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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #1 
https://realclimatescience.com/2017/02/nasa-noaa-climate-data-is-fake-data/

Question: If global warming is real, why is there a need to fabricate the data?

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #2 
And yet another:

World Leaders Duped Over Manipulated Global Warming Data


http://www.thegwpf.com/world-leaders-duped-over-manipulated-global-warming-data/

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #3 
Last thing the Climate Hoaxers needed on the tails of their devastating defeat in November was an NOAA whistleblower destroying their fake "evidence."

And yet here we are. [rofl]

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woody

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Reply with quote  #4 
Which of the Libs was the die hard GW defender? Was it DC? Used to always battle forth with cut and paste graphs and studies.
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pabar61

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Reply with quote  #5 
I couldn't sleep last night and part of it was trying to understand the impact of 7 billion people on the planet.  I'm willing to entertain the idea that humans play a part in the changing climate but only if supported by facts, evidence and reason.

When I think about 7 billion people, I try to get a sense for that number in proportion to the size of the planet.  If each person takes up roughly two square feet of space, you could essentially jam every person on the planet into a space the size of the city of Los Angeles or maybe a tiny bit more.  Los Angeles.  The idea that humans can have an impact on the planet makes no sense to me.

Another thought.  The planet has been in existence for 4.5 billion years.  (Creationists, just cut me some slack on this.)  The industrial age has been in existence for about 200 years.  Stated in terms of a year, that means the industrial revolution has been in existence for the past 1.4 seconds of that full year.

Yet, it's settled science that global warming/climate change is man-made.
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
I couldn't sleep last night and part of it was trying to understand the impact of 7 billion people on the planet.  I'm willing to entertain the idea that humans play a part in the changing climate but only if supported by facts, evidence and reason.

When I think about 7 billion people, I try to get a sense for that number in proportion to the size of the planet.  If each person takes up roughly two square feet of space, you could essentially jam every person on the planet into a space the size of the city of Los Angeles or maybe a tiny bit more.  Los Angeles.  The idea that humans can have an impact on the planet makes no sense to me.

Another thought.  The planet has been in existence for 4.5 billion years.  (Creationists, just cut me some slack on this.)  The industrial age has been in existence for about 200 years.  Stated in terms of a year, that means the industrial revolution has been in existence for the past 1.4 seconds of that full year.

Yet, it's settled science that global warming/climate change is man-made.

Yep.  and Using dewey leftist logic, if you question the religious beliefs, then you are of course out to destroy the world.

For me nothing in any of this stops me from having a desire to have as much solar, wind as is financially feasible. Also continue to encourage companies through investment and through purchasing decisions to make smart economic and environmental decisions.  WMI switching their entire fleet over to LNG is a great example.  Not sure why Seattle Metro bus has not had the foresight. but hey, they are too busy putting a gun to everyone elses head to fix their own issues. 

I also think that we need to continue to push our core physicists, mathematicians to look hard at the problems of more efficient solar panels, greater battery storage, and hydrogen cars.  These are great physics problems and the country that solves them will obtain a significant leadership.

Solar and wind continue to increase our energy independence.  That does not mean we have to have an activist government pushing coal companies out of business.   I think we should charge countries a premium for any coal we ship to them.  I would rather us keep those hydrocarbons stored for potential future needs if possible. 

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TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #7 
It would be great if the GOP would get the gvt out of the way and unleash the raw power of American Capitalism on alternative energy.

The results would be amazing. The power of the American dream is our greatest resource.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #8 
Alternative energy won't work in America..........Won't take hold...........Oil & gas is the ticket and always will be..........100%........
Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Alternative energy won't work in America..........Won't take hold...........100%........





I do think it has its place to an extent. I know a guy that launched a small start up last earth day. They are manufacturing battery powered localized delivery trucks. He said the average route was less then 80 miles and they charged over night to full power. I can see something like that taking hold.



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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #10 
Only a small place..........
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #11 
Well boys, global climate change is happening. I go with two angles, so bear with me before you spank me....

1-The climate is changing for the worse-whether that is solely geological, or geological and being exacerbated by humans burning fossil fuels, only the big man upstairs truly knows. To me, I know I don't have enough time above ground left to care why, I just believe it to be fact.

2-There will be no 'transition' to any scalable alternative energy source. The dog is correct that, for all meaningful purposes, humans will continue to cling to fossil fuels...but he is incorrect that it will last; finite resource + unlimited demand = exhaustion of resource. So the fossil fuels will effectively 'dry up' when the true costs of extracting a barrel exceeds the benefit of that barrel. That will occur shortly. All alternatives, solar/wind/hydro/hydrogen/ will be farts in the wind, never scalable to sustain our current lifestyles. We should have built small regional nuclear plants starting in the 70's. We should rebuild and/or build a national rail system and coal-driven locomotives. We should be using the remaining fossil fuels solely for creating some sort of regional/sustainable power generating facilities throughout the US.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #12 
The Bible tells us we will always have our seasons............Global warming is a fraud..........

And, we'll never run out of oil & gas..........The earth is only 4 - 6 thousand years old and the oil pools were put in place when the earth was created.........There is enough to sustain our needs till Jesus returns and destroys this earth...........

The Bible gives us all the answers we need to know..........
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #13 
Dog, I hope you don't mind if I hedge my bet, you know, just in case your theory proves to be myth and not fact. btw the bible thread needs some freshening up.
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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyGrayce
Well boys, global climate change is happening. I go with two angles, so bear with me before you spank me....

1-The climate is changing for the worse-whether that is solely geological, or geological and being exacerbated by humans burning fossil fuels, only the big man upstairs truly knows. To me, I know I don't have enough time above ground left to care why, I just believe it to be fact.

2-There will be no 'transition' to any scalable alternative energy source. The dog is correct that, for all meaningful purposes, humans will continue to cling to fossil fuels...but he is incorrect that it will last; finite resource + unlimited demand = exhaustion of resource. So the fossil fuels will effectively 'dry up' when the true costs of extracting a barrel exceeds the benefit of that barrel. That will occur shortly. All alternatives, solar/wind/hydro/hydrogen/ will be farts in the wind, never scalable to sustain our current lifestyles. We should have built small regional nuclear plants starting in the 70's. We should rebuild and/or build a national rail system and coal-driven locomotives. We should be using the remaining fossil fuels solely for creating some sort of regional/sustainable power generating facilities throughout the US.


Agree, we should not have abandoned nuclear.  Although complex, it is possible to build safe nuclear reactors.  Safe Nuclear provides clean effective base load power with minimal overall environmental impact.   If we would have kept developing it, it would be even safer and cleaner (reprocessing reactors, etc) by now.  That ship sailed.  Attempts to get it the ship to turn around and come back have been futile to date.  Thanks to China Syndrome getting released right after 3 Mile Island disaster, quickly followed by Chernobyl.  Just as people were getting comfortable the tsunami in japan reminded us that these sites are susceptible to natural disaster, and need some great engineering to protect against natural disasters.  

32.5% of electrical generation in US comes from Nuclear+Wind+Hyrdo+Solar+BioMass, the non-hydrocarbon sources.  That number is a fairly steady upward climb.  It is not going from 32.5 to 70% next year, but it could go to 34, 35 or even 36%.  2-4% per year is decent whack at reducing hydrocarbon emissions.  We need to not only quit tearing down damns, but build additional damns.  Even though this might be hard on certain fish species, the benefit in emissions and hydrocarbon reductions greatly outweigh the impact on the environment.

There are some super simple things we can do today that will greatly improve our hydrocarbon usage.  Shifting all trucks in the US to LNG, or major fleets to LNG.  Natural Gas that is not consumed is often flared off, to facilitate oil extraction.  So we pay double for that Natural Gas.  Natural Gas burns hell of a lot cleaner than gas or diesel.  25% of US Natural Gas is flared off currently, a great improvement over the 100% that was back in the 50's.  Russia and Saudi's flare off huge amounts of gas as well. 

Yes, it would take fundamental breakthroughs in physics of electrical storage, or electrical generation (wind, solar, geo, waves, etc)  to change that curve by much.  Even though that may take time and effort, fundamental investments in physics like this has returned great benefits to our society.  Government funded research like this keeps us ahead of the rest of the world. 

While I do not believe in necessarily that Peak Oil is right around the corner.  Every prediction on its coming has shown to be false over the last 60+ years.  Always new deposits and new techniques (oil sands, safe fracking, etc.) have been able to push peak oil out that entire time.  Definitely hydrocarbons have limits and the more of them we can store for the future the better.  Also we reduce impact on our environment, and that is a good thing.  So we should be actively pursuing strategies that reduce gas and oil consumption, favoring more Natural Gas, and even more Non Hydrocarbon sources.



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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Dog, I hope you don't mind if I hedge my bet, 


Grayce, you certainly have the free-will to choose not to believe the Words of the Bible..........But, it won't be a hedge.........Only two groups of people in the end..........You'll be in one of 'em..........And in only one.........
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #16 
Why do the Thumpers always like to end their replies with that threat of eternal fire? A strange mythology indeed.
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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #17 
Grayce, I'd be interested in hearing what you think eternal fire in the Bible context  means?
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #18 
Meet me over on the bible thread. I feel bad that I'm scrogging Griz' warming thread.
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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #19 
Sure, answer my question on that thread........
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

 

32.5% of electrical generation in US comes from Nuclear+Wind+Hyrdo+Solar+BioMass, the non-hydrocarbon sources.  That number is a fairly steady upward climb.  It is not going from 32.5 to 70% next year, but it could go to 34, 35 or even 36%.  2-4% per year is decent whack at reducing hydrocarbon emissions.  We need to not only quit tearing down damns, but build additional damns.  

-All those alternatives utilize tremendous amounts of fossil fuels, in ways obvious, and not so obvious.
-All are not scalable to sustain any semblance of an 'industrial civilization.' Soon we will have 8 billion mouths to feed and water.
-Dams are global killers for temporary benefits.

There are some super simple things we can do today that will greatly improve our hydrocarbon usage.  Shifting all trucks in the US to LNG, or major fleets to LNG.  Natural Gas that is not consumed is often flared off, to facilitate oil extraction.  So we pay double for that Natural Gas.  Natural Gas burns hell of a lot cleaner than gas or diesel.  25% of US Natural Gas is flared off currently, a great improvement over the 100% that was back in the 50's.  Russia and Saudi's flare off huge amounts of gas as well. 
Yes, it would take fundamental breakthroughs in physics of electrical storage, or electrical generation (wind, solar, geo, waves, etc)  to change that curve by much.  Even though that may take time and effort, fundamental investments in physics like this has returned great benefits to our society.  Government funded research like this keeps us ahead of the rest of the world. 

--I already ran down why this is not feasible in a prior thread. Storage, transportation, corrosion, lack of 'energy value' as compared to oil. Another 'tech will save us' dream that is doomed to fail.

While I do not believe in necessarily that Peak Oil is right around the corner.  Every prediction on its coming has shown to be false over the last 60+ years.  Always new deposits and new techniques (oil sands, safe fracking, etc.) have been able to push peak oil out that entire time.  Definitely hydrocarbons have limits and the more of them we can store for the future the better.  Also we reduce impact on our environment, and that is a good thing.  So we should be actively pursuing strategies that reduce gas and oil consumption, favoring more Natural Gas, and even more Non Hydrocarbon sources.

"Always"? Oh boy. There have been no new significant discoveries of liquid pools of oil for a while. Here's a good perspective-the recent Midland, Texas oil 'discovery'  in 2016 has been proclaimed as proof of ever-lasting oil. It's actually shale based, and will require destruction (fracking) on a major scale to be extracted. Best part-it's 20 billion barrels worth. In 2015 the US used 8 billion barrels during the year. So in July of 2019, Midland Basin is empty, and the Midland basin is a cemetery. 

You know I love you, UWa. I still gotta claim that none of this is sustainable or realistic, and it horrifies me that the world is unwilling to face it and make hard decisions. The crash is going to be biblical.



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pabar61

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Reply with quote  #21 
I believe in solar.  But if I own a Tesla and I charge it at my home using electricity generated from a coal-fired plant, I'm harming the environment more than if I drove a Hummer.
EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
I believe in solar.  But if I own a Tesla and I charge it at my home using electricity generated from a coal-fired plant, I'm harming the environment more than if I drove a Hummer.


Roger that. Follow that logic and you can unravel the whole 'energy independence' myth. At the risk of doing a dewey and repeating myself ad nauseum.....

Finite Resource (fossil fuels) + Unlimited and endless demand = Resource Exhaustion. There will be no more cars for the masses in the 'near' future. Ponder just that fundamental paradigm shift, and the effect that has on our economy, food acquisition on the family level, and education systems.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #23 
Bull!

And, answer my Bible question.........
uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #24 
We are not really in disagreement.  Just timing.  You think eminent must return to caveman lifestyle as of yesterday.  I think in 50 years, maybe a bit longer, but still going to happen.  And yes, the crash will be epic when it comes.

Yes, all alternatives use fossil fuels.  So stretching those fossil fuels as precious resources is important.  

Using the NG instead of flaring it off, has already lengthened all of our resources drastically, there is probably another 30-50% stretch in resources by just getting capture, distribution and consumption of NG built out. 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=oil+discoveries+2016 
shows a lot more than the midland discovery.  In fact for the last 4-7 years we have been finding oil at a much faster rate than consumption.  This is largely due to the ability to algorithmically search satellite data, and there are definitely some new sensors coming online that will improve that ability.  Of course those techniques will eventually run out as well. 

Anyway none of that still does not take away from an overall desire to continue to find ways to reduce consumption.  Pushing people into urban centers, mass transit, ... loads happening.  It all can happen faster.  Teslas, hygrogen cars, non Hydrocarbon sources, can all add up as well.  

Not that I have faith in humanity, i have been here watching Dewster for way too long.  Just that I think the net sum of efforts adds up to significant over time.  

I am not sure what else can be done.  Create a compound in the woods, hoard fuel there? 


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EarlyGrayce

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Reply with quote  #25 
lol and see, this is what dewey can never comprehend, that two people can discuss differences of opinion with logic and perspective.

Anyhoo, not sure where you thought I meant TOMORROW SHTF. I'm good with 50 years, although I'm thinking the ratcheting down and impending end of fossil fuels as we know them will be clear to everyone by 20 years.

And of course, you know I'm advocating me and you and ours and a few others hunker down at the end. There will be no need to travel outside of community.

btw I do love the idea of pushing the masses to the urban areas and mass transportation over the next few years. Make for and easier die-off.

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woody

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Reply with quote  #26 
So, what percentage does Hydro represent in the wind, solar, grass burning, hydro scenario? Lots of dams that have been producing electricity for a long time. Please don't try to lump solar and wind and switch grass burning power in with hydro when trying to compare with natural gas and coal. Not even close, and even somewhat disingenuous.
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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
So, what percentage does Hydro represent in the wind, solar, grass burning, hydro scenario? Lots of dams that have been producing electricity for a long time. Please don't try to lump solar and wind and switch grass burning power in with hydro when trying to compare with natural gas and coal. Not even close, and even somewhat disingenuous.

Hydro 6%
Biomass, Goethermal, Solar, Wind - 7%

Not sure why you say it is disingenuous to put Hyrdo in the renewable.  I think it is liberal whackos that want damns off the renewable list.  The rain falls, the reservoir refills.  fuc7ing renewable energy. 

yes, yes, some waterways are impacted by it.  It is clear that hydrocarbons can only last so long, that they emit CO2.  While I do not think global warming tipping points blah blah blah are right around the corner.   It is just smart to realize that hydrocarbons are super important, and create more CO2 than we would like. 

I know some on the conservative side that think renewable will never to anything.  They are up to 7% of our production.  And that continues to grow every year. 

Our sunny southwestern states are making heavy moves into commercial solar and wind.  



https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3


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mikec

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Reply with quote  #28 
Hope you like your dove extra crispy

Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist


Our sunny southwestern states are making heavy moves into commercial solar and wind.  


woody

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Reply with quote  #29 
Go ahead, take tax subsidized solar and wind. When solar and wind can compete in an open market with Hydro, Natural Gas, and Coal, then the free market will invest in Solar and Wind. I just ask that if we are having a discussion about having "renewable energy" displace Natural gas and coal, that Hydro be taken out of the mix. Solar and wind energy are not competitive now. 100 years from now, maybe. When we reach that point, I would prefer our market, and not politicians and tax models decide who wins and loses.

I say this because I as an electrician saw the amount of tax money poured into solar and wind. I also know that solar and wind for now cannot compete with natural gas without heavy subsidies. It's just a fact. I have seen people install huge solar arrays on private property, and even with tax credits, they will be lucky to break even by the time the solar panels degrade, and the batteries are replaced 3-4 times. The energy companies can produce gas fired electricity cheaper than they can power their home with solar.

Now if you want to build an 800-1200 sq ft cabin, and don't mind running a gas or propane fueled generator to run an AC unit, maybe. Believe me, I have built electrical systems for off the grid homes. The cost of the system to power a small home in anywhere but an ideal 72 degree climate is large. Just building and servicing an acceptable housing unit for the battery bank is a large expense. Start adding in solar powered wells for deep water below 500' and you are talking real money. This means harvesting grey water, and using water storage silos, and additional pumps and if you want to try geo thermal AC it's iffy, and expensive. Add to that powering a low voltage aerobic septic system with an air compressor, solids grinder, and lift pump. Let me know when this is all competitive with cheap natural gas, coal, and hydro electricity production. I guess if you are willing to give your neighbor a large check in the mail for his green attitude, it might work out for both of you.

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #30 
Here's some libtard irony for ya:
Libtards believe in evolution yet they live in fear of global warming? If evolution is true, wouldn't they believe that we will evolve into creatures that can handle a little more heat?

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