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Texas

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Reply with quote  #1 

"So Cal ASA will allow only 50 (give or take 1 or 2 to fit a balanced bracket) teams to be classified as Gold.

This number will be reached by:

All teams from So Cal that qualified at last year's Region 14 Tournament or either West Territory Tournament or finished in the top ten at Gold Nationals, actually this means tied for 9th place will be Gold and can enter the regional (for 2009 that number is 11).

All So Cal teams that participated in last year's Region 14 Tournament can enter either or both of two new tournaments to qualify to enter the 2009 Region 14 Tournament. (That number is 54 teams from 2008). Teams that qualified for Gold Nationals at a different Territory Tournament or the HOF Qualifier can enter the new qualifying Tournaments but are not automatically allowed into the 2009 Region 14 Tournament unless they finished tied for ninth or better at Gold Nationals (This number is 2 teams that qualified in another Territory, neither finished tied for 9th or better at Gold Nationals)

18A teams that finished tied for 9th or better in the So Cal State can enter the new qualifying tournaments to earn entry in the Region 14 Tournament

16U team that finished tied for 9th or better in the So Cal State can enter the new qualifying tournaments to earn entry into the Region 14 Tournament

16U or 18A teams that qualified for their respective HOF Tournaments in So Cal can enter the new qualifying tournaments to earn entry into the Region 14 Tournament

There will be 84 teams in the first qualifying tournament and 72 teams in the second tournament.

39 (give or take the one or two for bracket balance) berths will be available and will be split as evenly as numbers allow between the two qualifiers.

50 total berths minus the 11 team that qualify by last years results

The first qualifier will be Jan 16-18 at a site TBA

The second Feb 13-15 also TBA

How to deal with brand new teams with no past record has to be worked out

There will be a meeting on October 15th to discuss this and receive input from interested parties, the actual process to be used will be set and announced after that meeting."

 

Some good debating going on the other boards.  I don't see this stopping with just Region 14.  Will it help 18A out of the rut or just re-enforce the 16's?  My bet is on the latter.

iwitness

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Reply with quote  #2 
I don't see it having much "teeth."

Most exposure tournaments (which is where the majority of recruiting takes place) are not controlled by ASA.


vcaldwell

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Reply with quote  #3 
How are you going to be able to hold qualifying tournaments in Jan and Feb during HS ball? Top HS coaches in TX do not allow their player to play on other teams during HS. I also remember reading on this board that CIF prohibits participation on club teams during the active HS season. True? That might be a problem as well.

Without ASA National approval I will wait for the first lawsuit that arises from any attempt to prevent access to a team from participating in a qualifier for a national event and being told they cannot.

JMHO,
Vic

ikeepscore

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Reply with quote  #4 

California high school ball doesn't start til the end of February.

tenfour

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Reply with quote  #5 
IF this change in GOLD status were to occur with many of the 18GOLD teams, this would only add to the number of 18A teams that are in existence.
That is more worrisome (to me) considering the number of 18A teams that now play in the nationals, than worrying about the quality of 18GOLD teams.

Is the intent to ensure that So-Cal consolidates their best talent into fewer teams in order for California to dominate the GOLD Nationals?
What is next, banning California players from playing on teams outside the state?
The SO-CAL ASA appears to be (unintentionally) pushing teams away from the ASA brand of softball.

One doesn't have to look too hard to imagine lawyers rubbing their hands in glee.

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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #6 
It's not just SoCal ASA it is all of Region 14 that is considering this proposal.

Also interesting is the two qualifier tournaments are both pseudo-holiday weekends. MLK day and Valentines. Are the college girls off those weekends where they could come home for the weekend and participate?


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Floyd

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Without ASA National approval I will wait for the first lawsuit that arises from any attempt to prevent access to a team from participating in a qualifier for a national event and being told they cannot.


Vic:

According to the ASA Code, local associations (as well as regions) have the authority to adopt classification policies as long as they are not in violation of the ASA Code.  Region 14 already has a policy for classification of "A", "B" and "C" teams that did not require "ASA National" approval.

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NorthSouth

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Reply with quote  #8 
     The first weekend of the proposed pre-qualifying qualifier is right before finals.  Smart move.  The college girls will be back in school with practices in full swing. NCAA violation if they play? The second is right before High School starts, usually has weather issues, and some colleges are already playing.  Interesting to see who will qualify.
     Let teams play gold or 18A. They should figure it out how after playing in the winter, if they don't the 1st qualifier will be deciding for them. 
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #9 
NCAA violation if they play?
 
Are you asking rhetorically?

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Bill Smith
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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #10 
This solution has a fatal flaw that has plagued all of the attempts to regulate the process to qualify for ASA 18-Gold nationals.

In the past, ASA has been shown to be arithmetically challenged.

Short historical synopsis:

Point system, could not keep track of points or teams named Sharks.

Present system, 64-team tourney, except when number fumbling requires an expansion to 65 to avoid lawsuit.

Proposed system(s): more reliance on arithmetic.

Houston Oklahoma we have a problem.

It won't matter until old math is applied. New math hasn't worked.

Next?...perhaps another gerrymander division of the country...thesaurus running dry with area, division, metro, association, region, sector, zone being used...suggest going the hockey route and use proper names like, Venn, Euler, etc. 

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Bill Smith
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NorthSouth

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Reply with quote  #11 
Serious question.
Would any NCAA program allow their student athlete to leave school for a weekend in Jan and Feb to play on their travel team? Is there a rule preventing this?
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #12 
As near as I know, a rostered NCAA softball athlete may not participate with another team until there school term is finished. Exceptions are for purpose of national team tryouts or competition, I believe. (Yes, 18-Gold is considered a junior olympic program, so by stretch of language one could...but, no.)

Been months since I've read those passages, so... YMMV.

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vcaldwell

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Reply with quote  #13 
Floyd,
You're right. I should have reread the code. However, from what I can find the Region 14 process for A B C involves playing to determine classification. Looks like the current proposal will allow some teams to retain a spot based on the previous years finish.

This proposal will NOT make gold stronger. The top teams will always qualify just like they do now. What it will do is a) drive teams away from ASA, b) cost families a LOT more money as teams will go to other regions to qualify, c) make showcase events even bigger than they are (many are too big now) Next thing you know we will have the "SoCal College Showcase" at 12 different complexes in Southern Cal and the coaches will sit at the "main" complex where all of the top teams will always be playing while the typical team plays at some complex 40 miles away where a few coaches MAY travel to.

I am one of those that believes that Gold Nationals should be for the best 18U players whether in college or HS. It is not a recruiting showcase it is a national championship for players 18 years old and under. In my opinion what caused the GOLD explosion was three things. One, ASA's decision 4-5 years ago to not move 18A to 43' pitching. Two, ASA's rule change that prevented a team from competeing in A class once they had attended a Gold qualifier (whether they qualified or not). When those two things happened the number of college coaches attending 18A nationals went down because the number of quality teams to see went down and the numbers of coaches attending gold qualifiers went up along with their attendance at other 18U nationals like AFA, USSSA and NSA (though not as  significantly). Three, the practice of coches recruiting and offering early commitments to younger and younger players. Now coaches MUST attend 16U nationals in order to remain competitive. While nationals should be just about competing for a national title the reality is that they have become recruiting opportunities for colleges. No different than Boulder, Octoberfest, Team NJ or Rising Stars. It's a shame really. I'd like to see the NCAA make the two Nationals weeks dead periods and put penalties in place for verbal commitments and require coaches to sign an affidavit annually stating that they have not offered anything to non-recruitable aged players. Then we could all get back to just playing ball.

Of Course these are JMHO's,
Vic

Floyd

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
You're right. I should have reread the code. However, from what I can find the Region 14 process for A B C involves playing to determine classification.


Vic:

Actually, the Region 14 policies on classification of A, B and C youth teams is more about forcing teams to play up if they don't meet specific criteria (local recreation all-stars and size of league or geographic limitations to draw from).  As was posted here earlier, this is in contrast with what is being proposed in the Gold program which is to force 18U teams to play down if they don't meet some type of criteria.  All other ASA classification policies (including the Region's A, B and C policies) are aimed to force teams to play up.

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BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #15 

Keeping the information wheels rolling:

 

Attention Nor Cal Gold Managers,

I know that you have been hearing rumors of Gold teams going through some type of qualifying procedure to become Gold.  Region 14 has not establish any type of procedure for this, I have heard that some Association have begun to try to implement a procedure, but this is hear say and I will not know more until our November Meeting at the ASA National Council meeting.

Here in Nor Cal we will continue to let our teams self declare at the 18U Gold level. Once declared, those teams may not reclassify to any other classification during the Championship Play season.

Hopefully this will put an end to the rumors that have been circulating in our area.

Manuel Gomez

Nor Cal ASA JO Commissioner


My note: "NorCal ASA" is not all of the geographic area known as Northern California. Excluded are some old "metros" now termed "associations" that would include, Sacramento, Greater San Joaquin, San Francisco, etc.
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Bill Smith
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ken001b

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Reply with quote  #16 
What is to stop a team with predominately (read: all) of their players from Southern California from registering as a Nor Cal team if this is true?

Wouldnt you just need a coach to have a valid Nor Cal address to register the team under?


BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #17 

J.O. commish has to "sign off" on rosters. Address would be a start, but players all out of immediate "association" could be cause for denial, though not strictly covered by code.


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vcaldwell

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Reply with quote  #18 
Bill,
I had wondered the same question. I thought Gold could register where they want. Checked the code and with JO here.

ASA Code Article 501.B.01 TEAM REGISTRATION- A team must register with the local association where the greatest number of its' players reside.
EXCEPTION - Teams in adjoining counties to a Metro association may register in either the state or metro association.


He said that after that if it isn't clear which assoc to register in then it will go to the home address of the coach. But for that to happen you would have to have either an exact split OR have all players from different associations.

For purposes of this discussion a coach could put together a team and as long as he/she had the greater number from a Nor Cal association he could register them there. You could have 9 So Cal players with no more than 2 from any one assoc and 3 Nor Cal and register Nor Cal.

Vic

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #19 
All of "SoCal" is a single association. Only one fifedom for all of the southern part of the state and that includes San Diego.

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Bill Smith
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Texas

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Reply with quote  #20 
All of the "should be" Golds that didn't make the Region 14 cut will just travel to qualify.  The "wanna be" Golds will probably stay home and re-classify.

Like the IRS, I think this just hinders the middle class teams that can beat the big boys, maybe not a regular basis.


BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #21 
Not sure if everyone understands this passage:

"So Cal ASA will allow only 50 (give or take 1 or 2 to fit a balanced bracket) teams to be classified as Gold."
 
My interpretation of that sentence is that only fifty teams will be CLASSIFIED as Gold from the SoCal ASA association. Teams won't be able to qualify elsewhere, as they will not have the endorsement, i.e. signed roster, from their JO commissioner.

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Bill Smith
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Texas

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Reply with quote  #22 

Not saying you are wrong, but I may need help understanding this.

Here, any team can enter a Gold qualifier.  The Region 7 qualifier had Gold and 18A teams.  Teams want to put Gold on their name, but classify as 18A so they can enter more tournaments.

What the Region 14 proposal is saying to me is that they are limiting/re-classifying those teams that can even enter the Region 14 Gold qualifier.

True?

If that is the case, your 18A teams can travel anywhere to qualify.

sbdude

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Reply with quote  #23 

I have been told that there will be a tournament in January to define Gold teams from region 14.  I have a few questions?  Does that mean that the teams from Nevada that are in region 14 have to travel to socal?  And what about some of those teams from small towns that have players playing Basketball during the winter, and cannot travel to a tournament at that time?  And how about those teams that rely on college players that help them play at that level?  I can bet that college players will not be able to play in a travel ball tournament in January.  And whoever says they could play is crazy. 

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #24 
Texas,

Speaking only for my experience in California, Gold is Gold. If you play in a qualifier, your team could no longer "play down" to "A" qualifiers.

The intention of SoCAL ASA is to limit the number of teams sanctioned from their association. This doesn't represent the enterity of Region 14. In my earlier post, I cc'd a letter from NorCal ASA regarding their policy. That is for the association. Within the geographic area known as Northern California, we do have separate associations (the old Metros). They could have a differing policy. My understanding is that Greater San Joaquin has held a meeting and have cerified their exisiting "Gold" teams. Others?

SoCal is one big, giant, huge, mega-association. There are no separate metros. Fifty would be what they alone would certify. 18a teams from SoCal would not have the option of traveling to play in an ASA Gold qualifier, as they would not receive sanction by the JO in SoCal. This is how I understand it by reading the verbage posted and cursory chat with SoCal folks.

Teams can play any tournament, showcase, etc. they desire and call themselves gold, platinum, iridium, etc., but if they desire to play in an ASA nat'l qualifier, they need the sanction of their association, even if they play "on-the-road" and from what I read and am told, from what SoCal ASA proposes, that will only include fifty teams.

I'm not known for being concise. (Ok, ok, I know that's an understatement.) In answer to your question, not Region 14, but SoCal ASA, so false. Not just entering Region 14 qualifier, but limiting teams with official redlined 18Gold rosters from SoCal State ASA, those teams not being able to play any ASA Gold nat'l qualifier, anywhere, that season.

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Bill Smith
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TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #25 
The problem with SoCal is that there are too many great 18 teams and not all can be Gold.
Many 18A teams are actually better than some 18 Gold teams.
gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #26 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
The problem with SoCal is that there are too many great 18 teams and not all can be Gold.
Many 18A teams are actually better than some 18 Gold teams.


Been away from travel ball awhile huh?

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Texas

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Reply with quote  #27 
And now approved and official, per a Heybucket member:

"Just opened my email this morning and saw that the gold proposal is now official for 2009. Teams that qualified for gold nationals last summer are already classified as gold and do not have to play in the classification tournaments. The limit for the number of socal gold teams is 54 in 2009 and 50 in future years. Classification tournaments are being held on 1/16/09 - 1/18-09 and 2/13/09 - 2/15/09. Cost is $350 per tournament. No rain policy was published. This will all be published in the new yellow book."

That sure was fast.  I say again, unless the other regions change and some are looking that way, look for more SoCal teams in your qualifying tournaments.  The cost of 18U travel ball in CA just went up!
Andy

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Reply with quote  #28 

I understand Central Cal is also doing this as of 2009 and will also hold a classification meetingfor their teams the same weekend. 

midodd

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Reply with quote  #29 
Andy:

I spoke with the Cen Cal commissioner on this a few weeks ago.  Central Cal only has a few gold teams so thier is no need for a classification tournament.

As Cen Cal borders So Cal, we have seen So Cal teams attempt to register in Cen Cal before at 16U and 14Us.  None of these teams have been successful and now with Cen Cal new association rules put in place last year, it will even be more difficult.
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