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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #1 

When you think about it, it's hard to understand why our political discussions get so abrasive.  I'd like to believe that most of these different threads are simply started to make a case for a particular political ideology.  Of course, many threads manage to start with a post emphasizing a "jab" against one side rather than simply practicing this act of persuasion.  That invites others to do the same and away we go.  I'll never understand the reasoning of such an approach and can't begin to think it brings any results. 
 
We've all agreed that we are unlikely to change the opinions of our regulars who post here and our only goal should be to explain and make a case for our political views along with countering those made by our opponents.  That's fair and it need not get so personal.  In most instances, I've tried to use my posts to persuade our readers, who may be undecided, to think Democrat.  That's been my primary intention and I'll work harder in the future to sharpen that focus. 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #2 

The Constitution has been the subject of the day and I'll start this new thread by adding my two cents.
 
I'm not one who believes this whole Tea Party movement was born out of Constitutional issues or deficits.  I do think there are Tea Partiers who were disgusted with the entitlement Rx program Bush passed, along with his deficits, just as they are disgusted with the new health care program and deficits under Obama.  They're for real.  But it's my opinion that the vast majority of those who have jumped on the bandwagon have simply adopted Government deficits and the Constitution as new and well sounding themes to be used in their campaign to elect Republicans and regain the office of the President.  Now why do I think that?
 
If you remember when President Bush took office, it required the Supreme Court to interfere with the efforts of a State trying to resolve their own election issues.  Many people found that to be one of the greatest "end arounds" of the Constitution ever.  Bush took office and soon followed with tax cuts and spending that resulted in changing our budget surplus right back into deficits.  To his credit, he too had to handle a tragedy, 9/11, and had to stimulate the economy, (sound familiar), but did so with tax cuts for the wealthy which many on my side felt did little good towards stimulating.  On top of this, we as a Country debated torture, invasion of privacy, imprisonment of combatants, hidden energy negotiations, outing of a CIA agent, and other questionable uses/abuses of power.  If ever a group concerned with our Constitution would be born, the time was certainly ripe then.
 
It's this writer's opinion that what is going on today, with regards to "Tea Party", is nothing more than a passionate Party who doesn't like the man we have in office.  Some don't like his name and some don't like his level of experience.  A few don't like his race and some don't like the church he attended.  There are even those who don't like the fact he is from Chicago.  And of course, many don't like the policies he's pursuing.  But most importantly, those on the Right have real trouble with a President with a "D" after his name.
 
After decades of talk radio and many years with the highest viewed cable network, Republicans must have been flabbergasted that they lost in 2008.  If you remember, within two years of Clinton being elected, it wasn't a "Tea Party" but a "contract with America" that was born.  Things have not changed that much today and, if you're old enough, you'll remember the immediate and continued efforts to weaken and/or drive President Clinton out of office from the day he was elected.  Again, sound familiar?  Republicans don't take losses lightly and this time is no different.  My point here isn't to belittle the fact that those on the Right organize and become quite passionate when they lose, or to suggest those on the Left take losses any easier, but to suggest the "Constitution" issue isn't the primary explanation of our current times.  If we have any readers searching for their political identity, that's the point I hope you take away from my post.  Liberals fully support the Constitution and should have no problem with the new Congress reading it aloud.  That said, I do think it is being used by a few folks.  If I'm wrong, why in the heck did it take so many, so long, to bring that important document front and center?  Someone is going to have to explain to me what changed between 2005 and 2010.
 
Again, this is one man's opinion to be shared with any readers who care.  In any post, there will be some generalizations made and I in no way want to suggest my beliefs apply to each and every person of a particular Party.  Now feel free to rebut, challenge, or share your thoughts.
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #3 
Dewey, I don't have time to address your whole post but I will address 3 quick points.
1) There were several independent recounts of the Florida votes done by liberal groups including USA Today. Literally every single one produced the same result, that being, Bush won. Not to mention, if the media had not called the state for Gore early, which they later recanted, several thousand voters in the more conservative districts of the panhandle would have voted. Many of them stayed home after the media called it for Gore thinking that their vote would not matter. Get over it.
2) The special prosecutor knew the first week of his investigation that Richard Armatage was the one who outed Valerie Plame. He kept the investigation going because he was getting paid well and he wanted to try to get Rove in spite of his innocence.
3) Maybe you are not smart enough to realize when you are insulting people, but to accuse thousands of Tea Party members of being disingenuous and hypocritical is pretty insulting.

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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #4 
GrizzlyFan - I'm not so much addressing who won the election as I am addressing the interference of the Supreme Court with the State of Florida's process.  There are many folks who believe that went against our Constitution.  I was making the point that many issues were considered constitutionally suspect and yet there was no uproar.  What in the last two years has been more suspect than that Florida decision?  In any event, the Supreme Court settles these issues so I don't see the point.  This Country operates according to the Constitution and, if it wavers, the Courts correct it.

As for insulting.  The last couple of days have seen an implication that Democrats do not care about the Constitution.  The fact the Tea Party is rallying against Democrats is another example of the same implication.  The Right has said Democrats are trying to make folks dependent on the Government and the Right often says Democrats are trying to redistribute wealth.  I find these all to be opinions, wrong ones in my mind, but if we are going to take such generalizations and accuse us all of being personally insulting, then there's no way we can continue to discuss these issues.  I think your criticism in this case is unfair.  
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #5 
I'm going to take a little different slant on the subject of our differences.I was thinking the other night about what is troubling in having our differences is the strident tone of our discussions,both public,private & even on sites like UCS.
In my attempt to complete my entire reading of the Bible[my 4-5th try],I read last night that it tells us to avoid " arguments & quarrels", because they are " unprofitable & useless" & rather respond to one another " with gentleness & respect". No matter what our views are, we are called upon to to deal gently & lovingly with each other, without judging or badgering one another. Most likely, reducing others to a label keeps us from truly knowing, understanding & learning from one another.
Trying to argue others into changing their opinions is futile. Heck, most of us can't even convince ourselves to change for the better, lose wt.,eat healthier, save more,etc., how can we expect to change someone else.This is not to say that we should not speak the truth as we understand it. But we should do so always with humility, honesty, admitting as sure as we are of our opinion or stance, there is the possibility we might be wrong.
To me we are not in charge of what others believe & we can if you elect trust God's ongoing work in oneself. When we treat others with kindness & respect, we participate in His work & forms each of us more fully into the image of Christ.
Imho,deciding to be kind to each other by listening to them & speaking back with respect is a spiritual discipline, that certainly the oldscout must do better at acting out.
While I know some of you do not profess to the words of the Bible,but I hope you will consider my thoughts & the effort I hope to make,not only here but with wife,family, friends & strangers.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
woody

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Reply with quote  #6 
Dewey, in regards to the insulting part of your post. I must say with all due respect, when the Supreme court rules on the constitutionality of the Health Care bill, I like the rest of Americans will abide by their decision. 
On another point, I seriously ask you to look at why the so called Right have accused the Democrats of redistribution of wealth. At no time in Americas history has the Government been so intertwined and with the daily lives of Americans. The thought that Government would have control of not only Health Care and it's delivery, let alone the takeover of GM has left many on the Right and in the Middle of the political spectrum that believe in limited Government upset to say the least. Since the 1960's through Government creation of agencies, the Federal Government has spread it's tentacles into States rights area through Education funding, Highway projects, and Human Services Agencies. I think as a nation we are on the brink of a wave of resentment that may spill out into Civil unrest for the Federal Government for that intrusion. It is no longer thought by many to be a duty of good will the Federal Government is performing, but a power grab at the State, Local, and Personal control of the American Public. I think this misunderstanding by the Liberal arm of the Democratic Party as to the severity of displeasure the average American feels is surfacing on this forum. People of this country feel that a bunch of Liberals have intentionally attempted to harm the Constitutional structure of this country and are acting out their frustrations in posts to this forum as a result.

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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #7 
woody - There is nothing in your post that surprises me and you've done well in making your case.  I've read most of your posts and I understand very well how you feel on most issues.  We'll let the readers decide.

With regards to some specifics in your post, ones you suggest make today different than any other time, I'll comment on two.  In my opinion, we suffered an economic tragedy, (financial collapse), unlike any we've seen in our lifetime.  As a direct result, GM was likely to go under and the tragedy would have worsened.  The President chose to step in and help.  To me, it was not unlike supporting a community hurt by a natural disaster, but we obviously disagree.  Finally, if we were introducing Social Security today, the same cries of too much Government involvement would be taking place as we hear regarding the new health bill.  Today, Social Security is a program that most citizens favor.  I think someday the healthcare bill will experience similar favor.     
woody

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Reply with quote  #8 
It is by increasing degrees, over a long period, which boils the frog. So go your personal Liberties, and self motivation for Independence from a State that intrudes on your life.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #9 
Dewey, the problem with Obama stepping in to "save" GM is that he screwed the stock holders who had money invested in GM and basically gave the company to the Union. When that fact is that the Unions are the ones that made GM go bankrupt in the first place.
Just like the situation with Freddie and Fannie, instead of fixing the problem, the libs just want to throw more of MY money at it.

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Jack Dandy
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #10 

JD - I really don't have the interest in debating the good or bad of the GM support.  What I'm trying to understand is why the Bush deficits, Bush entitlement Rx program, and the controversial Supreme Court involvement in the Florida decision did not bring out the "Constitutionalists", but the Obama deficits, Obama health care bill, and GM support has them all up in arms.  I just don't get it.

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

JD - I really don't have the interest in debating the good or bad of the GM support.  What I'm trying to understand is why the Bush deficits, Bush entitlement Rx program, and the controversial Supreme Court involvement in the Florida decision did not bring out the "Constitutionalists", but the Obama deficits, Obama health care bill, and GM support has them all up in arms.  I just don't get it.

I would say that it is rather simple; you have the stuff under Bush & now Obama & people are finally fed up with too much GOV. Only so long can you continue to go against the WILL of the people.

Return our country to we the citizens


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #12 
Come on, oldscout.  I've read you for a long time, here, you are smart, and I'm certain you don't really believe that latest comment.

IT'S OBAMA - that's it, and only it, and you know it (and your response certainly did nothing to answer Dewey's question).
slideby7

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Reply with quote  #13 
Mr. Dewey,
More than likely the reason the "Constitutionalists" didn't come out to the extent you may feel they should have, is the same reason you don't have an interest in debating the good or bad of the GM "bailout"  As far as the Florida decision, I believe the Supreme Court has the last word.

Mr. Indyruns,

I frequently hear that it is "Obama".  I scratch my head trying to figure out how he was elected, and then I wonder if maybe, juuuust maybe, the reaction is to his policies.  I'm just sayin!!!!
keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #14 
Red team blue team
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"I like to establish the parameters of my own thoughts and don't think I need a director."

"This is not debate class. And this is not about politeness. We're talking about the damn future of our country"

"It is not just simply yelling out a name and yelling down dissenters........................... and I'll defend your right to even insult me" 
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