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outofzone

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Reply with quote  #1 
When some of these early commits start to change their minds, will they have to now wait till September of their Junior Year to begin "negotiations" or, are they grandfathered in under the old rule because of their previous verbal? 
uga20

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
When some of these early commits start to change their minds, will they have to now wait till September of their Junior Year to begin "negotiations" or, are they grandfathered in under the old rule because of their previous verbal? 


If they change their mind they can't talk until jr year!!!!!!  If they are verballed you can't talk until your jr year.
lovsofbal

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Reply with quote  #3 
nothings in writing anyway until that NLI is signed their Senior year
DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #4 
that's what Travel coaches are for.  Or carrier pigeons.
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CoachZ

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Reply with quote  #5 
TB coaches (pitching coaches, hitting coaches, HS coaches and all of their ilk) are not allowed to discuss recruiting with a college coach in any way shape or form if it is before September 1 of the PSA’s junior year. Violation of that rule could result in termination of the college coach.
DunninLA

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CoachZ -- I am aware of the details of the rule.  Back channels will still be used.  Remember when this country tried to outlaw alcohol?  We now have that to thank for Nascar.

Or a verballed recruit could simply post on their facebook that they've changed their mind, are no longer committed to HappyU, and are open to other opportunities.  That unilateral communication falls within the new rules.

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Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachZ
TB coaches (pitching coaches, hitting coaches, HS coaches and all of their ilk) are not allowed to discuss recruiting with a college coach in any way shape or form if it is before September 1 of the PSA’s junior year. Violation of that rule could result in termination of the college coach.


CoachZ - I respect your opinion because I believe I know who you are and because I agree with many of your points. That said quoting the rule doesn’t make it true. I could have outed 5 coaches in the first week of the rule passing for going through a third party asking specific recruiting questions about PSAs. They are going through third parties now and it will only get worse over time. Many college coaches will follow it to the letter of the rule. Many will not. In the end the 3rd party thing is unenforceable unless a coach gets caught texting or emailing leaving a paper trail.
PH2

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Reply with quote  #8 
No coach is going to get caught unless they make a mistake, make it obvious, or until the coaches who are abiding by the rules and want them enforced start turning in other coaches.  I think early recruiting will basically turn into recruiting of transfers.  Everyone knows back channels are used to gauge interest before a player has a signed release in hand, but I'm not aware of any coach who's been formally penalized for violating that rule.
Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH2
No coach is going to get caught unless they make a mistake, make it obvious, or until the coaches who are abiding by the rules and want them enforced start turning in other coaches.  I think early recruiting will basically turn into recruiting of transfers.  Everyone knows back channels are used to gauge interest before a player has a signed release in hand, but I'm not aware of any coach who's been formally penalized for violating that rule.


Good analogy. Agreed.
DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
When some of these early commits start to change their minds, will they have to now wait till September of their Junior Year to begin "negotiations" or, are they grandfathered in under the old rule because of their previous verbal? 
I just noticed your use of the word "negotiations".   Given change to 4 year scholarships vs. the old system, I suppose the only negotiating to be done is with regard to % of scholarship, correct?

Which makes me wonder whether 4 year scholarships are legislated not to go down in % of grant in aid.  Are coaches currently allowed to take a 75% grant in aid scholarship in year one and lower it to 50% in year 2?

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Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextyear


CoachZ - I respect your opinion because I believe I know who you are and because I agree with many of your points. That said quoting the rule doesn’t make it true. I could have outed 5 coaches in the first week of the rule passing for going through a third party asking specific recruiting questions about PSAs. They are going through third parties now and it will only get worse over time. Many college coaches will follow it to the letter of the rule. Many will not. In the end the 3rd party thing is unenforceable unless a coach gets caught texting or emailing leaving a paper trail.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that it was that recruiters couldn't communicate with recruits through third parties. I don't think they're barred from "asking recruiting questions" of a third party about a recruit. Exchanging information is not necessarily communicating or sending a message. The goal should be to forestall early offers and commits, and not to impose a complete information blackout that would be impossible to enforce. One way or another, recruits are going to find out which schools are interested in them, and schools are going to find out which recruits are interested in them.

Where it will get dicey is when an 8th grader puts up on her Facebook page, "2023 Big State U Softball Commit". That'll raise a lot of suspicions. On the other hand, nothing says that a recruit can't make a "silent verbal" to a "secret offer". It'll just take one cheater to ruin it for everyone else.


Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #12 
Asking a travel ball coach if their student athlete is interested in their school is prohibited. That’s what I’m talking about.
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunninLA
I just noticed your use of the word "negotiations".   Given change to 4 year scholarships vs. the old system, I suppose the only negotiating to be done is with regard to % of scholarship, correct?

Which makes me wonder whether 4 year scholarships are legislated not to go down in % of grant in aid.  Are coaches currently allowed to take a 75% grant in aid scholarship in year one and lower it to 50% in year 2?


I used the word negotiate in a more sarcastic manner actually. 

As far as a potential recruit actually negotiating their scholarship...in the context of possibly a Pitcher being widely recruited..I guess it's possible but not likely. Besides, the good ones are getting 100% Athletic Money anyway. Any other player trying to "shop" their services will get a thanks but no thanks I'm guessing. Just too many good players. 

All Athletic money is spelled out very clearly in the initial NLI players sign. It will dictate what their percentage of Athletic money will be in each of their 4 years of eligibility. While a Coach can raise that percentage, they can never lower it as all Athletic money is guaranteed as long as a player is in good standing at any Power 5 School. 

I do know of players getting Athletic money their Freshman year, none their Sophomore then money their Junior year. Now how that money is dispersed year to year is anybodies guess. 
DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outofzone
 While a Coach can raise that percentage, they can never lower it as all Athletic money is guaranteed as long as a player is in good standing at any Power 5 School.  
That answers my question, thanks.

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PH2

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa


Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that it was that recruiters couldn't communicate with recruits through third parties. I don't think they're barred from "asking recruiting questions" of a third party about a recruit. Exchanging information is not necessarily communicating or sending a message. The goal should be to forestall early offers and commits, and not to impose a complete information blackout that would be impossible to enforce. One way or another, recruits are going to find out which schools are interested in them, and schools are going to find out which recruits are interested in them.

Where it will get dicey is when an 8th grader puts up on her Facebook page, "2023 Big State U Softball Commit". That'll raise a lot of suspicions. On the other hand, nothing says that a recruit can't make a "silent verbal" to a "secret offer". It'll just take one cheater to ruin it for everyone else.




This provides some context for the new rule:

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/8b48f6c9dedaacafd7dce2401/files/f34c49ec-bfb2-4849-a082-5f257f72074c/DI_Coach_Info_Sheet_FINAL.pdf

Pretty much no info is allowed to flow from recruiter to the recruit or 3rd party.  They can listen to a 3rd party's evaluation of a recruit, but not provide anything other than a Yes or No indication of interest.

As a general rule, you can receive as much information as you would like, but you cannot signal where a PSA is/will be on your list or your intent to pursue a PSA outside of the simple interest indication: YES or NO.
BigTenSoftball

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH2


This provides some context for the new rule:

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/8b48f6c9dedaacafd7dce2401/files/f34c49ec-bfb2-4849-a082-5f257f72074c/DI_Coach_Info_Sheet_FINAL.pdf

Pretty much no info is allowed to flow from recruiter to the recruit or 3rd party.  They can listen to a 3rd party's evaluation of a recruit, but not provide anything other than a Yes or No indication of interest.

As a general rule, you can receive as much information as you would like, but you cannot signal where a PSA is/will be on your list or your intent to pursue a PSA outside of the simple interest indication: YES or NO.



Right on.....the new legislation is not meant to deter evaluation of the athletes. It is meant to stop the early offers and verbals.
CrowHop

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Reply with quote  #17 
One thing is certain....if there's a rule, people will find a way around it.
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NadiaM

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Reply with quote  #18 
Where can I find the link to the 4 yr. scholarship rule? What was the change?
outofzone

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NadiaM
Where can I find the link to the 4 yr. scholarship rule? What was the change?


https://informedathlete.com/the-facts-about-guaranteed-multi-year-ncaa-di-scholarships/


Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #20 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PH2


This provides some context for the new rule:

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/8b48f6c9dedaacafd7dce2401/files/f34c49ec-bfb2-4849-a082-5f257f72074c/DI_Coach_Info_Sheet_FINAL.pdf

Pretty much no info is allowed to flow from recruiter to the recruit or 3rd party.  They can listen to a 3rd party's evaluation of a recruit, but not provide anything other than a Yes or No indication of interest.

As a general rule, you can receive as much information as you would like, but you cannot signal where a PSA is/will be on your list or your intent to pursue a PSA outside of the simple interest indication: YES or NO.


So, what about a recruiter telling a travel ball coach that he'll be at their games at a tournament? The travel ball coach could tell his team, "Coach Z from Griffon U will be at our games this weekend." If a previous commit is playing in those games and the coach they committed to is there for each game...

RELAX

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Reply with quote  #21 
The key is that you can't have a recruiting discussion with a 3rd party or the PSA themself. You can watch all you want!
PH2

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa



So, what about a recruiter telling a travel ball coach that he'll be at their games at a tournament? The travel ball coach could tell his team, "Coach Z from Griffon U will be at our games this weekend." If a previous commit is playing in those games and the coach they committed to is there for each game...



...then the coach can evaluate the player, which he/she is allowed to do, and there is no contact between them. I would think that passing information to players through the TB coach is not permitted (though how in the heck would anyone find out in this particular scenario), but if the coach shows up at a game the commit (or any player) is playing, then the coach can evaluate them.

In that scenario, I suppose the recruiter could make that information known to the TB coach, but the TB coach shouldn't pass it along.  He should just make sure his players are in the lineup to be evaluated by the recruiter.
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #23 
Like this, Big State U coach has a questioning session with Big Time Travel Coach. BSU "So you say Suzie has great work habits, great family, great year to year improvement, is still growing and she's a top ten SS offense and defense huh?" BTTC: "damn skippy, heck yeah". BSU coach: Well I can't say anything till she's of age but I base my recruiting on what I see and listening to those I trust. I trust you. I hope we will be on the phone early first legal day.

Very borderline. Illegal perhaps. WHO CARES!!!!

Every other college coach will NOT be honoring any verbal agreement and will be doing what everyone else is doing right up till after signing. Bottom line, decision will be made at the last minute when it should be. It's self enforcing legislation and there is nothing the cheaters can do about it. To quote George Peppard, "I love it when a plan comes together". [biggrin]


It will be quite a game of musical chairs and at the end of the day, I think more girls will be where they can succeed than with the current system since the decisions will be later. Every school is going to have a war room where they take players off the board and raise players based on need on signing day. 14U will become two years of development instead of exposure. GOOD!!!!!! 16U will be a place for the late bloomers to develop and 18U will be where all the college coaches will be. Hallelujah!!!

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Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH2


In that scenario, I suppose the recruiter could make that information known to the TB coach, but the TB coach shouldn't pass it along.  He should just make sure his players are in the lineup to be evaluated by the recruiter.


Interesting point. BTTC could even say, I think you would be a good fit there. I want to make sure BSUC sees you play. You are batting every fourth bat and play SS or CF. Again, same thing is happening for every other BSU,BPU etc so it doesn't matter.

Can BTTC say, yeah I recommend you going to BSU camp. Good school, program, coaching and all. Hmmm.

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Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H
Like this, Big State U coach has a questioning session with Big Time Travel Coach. BSU "So you say Suzie has great work habits, great family, great year to year improvement, is still growing and she's a top ten SS offense and defense huh?" BTTC: "damn skippy, heck yeah". BSU coach: Well I can't say anything till she's of age but I base my recruiting on what I see and listening to those I trust. I trust you. I hope we will be on the phone early first legal day.

Very borderline. Illegal perhaps. WHO CARES!!!!

Every other college coach will NOT be honoring any verbal agreement and will be doing what everyone else is doing right up till after signing. Bottom line, decision will be made at the last minute when it should be. It's self enforcing legislation and there is nothing the cheaters can do about it. To quote George Peppard, "I love it when a plan comes together". [biggrin]


It will be quite a game of musical chairs and at the end of the day, I think more girls will be where they can succeed than with the current system since the decisions will be later. Every school is going to have a war room where they take players off the board and raise players based on need on signing day. 14U will become two years of development instead of exposure. GOOD!!!!!! 16U will be a place for the late bloomers to develop and 18U will be where all the college coaches will be. Hallelujah!!!


Actually college coaches will be mostly at 16U. That is where the majority of players will be playing the Summer before Sept 1 of their Junior year.
Mark_H

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Reply with quote  #26 
Didn't work that way twenty years ago. Best players jumped from 14 to 18 and 16's were hopeful late bloomers who mostly didn't. Don't know why it would be any different this time around.
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Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H
Didn't work that way twenty years ago. Best players jumped from 14 to 18 and 16's were hopeful late bloomers who mostly didn't. Don't know why it would be any different this time around.


I think it might be different this time. Years ago 18u gold was everything but back then there wasn’t a Sept 1st feeding frenzy date or a limited Fall showcase season.. That changes things. Some elite kids may go directly from 14u to 18 Gold but I think most will play first year 16U the summer after their Sophmore year and them move to 18U for the Fall After they commit. Sept and Oct is going to look like the Oklahoma land rush with colleges packed with Fall visits and going down the recruiting lists as kids commit other places in a short time.

We won’t know how it is going to look for sure until it happens. But again my guess is colleges
spend most of their time watching rising Sophomores (to evaluate) and Juniors (to be ready to offer). Right now that would be second year 14s and first year 16s. One thing is for sure .... the kids will play where the coaches go and the coaches will go where the best kids are playing.
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #28 
Maybe labor day will become new end of summer travel season
Nextyear

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Maybe labor day will become new end of summer travel season


As this goes forward you will see every school add a Labor Day softball camp so that they will have as many off their top recruits on campus just after Sept 1.
PH2

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H


Interesting point. BTTC could even say, I think you would be a good fit there. I want to make sure BSUC sees you play. You are batting every fourth bat and play SS or CF. Again, same thing is happening for every other BSU,BPU etc so it doesn't matter.

Can BTTC say, yeah I recommend you going to BSU camp. Good school, program, coaching and all. Hmmm.


I don't see why not.  Presumably the college coach can't tell the TB coach anything beyond Yes or No that they are interested, so in telling the player to attend a camp, the TB coach isn't passing any info directly from the college coach to the player.  The TB coach is just providing recommendations based on their knowledge of the situation.  You can't legislate against reading between the lines...
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