Ultimate College Softball
Register Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #1 
Runner comes home on a tag play with less than 2 outs. Runner avoids the catcher swing tag with back door slide. Blue signals AND yells safe. Runner gets up and begins to walk back to dugout. Defensive coach yells tag her, blue then calls the runner out. 5 umps tell me that's correct mechanics to signal safe and yell no tag. I tell plate ump no one heard no tag, he said doesn't matter anyway, signal overrides everything. I tell him now she's really safe. Doesn't change call. Thoughts?
heavy

Registered:
Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #2 
I understand the confusion but technically the runner was still safe.
I would prefer no call at all in that situation which would alert me that the runner hadn't touched the plate
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavy
I understand the confusion but technically the runner was still safe.
I would prefer no call at all in that situation which would alert me that the runner hadn't touched the plate


I get she is safe but I two concerns:

1) how are they safe when there's nothing making them safe if they haven't touched the plate

2) if the signal trumps everything, how can you now change
MadDogsDad

Registered:
Posts: 2,178
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5


I get she is safe but I two concerns:

1) how are they safe when there's nothing making them safe if they haven't touched the plate

2) if the signal trumps everything, how can you now change


1- technically, the umpire is signaling the runner is safe in that the catcher missed the tag, not that she touched the plate. I think that is where the confusion lies. It is confusing but i would prefer the verbal to be loud and audible because if there are other base runners and say the catcher misses the tag, then throws the ball to another base, she could have no idea that he signaled the runner safe but still able to be put out. By throwing the ball, she loses the opportunity to rage the runner for missing the plate.

2- I understand how in this case the signal of safe means the tag was missed but the runner wasn't considered to have scored since she didn't touch the plate.

__________________
And if I don't like what you say then...

your kid sucks.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad


1- technically, the umpire is signaling the runner is safe in that the catcher missed the tag, not that she touched the plate. I think that is where the confusion lies. It is confusing but i would prefer the verbal to be loud and audible because if there are other base runners and say the catcher misses the tag, then throws the ball to another base, she could have no idea that he signaled the runner safe but still able to be put out. By throwing the ball, she loses the opportunity to rage the runner for missing the plate.

2- I understand how in this case the signal of safe means the tag was missed but the runner wasn't considered to have scored since she didn't touch the plate.


But how do you call safe when there is no safe to call, no tag but also no touch of the plate. Nothing to call yet. Once you signal safe you signal the end of the play. Watch any college or MLB game and on similar plays, umpires hold the call until the player touches the plate or the catcher tags the runner. My issue is calling safe and waiting literally at least 5 seconds for a tag and the.ln calling out.
MadDogsDad

Registered:
Posts: 2,178
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5


But how do you call safe when there is no safe to call, no tag but also no touch of the plate. Nothing to call yet. Once you signal safe you signal the end of the play. Watch any college or MLB game and on similar plays, umpires hold the call until the player touches the plate or the catcher tags the runner. My issue is calling safe and waiting literally at least 5 seconds for a tag and the.ln calling out.



Watch any dropped third strike anywhere and the HP ump will signal safe with no verbal. Or watch when a batter is nearly touched by a bunted ball, again the umpire will signal safe with no verbal. Another example is a batted ball that almost touches a runner, hands signal safe but no verbal. Same with the interference/obstruction rule on a batted ball.

The point is that the arms signaling safe doesn't end the play, it simply indicates the result of the action. In this case tag or no tag.

A call of safe, or even out doesn't necessarily end a play.

__________________
And if I don't like what you say then...

your kid sucks.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad



Watch any dropped third strike anywhere and the HP ump will signal safe with no verbal. Or watch when a batter is nearly touched by a bunted ball, again the umpire will signal safe with no verbal. Another example is a batted ball that almost touches a runner, hands signal safe but no verbal. Same with the interference/obstruction rule on a batted ball.

The point is that the arms signaling safe doesn't end the play, it simply indicates the result of the action. In this case tag or no tag.

A call of safe, or even out doesn't necessarily end a play.


I get what you're saying but when I questioned the umpire he told me the signal overrides everything. My point is when does a player know they are just kinda safe or really safe.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #8 
I think the ump was saying the signal overrides the verbal - or lack of a verbal.

Normal umpire mechanic when a player misses home is to delay 1-2 counts before signaling safe because their action/call is not supposed to alert either side the base/plate was missed. Runners are considered to have acquired any base they miss until the defense properly appeals it. 

12.22 Missing a Base or Home Plate
12.22.1 A runner must touch each base in order when she is advancing or returning to a base and the ball is in play. A runner, in the course of running the bases, is considered to have acquired the base if she touches the base or passes the base (within a body’s length). If she passes the base but has failed to touch it, she is considered to have touched it until the defense appeals she has missed the base. See Rule 7.1.1.
12.22.2 A runner is assumed safe until put out. If a proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.
12.22.2.1 If a runner misses home plate and the fielder misses or makes no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire should make a safe signal and declare “No tag.” If an appeal play is made (that is, by tagging either the runner or home plate), the umpire should then make a decision on the appeal.

BamaHoHo

Registered:
Posts: 709
Reply with quote  #9 
I know what it says above but if a runner doesn't touch home plate.  Shouldn't she be called out when she steps into the dugout?
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad
I think the ump was saying the signal overrides the verbal - or lack of a verbal.

Normal umpire mechanic when a player misses home is to delay 1-2 counts before signaling safe because their action/call is not supposed to alert either side the base/plate was missed. Runners are considered to have acquired any base they miss until the defense properly appeals it. 

12.22 Missing a Base or Home Plate
12.22.1 A runner must touch each base in order when she is advancing or returning to a base and the ball is in play. A runner, in the course of running the bases, is considered to have acquired the base if she touches the base or passes the base (within a body’s length). If she passes the base but has failed to touch it, she is considered to have touched it until the defense appeals she has missed the base. See Rule 7.1.1.
12.22.2 A runner is assumed safe until put out. If a proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.
12.22.2.1 If a runner misses home plate and the fielder misses or makes no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire should make a safe signal and declare “No tag.” If an appeal play is made (that is, by tagging either the runner or home plate), the umpire should then make a decision on the appeal.



12.22.2.1 I guess the umpire was right in his argument but I really think this rule should be looked at closer. No one in the heat of the moment listens or hears no tag, THEY SEE THE SIGNAL. Your basically calling something that hasn't happened (being safe but not really safe on a technicality). I just think it should be changed mechanically to no call until something happens, true out or safe. Thank you though for the information.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #11 
Going into the dugout just means the runner cannot go back and touch the plate.

The 1-2 count delay in signaling safe is to see if either the runner is going back to touch and/or the fielder is making an attempt to tag the runner.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad
Going into the dugout just means the runner cannot go back and touch the plate.

The 1-2 count delay in signaling safe is to see if either the runner is going back to touch and/or the fielder is making an attempt to tag the runner.


See that's where I have the problem, there was no delay it was an immediate safe call. Now you think about this as a player or coach, what would you think in that situation.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5
12.22.2.1 I guess the umpire was right in his argument but I really think this rule should be looked at closer. No one in the heat of the moment listens or hears no tag, THEY SEE THE SIGNAL. Your basically calling something that hasn't happened (being safe but not really safe on a technicality). I just think it should be changed mechanically to no call until something happens, true out or safe. Thank you though for the information.

I believe this rule is standard for baseball and softball, so there's no chance it's going to change. Bottom line is the participants are required to recognize when a runner misses a base or the plate without being cued by an umpire.

1.50 Safe
A declaration and/or signal by the umpire indicating that a runner is not out or has successfully taken possession of a base. A safe signal may also be given by an umpire to acknowledge having seen a potential catch or rule violation but determining no catch or violation occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5
See that's where I have the problem, there was no delay it was an immediate safe call. Now you think about this as a player or coach, what would you think in that situation.


If the umpire signaled safe right away on a potential tag-out, they were probably signaling about the missed tag attempt. If they waited 1-2 counts to see whether another attempt is being made, they're signaling the runner has provisionally acquired the base/plate, subject to an appeal.

Again, it is up to the participants to recognize when a base/plate has been missed. 
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad

I believe this rule is standard for baseball and softball, so there's no chance it's going to change. Bottom line is the participants are required to recognize when a runner misses a base or the plate without being cued by an umpire.


But isn't that there role, to provide information and "cues" about the play? If not then what exactly are they there for.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5
But isn't that there role, to provide information and "cues" about the play? If not then what exactly are they there for.

Their role is to impartially make calls without alerting participants to potential appeals or plays.

BTW, similar thing happens at first base. If the runner misses the base before the throw arrives, they're safe unless appealed.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #16 
But this umpire (and the umpires there) all said the no tag statement is to alert the players of the situation. Per your reasoning that alerts players to an appeal play which shouldn't happen. I'm not trying to pick a fight and know I'm fighting a losing cause but it just makes no sense to make a call on emerging that really hasn't happened.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad

Their role is to impartially make calls without alerting participants to potential appeals or plays.

BTW, similar thing happens at first base. If the runner misses the base before the throw arrives, they're safe unless appealed.


Plus every call impartially made is a cue to the situation.
Dewey

Registered:
Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #18 
Here's a similar situation.  With runner on first, batter hits ground ball to second.  Fielder reaches to tag passing runner but misses and umpire signals safe sign.  Fielder may now throw to second and get force out or throw to first.  Safe means no tag and does signal end of play.  Runner in this example can still be put out at second.
__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Here's a similar situation.  With runner on first, batter hits ground ball to second.  Fielder reaches to tag passing runner but misses and umpire signals safe sign.  Fielder may now throw to second and get force out or throw to first.  Safe means no tag and does signal end of play.  Runner in this example can still be put out at second.


Yes but there is no deception there, player knows they missed and there is a force play. At home it's not a force. Look I get the rationale, I just don't agree with it. It just seems to make more sense to not call something that hasn't happened.
Dewey

Registered:
Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #20 
I see what you're saying.  In my example, a missed tag really doesn't require a safe signal from the base umpire.  The absence of an "out" call should be sufficient for all involved.  Similarly, a stolen base, or a single being stretched into a double, where the SS misses a tag, doesn't need a "safe" call prior to the runner actually reaching the base.  The lack of an out call is all that's needed and once they reach the base, the safe signal can be given.  Sliding into home should be no different than any other base.  You've won me over.  [thumb]
__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #21 
As someone said earlier (fpdad I think) umpires are supposed to be impartial and give no indication of an appealable play, but isn't say "safe, no tag" creating a cue for an appealable play and creating a partialness to the defense?
Dewey

Registered:
Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #22 
Kind of.  Someone will have to explain to me why the "safe no tag" call would be preferred over a no call at all until contact with the plate is made. 
__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softball_rules5
As someone said earlier (fpdad I think) umpires are supposed to be impartial and give no indication of an appealable play, but isn't say "safe, no tag" creating a cue for an appealable play and creating a partialness to the defense?

No, because the "no tag" clarifies it just applies to the tag attempt - it has nothing to do with whether the plate was touched. 

Your post was discussed on another site with some very experienced umpires (i.e. Comp, MTR and Ajaywill) and they said the same things I did - http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/28714-safe-call-no-tag-then-out.html.
Dewey

Registered:
Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #24 
But why is the "safe no tag" call necessary or suggested?  Why not just make no call until they reach the plate?  I'm curious as to why umpires are instructed, if that's the case, to call it in this manner, (no I didn't click the link).
__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
Softball_rules5

Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad

No, because the "no tag" clarifies it just applies to the tag attempt - it has nothing to do with whether the plate was touched. 

Your post was discussed on another site with some very experienced umpires (i.e. Comp, MTR and Ajaywill) and they said the same things I did - http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/28714-safe-call-no-tag-then-out.html.


I read the link and only one really supports the position. Several said it was just as confusing to make the call. I stand by my statement, I've read the rule, I know it will not be changed, I think it's a bad rule, because your calling something that hasn't happened.
PDad

Registered:
Posts: 4,062
Reply with quote  #26 
They all agreed the umpire needed to signal safe on the tag attempt - period.

- Comp only had an issue with the ump saying "safe" instead of "no tag".

- MTR backed Comp's explanation and then clarified when he would augment with verbal "no tag".

- Ajaywill agreed the umpire had to make a call on the tag attempt.

The problem with umpires not making a safe call on the missed tag is players would have to wait on all non-calls to find out whether the call is safe or possibly a delayed out call.
Dewey

Registered:
Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDad


The problem with umpires not making a safe call on the missed tag is players would have to wait on all non-calls to find out whether the call is safe or possibly a delayed out call.


I'm trying but this is the part I'm not getting.  A no call simply means the runner hasn't reached the base yet.  Seems to me this is the way to call it.  When runner touches home plate, then signal "safe".

Edit:  For example, if the runner stealing second makes a good slide and avoids the tag, don't make a call if she's still two feet away from the bag.  Wait for a tag or a base touch and then make the appropriate call.

__________________
President Obama kept Republicans out of the White House for 8 years and added two excellent justices to the Supreme Court.  Those two things alone make him one of our greatest Presidents of my lifetime.
3leftturns

Registered:
Posts: 11,252
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
But why is the "safe no tag" call necessary or suggested?  Why not just make no call until they reach the plate?  I'm curious as to why umpires are instructed, if that's the case, to call it in this manner, (no I didn't click the link).
Agreed. There has to be a more clarifying sign than 'safe' to indicate a tag not being applied while the base has not yet been reached.

In the majors, you see no sign
3leftturns

Registered:
Posts: 11,252
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad
1- technically, the umpire is signaling the runner is safe in that the catcher missed the tag, not that she touched the plate. I think that is where the confusion lies. It is confusing but i would prefer the verbal to be loud and audible because if there are other base runners and say the catcher misses the tag, then throws the ball to another base, she could have no idea that he signaled the runner safe but still able to be put out. By throwing the ball, she loses the opportunity to rage the runner for missing the plate. 2- I understand how in this case the signal of safe means the tag was missed but the runner wasn't considered to have scored since she didn't touch the plate.
I don't think that 'not yet out' should ever get the safe sign.

Bizarre mechanics to me.

Do the ole NFL illegal man downfield tap of the head, or NBA 20-second timeout tap the shoulders.

Is it really that tough to clarify communication there?

In this viral video, to me the ump handled the situation correctly

daughtersbiggestfan

Registered:
Posts: 98
Reply with quote  #30 
The missed tag at the plate required a call.  A play was made, the tag was missed and there needed to be a call made on it immediately.  It had absolutely nothing to do with if the runner touched the plate or not. As has been stated, once a runner has passed a base they are considered to have legally touched it until properly appealed.  

There are plenty of situations where an umpire may signal safe but the runner is still subject to appeal.  The most obvious that comes to mind is a play at first base where the batter/runner beats the throw to first but fails to touch the base.  The runner has passed the base and is considered to have legally touched it and is safe according to the rules and the umpire should give a safe signal.  But, the runner is subject to appeal for missing the base if appealed prior to them returning to touch 1st.  A play was made on the batter/runner and a call has to be made, but that does not mean the call cannot be changed if the running infraction is appealed.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.