lost their lives to various terrorist attacks and deeply remember their loss.  In fact, the vast majority of this Country's citizens feel the same pain for all our young men and women who have served and sacrificed.  You can try to convince others that this is not the case but I doubt you'll find much success.

__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
keepinitreal

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Posts: 22,683
Reply with quote  #150 
You asked me "what do you think"?  How can you presume to know what I think when I told you there was no 1, single answer for me.

dewey, how about pabar's idea on pulling out of Chicago.  With that loss of life experienced in Chicago shouldn't we pull out and cut our losses? 


Did you hear Leon Panetta admit that water boarding helped in the eventual capture of Bin Laden?  Bet you missed that one didn't you?

Do you feel using drones in the killing of civilians is any harsher than water boarding criminals?  


__________________
"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
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