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bhblue

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Reply with quote  #91 
kir - I don't think this is an attack solely on Christianity.  I think it's an attack on any and all opposing voices. 

Some conservative Christians rant about others playing the victim card.  It hypocritical to me for them to claim victimization here.  At least based on my definition of hypocritical.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhblue
I think it's an attack on any and all opposing voices. 



OK, I thought about this for a whole hour before I decided to stick my head out there to be whacked but I gotta ask.  Is what I'm subject to around here an attack on an opposing voice? 
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #93 

Dewey - As with the Christians, I'm not prepared to allow you to claim vicimization either.  It should be understood that if someone "sticks their head out" to voice their opinion, someone with an opposing view is going to "whack" it.  You're a big boy, you can handle it.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #94 
bhblue - I wasn't trying to claim I'm a victim but I thank you for the clarification.  You're right, I'm a big boy and can handle it just fine.  I was just curious.
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #95 
I'm so aggrieved I just want someone, anyone to know. my buddy joisey can't handle my defense on his own. Glad blue weighed in and told you to put on your big boy pants.

Pre-party Merle haggard, I know what Merle would say.

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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #96 
While we wait for Indiana's "fix" to come through, let me ask if any here think Walker has become damaged goods thanks to his "citizenship" controversy?  Has he walked this back?
DietCoke

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Reply with quote  #97 
From Daily Kos -

Pence and the Indiana Legislature were warned by 30 expert law professors

by feduphoosier

 
I'll get straight to the point.  Pence and the Indiana Legislature were warned - in advance - that this RFRA was very different than the ones passed in other states.    

An 11 page letter dated Feb. 27, 2015 was sent to Rep. Ed DeLaney from 30 expert law professors in religious freedom and civil rights (12 from IU law schools) giving their opinion on Indiana's then proposed RFRA.

"In our expert opinion, the clear evidence suggests otherwise and unmistakably demonstrates that the broad language of the proposed state RFRA will more likely create confusion, conflict, and a wave of litigation that will threaten the clarity of religious liberty rights in Indiana while undermining the state’s ability to enforce other compelling interests. This confusion and conflict will increasingly take the form of private actors, such as employers, landlords, small business owners, or corporations, taking the law into their own hands and acting in ways that violate generally applicable laws on the grounds that they have a religious justification for doing so. Members of the public will then be asked to bear the cost of their employer’s, their landlord’s, their local shopkeeper’s, or a police officer’s private religious beliefs."
The Indiana Legislature pushed on with this bill anyway, very quickly, and before Hoosiers had time to realize what was happening.  I'm sure that was intended.  Pence then closed himself off from the people of this state, shut off his phones, and signed the bill in a closed room with a staged photo and no media present.  The media was not even allowed to interview the people in the photo.  

Read the letter above.  Pass it around.  Pence knew exactly what this bill meant, who it was targeting, and how it would be interpreted. He threw the whole state under the bus. Many of us here, including the Indianapolis Star, believe he has done this because he has ambitions to be president. Never let that happen.

 

4:02 PM PT: Update:  The page at Columbia Law School that links directly to this letter can be found here:  http://web.law.columbia.edu/gender-sexuality/public-rights-private-conscience-project/policy

It explains WHY this letter was written... it was apparently requested by someone in the Indiana legislature!  It does not however name names.


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"The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists."

-- Hannah Arendt, “The Origins of Totalitarianism” (1951)

CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #98 
Didn't read the entire thread and don't care to.  Christianity is under attack in America.  The Bible is being trashed.  Christians are, themselves selling out Christianity in lieu of Political Correctness.  Every Christian had better be keenly aware that Political Correctness will get them a trip to Hell.  So, whatever belief you have, you had better make sure that it is founded on Scripture and not on Political Correctness.  None of this is for me to say.  What this law does is simply give a Christian the ability to use the courts to protect their religious belief.  It is that simple.  Liberals can't stand that.  They have to force their beliefs on everyone. 

We are Rome and will be destroyed the same way.  We are now lacking fundamental values and Christian Values.  Americans are afraid to be labeled and then attacked by the Left.  Not in my time but not long after, people will hear of the great nation that was once America.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #99 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
Liberals can't stand that.  They have to force their beliefs on everyone. 



CoachB - Not me.  I thought it was good that young lady went to court to see why she couldn't be a clerk and wear her scarf.  How about you?

Let me ask you the questions I've been asking of others.  If we pass a law taking "God" off our currency, will you consider this to be a case of discrimination against Christians and other believers?  Secondly, if a Saudi restaurant owner doesn't want to serve women who fail to cover their heads, would you rule in his favor?

I shared some of my beliefs to refute your accusations against Liberals.  I hope you're willing to return the favor.
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #100 

Dewey, if we take "God" off of our currency, I don't think that God cares at all about that.  It is symptomatic of the Godless country we are progressing toward. 

Per that store owner, let them have their rules.  Patrons will then stop frequenting his place of business and he can rest firm in his beliefs.  He made a choice and they made a choice.  If I own a business and don't want to serve certain people, I made a business decision and will have to then suffer or benefit from the choice.  Chick Fillet had prospered for standing up for their Christian beliefs and, to be honest, every time I go by one and spend my money there I keep that in mind. 

Dewey, do you think you or the Government have the right to force me to do acts that will lead to my eternal damnation? 

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #101 
CoachB - I don't think anyone should force you into eternal damnation.  However, if you have to refuse to serve people on an equal basis to avoid that, please don't get into the service business.  The next guy's going to tell me if he serves divorced couples, women with uncovered heads, mixed race couples, or so on, he's going to be condemned.  There's no end to where this might go.  I'm sorry, but we can't go back to the days where restaurants can discriminate.

Finally, should that girl who wanted to wear her scarf but was not allowed, (maybe she was afraid of damnation too), have won her case?  It was Ambercrombie not hiring a girl who wanted to wear a head scarf when she worked.  Girl won her lawsuit.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #102 
Gov Huckabee just said a person shouldn't have to show up and deliver a cake with two men on top.  I couldn't agree more but he is totally misleading the audience as to the issue.  No baker will lose a lawsuit for refusing to such.
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #103 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Gov Huckabee just said a person shouldn't have to show up and deliver a cake with two men on top.  I couldn't agree more but he is totally misleading the audience as to the issue.  No baker will lose a lawsuit for refusing to such.


Dewey, that is what started this!  A lady who a gay guy used to bake cakes refused to make one for his marriage to another guy.  She was then sued and lost.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #104 
CoachB - No, a gay couple wanted to buy the same cake a baker offered to other couples.  Nobody would ever be required to put two men on top.
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #105 

So, you trivialize this Christian decision on what is on top of the cake and not the relavance of why the Christians refused to bake the cake.  Here are a couple of quotes from another site.  Unfortunately, they did not link where the quotes came from. 

“Our Christian faith is of utmost importance to us. It is how we run our lives, it is how we live our lives, it is how we bring up our families.

“Before God, this is something we couldn’t make.”


bluedog

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Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Dewey, if we take "God" off of our currency, I don't think that God cares at all about that.  It is symptomatic of the Godless country we are progressing toward. 


Our Creator doesn't need his name printed on anything related to fallen human beings, which we all are.....And, the Ten Commandments need not be in any courthouse.....As CoachB25 said, it isn't about any of that......With a Bible believer, the politics of an issue doesn't settle it......The Will of our Creator does.....

As CoachB25 so eloquently pointed out, worked just fine for Chick-fil-A.......
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #107 
CoachB - I hope I don't trivialize anything.  That's never my intention.  I fully understand your emotion behind this law.  I'm simply taking the position that business owners cannot discriminate against people, be they gay, black, divorced, etc.  Again, you aren't commenting on the other case we have a ruling on, the girl who wanted to wear a head scarf at work.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #108 
CoachB - Anyway, I think there's a distinct difference between buying the cake on page 4 that anyone can pick out or asking for a cake with two men placed on top.  The latter should and would not be required, imo.
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #109 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
CoachB - I hope I don't trivialize anything.  That's never my intention.  I fully understand your emotion behind this law.  I'm simply taking the position that business owners cannot discriminate against people, be they gay, black, divorced, etc.  Again, you aren't commenting on the other case we have a ruling on, the girl who wanted to wear a head scarf at work.


Then in order for a person to be a business owner in America they can not have their Christian values.  That is where we are headed.  Chose between being a Christian and having a business. 
CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #110 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Quote:
Dewey, if we take "God" off of our currency, I don't think that God cares at all about that.  It is symptomatic of the Godless country we are progressing toward. 


Our Creator doesn't need his name printed on anything related to fallen human beings, which we all are.....And, the Ten Commandments need not be in any courthouse.....As CoachB25 said, it isn't about any of that......With a Bible believer, the politics of an issue doesn't settle it......The Will of our Creator does.....

As CoachB25 so eloquently pointed out, worked just fine for Chick-fil-A.......


Bluedog, it is the difference between actually living a Christian life and/or living a worldly life.  So many times it has been hard to be a Christian and yet, all Christians who believe in the Bible and the Word of God know the difference.  Speaking just for me, it is the difference in being a person of Faith.  I could care less about denominations.  I read my Bible and know how it applies to my heart and soul. 
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #111 
Coach - you're spot on.  That is where we are headed.  The left has no use for Christianity because it doesn't square with their beliefs.  Their beliefs include abortion on demand, unlimited government funding for whoever doesn't feel like contributing to society, complete submission to anything related to Islam, and unlimited access to government services for anyone who enters this country legally or illegally.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #112 
Pabar - Overstated with a heavy bias.  Tch, tch.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #113 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
The left has no use for Christianity because it doesn't square with their beliefs. 


pabar - Once again you're wrong.  Your accusations don't include me.  You should ask me if you have doubts.  You guys aren't going to chime in about that young lady who wasn't hired because she wanted to wear her head scarf.  I think you know if you go against her, I'm going to accuse you of not caring about her religious beliefs.  I don't blame you for staying mum.

CoachB - My understanding is business owners made the same claims when they had to start serving black folks.

Edit:  Btw, 77% of Democrats say they never doubt the existence of God.  I also thought the black and Hispanic community were very religious.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #114 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
The left has no use for Christianity because it doesn't square with their beliefs. 


pabar - Once again you're wrong.  Your accusations don't include me.  You should ask me if you have doubts.  You guys aren't going to chime in about that young lady who wasn't hired because she wanted to wear her head scarf.  I think you know if you go against her, I'm going to accuse you of not caring about her religious beliefs.  I don't blame you for staying mum.

CoachB - My understanding is business owners made the same claims when they had to start serving black folks.

Edit:  Btw, 77% of Democrats say they never doubt the existence of God.  I also thought the black and Hispanic community were very religious.


I'm talking about Christianity and you're bringing up a woman in regards to Islam.  I don't see the left going after Muslims.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #115 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
The left has no use for Christianity because it doesn't square with their beliefs. 


pabar - Once again you're wrong.  Your accusations don't include me.  You should ask me if you have doubts.  You guys aren't going to chime in about that young lady who wasn't hired because she wanted to wear her head scarf.  I think you know if you go against her, I'm going to accuse you of not caring about her religious beliefs.  I don't blame you for staying mum.

CoachB - My understanding is business owners made the same claims when they had to start serving black folks.

Edit:  Btw, 77% of Democrats say they never doubt the existence of God.  I also thought the black and Hispanic community were very religious.


Will do.  Do you believe Jesus Christ is your personal savior?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #116 
pabar - I'm not sure.  I think so.  I catch myself talking to him at times.  I'm 64 and think about it even more.  But I'm as ignorant as it comes to religion.  I simply lived my life in a way I hope a God would appreciate.  I've had a lot of good things happen in my life so I tend to think somebody's looking over me.  I'm babbling because I just don't know.  Ask me if that girl should have won her court case.  I can answer that easier.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #117 
I say the left has no use for Christianity.
You say I'm wrong and that my accusation doesn't include you.  Naturally and because of that answer, I assume you're a Christian.
The crux of Christianity is that you accept Christ as your savior.  I ask if you do.
You say you're not sure.
That means you're not a Christian.
So my accusation, by logic, must include you.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #118 
Using that logic, I'm not a child so I have no use for children.  I don't know where you come up with this stuff.  I just told you I've caught myself talking to God.  I may not be using this stuff in the right manner but that seems like maybe I'm using it in some manner.  Anyway, enough of this in-depth analysis.

If you want to analyze others, explain how all those black and Hispanic religious folks are on the Left.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #119 
Getting back on topic I don't understand why these GOP politicians won't just tell it straight like some of you have.  They should stop being so coy and simply tell voters they think business owners should have a right to serve or not serve as they wish, assuming their religious beliefs support such decision.
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #120 
Can you be more specific as to Which GOP politicians you are referring to?
I'd like to look up what they've said and determine if your statement has any merit, or if it's just another outlandish attack on the GOP.

Does anyone know if there are any Democrats who have come out in favor of their constituents religious beliefs? Or is the entire Democratic Party throwing religion freedom under the bus?
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