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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #61 

Joisey, you keep mentioning religions.....Who hates religions more than I?


Quote:
It is so much easier to rely on a diety for credit or blame for human actions...


Credit, yes....Blame, no....God gives us free will to make our own decisions as to how we act....If we choose to disobey and dishonor Him, He is not to blame, only we are to blame....If we obey and honor Him, then, yes, He gets the credit for guiding and leading us.....

Quote:
.....or if one is not immediately available,....


God of the Bible is always available to us....Seek Him and you will find Him....


Quote:
Look closely and you will find that humans are not at war with humans, but rather the institutions that specific cultural groups have created as some sort of "truth" are at war with those institutions whose values differ in search for that same "truth". Most guilty of creating chaos and enmity historically among men are nationalism and religions.


Absolutely, the truth....Religion by it's very nature is, and has to be, full of lies since none of them agree with the other....The same is true for denominations of the same religion.....Although, denominations are also religions as they all teach something different than the other....

The Bible warns often and emphatically to beware of false teachers and false teaching....In this Book lies the TRUTH.....Most of the people in every part of the world are Bible illiterate....Thus, the temptation to trust our human intellect as a base for our decisions....President Reagan knew we must not yield to that temptation....The only trust we need is trust in God of the Bible....President Reagan, also, knew that....   




indyrun

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Reply with quote  #62 

JG - again (and again) your words flow like honey, and taste just as good.  Thanks (for you).

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #63 

blue - with your Bible on your shoulder, how can you "hate" anything? I really don't think I hate anything or anyone, but you know my leanings in this general area.  I'm just think'in you should be ashamed.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #64 

Indy, there are many things God hates...

If you would read, or study, the Bible, you would know this....The truth is, if you love your sisters and brothers, and we all are one or the other, you will also hate some things...

God destroyed the two sinful cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, and everyone in them with fire from above after He let Lot and his family escape......God told Lot's wife not to look back at the cities and she disobeyed and looked back....God turned her into a pillar of stone....

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens"  Genesis 19:24.  "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly"  II Peter 2:6.

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #65 
So - "God hates".  Interesting bd.  I was taught not to.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #66 

Indy, you speak hateful things on here talking about politics....Who do you think you're fooling?....Yourself?...

You're not capable of not hating....No matter what Oprah says....

Oh, add lying to the list, too....Indy, you're a sinner just like me...Imagine that....

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #67 
Of course I'm a sinner, and have a lot of emotion about a lot of things, BUT you will never find anything written or said by me where I have professed hatred for anyone.  I was raised as such, and my children were also.

One can disagree, dislike and even resent particular opinions, method of presentation, and what someone supposedly stands for, BUT not hate that individual.

I continue to make the point that, as God fearing as you profess to be, that you are comfortable in both indicating that God hates, as does yourself.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again - you are a hypocrite, and should be ashamed, with all your Godly preaching.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #68 
This is a segment of an article (editorial page) in my morning paper. I thought it appropriate to a discussion of "hate":

"At 14 months he (a child discussed) does understand a simple truth that appears all but lost by an angry populace and its leaders. He does understand that love transforms threats into opportunities while hatred does the reverse and makes threats out of opportunities.

An old description of heaven and hell held that people were compelled to eat rice with too long chopsticks in both places. In hell people were very angry because they rarely succeeded to bring the grains of rice to their mouth. In heaven they were fully satisfied because everybody used the chopsticks to feed his or her neighbor".

from an editorial by Lodovico Balducci. I think it contains a concept for all of us to consider.

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #69 
bluedog - I wonder where (and why) I learned that the pillar was a pillar of salt? I don't care enough to look it up except for the "salt" thing, and I don't mean to nit pick. Can you enlighten me? Genesis 19:26. Thanks.

PS - Is the destruction of perceived "evil" by "good" hatred, or simply an act of "making things right" from a given perspective, or is all of that semantics and only a perception of what is evil? For example, if I am a Muslim extremist and I blow myself up in a Christian neighborhood, am I "destroying evil" or merely "killing human beings who disagree with our perspective"? Yikes !

PPS - From some perspectives, the folks in Sodom and Gomorra were just "partying up a storm" whereas from another perspective they were "sinning". Does the second perspective have the right to impose its will (destruction) on the first perspective? Does the sermon "Sinners In The Hands of an Angry God" bear fruit? Is "guilt" the ultimate teacher of right and wrong or merely a mechanism to keep folks in line?

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
.....the pillar was a pillar of salt?



Quote:

"But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt." (Genesis 19:14-17, 23-26, NKJV)

 

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #71 
Joisey, one cannot compare what God thinks and does to what humans think and do....God is without sin and humans are quite sinful.....

Quote:
From some perspectives, the folks in Sodom and Gomorra were just "partying up a storm" whereas from another perspective they were "sinning".  


My perspective is, they were doing both....
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #72 
Quote:
I continue to make the point that, as God fearing as you profess to be, that you are comfortable in both indicating that God hates, as does yourself.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again - you are a hypocrite, and should be ashamed, with all your Godly preaching.
 


Indy, you're just a bigger liar than I, that's all....
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #73 
blue dog - If I begin a philosophy by stating that the moon is made of green cheese, then all truths concerning the moon flow from the green cheese theory. If one begins with a theoretical, though unproven, basic premise, then all else flows from the basic premise, proven or no, or perhaps even demanding "faith" without any proof.

All of mythology operates that way, from a basic unproven theory that serves a social purpose, and flows from there with the unimpeachable basic premise based on "faith". Generally, great power is given to the manifestation of the concept, often creating fear and arriving at a social code to be followed by those who are "holy" or even "chosen". Most theories involve a sense of "essence" and "manifestation" akin to "body and soul". Likewise, many acknowledge a "Central Essence" and give it a name, anything from "Nature" to "God" to "gods" to "Great Spirit" to "man-gods" or "demi gods". Some create an anthropromorphic symbol of that "Central Essence". One is usually promised a paradise of an afterlife if he abides by the code. That keeps him under the control of the code makers. When the manifestation dies, the personal essence returns to the greater essence from whence it came if he has followed "the code".

Blowing oneself up or crashing airplanes into enemy shipping sometimes become "shortcuts" to the paradise if one truly believes that he is serving whatever form of the "Central Essence" that he has been told to serve. In the former case, the "word of God" as written in the Quran and interpreted by zealots, or in the latter case which is following the command of the "Son of the Sun", God's representative on Earth, a man-god.

If one does not "believe" the basic premise, he is either then condemned "heretic" or a "false prophet" or "non-believer". He might even be sacrificed to the group's god. In some societies he is burned at the stake or simply driven from the group of believers or shunned if he cannot be drawn into the groupthink. It's a pretty closed social concept, but many believe it and live it.

PS - The basic concept that our nation is built on is "Man in the State of Nature is good" (John Locke) - been to the State of nature lately? Kind of shoots the crap out of "original sin" though, doesn't it? You seem to have found your Tao and you live following that way, so you must be enhancing your Buddha-nature every day.

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #74 

Quote:
"Man in the State of Nature is good" (John Locke) 


I understand what you're implying about mankind, Joisey....

Problem is, man in any state is not good....Man just simply has a sinful nature....There is not goodness in man....

When God flooded the Earth and killed everyone on it except Noah and his family, the only decent person on the Earth was Noah....And, he wasn't good, either, but, he did fear God, so God spared him.... 

Quote:
The basic concept that our nation is built on is "Man in the State of Nature is good" (John Locke) Kind of shoots the crap out of "original sin" though, doesn't it


Joisey, I wasn't there and don't know the concept our Nation was built on....Some say the fear of God, some say other things....I, surely, don't know....All the documents of that day were written by man....The agendas of each person are mixed in with some truth and some eloquent fillibustering ....

The Bible makes sense to me and is quite easy to understand....I can't see any logic other than original sin which the Bible says....And, I wasn't there when it took place just as I wasn't there when our Nation was founded....But, I know I know the Bible is the true Word of God......I test Him when He tells me what He will do for me....God doesn't lie.....His prophecy in the Bible, which has come true time after time, and every time, is enough alone to prove who He is....

Man could not have written the Bible without God's hand leading them....If any person would study the Bible with a mind cleared of any agenda, they would see this to be true....


JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #75 
bluedog - Carrying your perspective of man in the state of nature into the political arena, Thomas Hobbes (agrees with you) says that man's life in the state of nature is short and brutish, and man thus needs a dictator or king or tyrant to curb his natural impulses toward evil. Do you agree that man needs a king, etc. rather than "we the people" determining through elections what form our governmental power in our nation-state takes?
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #76 
bd - you are a real piece of work. 

First you say God hates, then I'm a hater, and now I'm a liar.  Is saying these types of things about other folks a part and parcel of your "God like" teachings? 

And, have to make one comment about something you passed on to JG. You said that "Man could not have written the Bible without God's hand leading them". Interesting concept, but millions (billions?) of books have been written, in one form or another, throughout all of time that "mankind has been on this earth". I'm sure most if not all of those were written without "any ones" hand leading them.  Why not the Bible, also? 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Do you agree that man needs a king, etc. rather than "we the people" determining through elections what form our governmental power in our nation-state takes?


Joisey, very good question......The Bible can confuse those who pick a verse, or two, to form an opinion on this....One must study more in the Bible to understand what God tells us about Kings and Government....

Quote:
   "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the

Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme, or unto

 governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the

punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do

 well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may

put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. As free, and not

 using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the

servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood.

Fear God. Honour the king."                        ( I Pt  2: 13-17 ) 

 

Jesus said....

 

Quote:
   "Then saith Pilate unto him: Speakest thou not unto me?

 Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have

power to release thee? Jesus answered:Thou couldest have

no power at all against me, except it were given thee from

above. Therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the

greater sin."                                         ( Jn 19: 10-11 )

 

Conversation between Jesus and Satan...

 

Quote:
"And the Devil, taking him up into a high mountain, shewed

 unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

 And the devil said unto him: All this power will I give thee,

and the glory of them, for that is delivered unto me, and to

whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me,

 all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him: Get

 thee behind me, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt worship

the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

( Lk  4: 5-8 )

 

Quote:
"And he changeth the times and the seasons; He removeth

kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise,

and knowledge to them that know understanding. He revealeth

 the deep and secret things; he knoweth what is in the darkness,

 and the light dwelleth with him."                     ( Dn  2: 20-22 )

 

God tells us in the Bible that He appoints Kings and we are to obey them....So, if we were to have a King, it would be God's will.....

 

However, we are to know that King's are certainly men and are subject to Satan's temptations.....So, above all else, we must obey God....

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #78 
bluedog - However, if we the people elect leaders, does that then mean that your God guides our votes? Is there just a tad of possibility that man's intellect and emotions guide the votes, and the leader is the result (for better or worse), and that no diety's hand is on the political results, that perhaps media and money have a larger influence than your God?
PS - That is unless only "kings" (Hobbes' alternative) are appointed by your God and our founding fathers got it all wrong? The reasoning for kings and blood line inheritance to the throne was always that God gave them the right to rule. Who gives our elected officials the right to rule if it isn't "we the people" through our election process? Our election process is a logical extension of the idea that "man in the state of nature is good".

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #79 
Joisey, God gave the Israelis a Nation after he let them out of slavery in Egypt...The Israelis began rebelling against God and clamoring for a King to rule over them....God granted their request and made Saul their King....

God speaking to Samuel, who was leading Israel and was gonna be replaced by King Saul........

Quote:
"Hearken to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. According to all the deeds which they have done to Me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking Me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. Now then, hearken to their voice; only, you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them." (1 Samuel 8:7-9 RSV)  


Quote:

After being selected by God (1 Samuel 9:15-17), Saul was secretly anointed by Samuel (1 Samuel 10:1) before being publicly chosen by lot:

"Now Samuel called the people together to The Lord at Mizpah; and he said to the people of Israel, "Thus says The Lord, the God of Israel, 'I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the hand of all the kingdoms that were oppressing you.' But you have this day rejected your God, who saves you from all your calamities and your distresses; and you have said, 'No! but set a king over us.' Now therefore present yourselves before The Lord by your tribes and by your thousands."

"Then Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot. He brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the family of the Matrites was taken by lot; finally he brought the family of the Matrites near man by man, and Saul the son of Kish was taken by lot. But when they sought him, he could not be found. So they inquired again of The Lord, "Did the man come hither?" and The Lord said, "Behold, he has hidden himself among the baggage." "Then they ran and fetched him from there; and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward. And Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom The Lord has chosen? There is none like him among all the people." And all the people shouted, "Long live the king!" (1 Samuel 10:17-24 RSV)



You may know that King Saul went bad and God replaced him with King David after taking King Saul's life....


 
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #80 

To understand God's role in our election process, one must, first, understand end day prophecy because we are there....Daniel and Revelation are the two Bible books to study....The prophecy will explain the direction our Nation will go....Our elected officials will fit in with the direction we take to fulfill the prophecy....

We may elect them without God's interference, we may not...


I wil say this....Obama came from nowhere in a heartbeat when Hillary looked unbeatable....Everybody was saying, who is Obama?....There was no stopping his rise....Was that by God's hand?....I don't know...But, Obama is there to fulfill Bible prophecy..


vol52

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Reply with quote  #81 
bluedog,

If you read the bible with a truly open mind and no predisposition you wouldn't be touting the supposed "end day prophecy" of Daniel and Revelation.  Those books were written to explain events that have long since occurred.  Otherwise they would have been meaningless to the Jews and 1st century Christians who were to benefit from the writings. 

I think you have been heavily influenced by some writer like Hal Lindsey and just won't fess up to it.
______________
Steve Rhodes
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #82 

Vol, some of the events have occurred......Some have yet to occur....

For sure, the seven plagues have not all occurred....Do you disagree with this?

I don't know of Hal Lindsey....


I'm influenced by the Bible...

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #83 

Vol, are you also saying that there is no second coming of Jesus Christ?

vol52

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Reply with quote  #84 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
I'm influenced by the Bible...

So am I.

Perhaps if you haven't read a discussion of Jewish apocalyptic and prophetic literature you might find it enlightening.  Otherwise all the symbolism (especially in Revelation) won't make a lot of sense unless you really expect to someday see a dragon with seven heads, seven crowns, and ten horns.

You seem to be a Futurist , placing the books primarily at the end of times. I am a preterist who thinks that most if not all events have already happened.  Concerning the seven plagues, I think the symbolism, etc. refers, ultimately to fall of Rome.
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Steve Rhodes
vol52

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Reply with quote  #85 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog

Vol, are you also saying that there is no second coming of Jesus Christ?

Where did you get that idea?
___________________
Steve Rhodes
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #86 
bluedog - I'll take the hit for VOL though I certainly don't speak for him. The second coming of Christ, in my mind, is not a real coming or a real promise (but then again I question the going) but rather an allegorical means of describing the hope of all men, that goodness will ultimately prevail over evil and those who follow the code will be rewarded. Cool idea, great metaphor, but not an actual physical arrival. By the way, I think that Jesus Christ was one of the great rabbis and a socialist philosopher that has influenced much of Western culture for centuries. I state this only so that you know where I'm coming from in terms of first causes, and today we have the advantage of worldwide media and the use of cyber space.

I also see the bible as a series of short stories written hundreds of years apart, often passed off as the word of the only real diety, and I can't help but think of an author today attempting to encompass accurately the mindset of a pre American Revolutionary average person, 250 years ago, or even a leader from two hundred plus years ago. Take Lord North of England during our colonial period and place him in today's society in the USA, and the perspectives would be amazing to both period "truths". Certainly the perspective writings of North would be interesting, but just might lack accuracy in assessment and prediction of future outcomes.

Predicting the future is a very risky business, especially when there are concepts existing there that one cannot even imagine. Remember when the world was flat, or when all planets supposedly revolved around the earth? Remember when Nobel thought he had invented the ultimate destructive weapon, dynamite? Time and space are too variable and progressive to make predictions beyond a narrow educated guess. For educated predictions, I'll take Jules Verne over the bible every time. Nostrodamus is so open to interpretation as to be humorous, yet interesting.

If I can live so that I die with an idea that I have enjoyed "a life well lived", that's enough for me. I do not live my life to ensure that I achieve someone's fuzzy promise of a paradise I shall endeavor not to hurt my fellow human being if that is at all possible while I'm still vertical on the planet. If there's more than my time on earth, I'll still take the same mindset with me next time around, even if I don't achieve Nirvana on the first trip (or is it my first trip? - - ).

PS - I have no desire to have others think as I do. I have only a desire that they too live a "life well lived".


__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #87 
If I could write with the skill of you, JG, I would have written those exact thoughts, word for word. You have expressed my mental concepts of  many years, but have done it so others can see (with the one exception of your "Lord North" comments - lost me there).

I believe you must be my long lost twin, that mom used to tell me about (no, she didn't really, but kind of spooky at times to read "your words", which is almost exactly what "I think & believe").
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #88 
Tim - Lord North was an English nobleman during the American Revolution. He was amazed that the colonies would revolt because of, in his eyes, all that England had done for "those colonists over there". His story is a great example of perspective as it is an example of the views of English aristocracy toward "colonials" during that time period. His position in life and his perspective from there was an example of English aristocracy and class inheritance that grew out of Norman feudalism circa 1066. Today we find similar perspectives that are socio-economic rather than simply blood line relationship, though economic inheritance and power inheritance do often play a role in our current economic class perspective.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #89 

So either Indy and JG are the same poster and JG uses the "Indy" name to pad his ego because nobody else will OR Indy has a junior high crush on JG..... Either way, it is freaking me out  


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When Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in an empty suit and promising hope and change.

Jack Dandy
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #90 
Been on the road up here in Wisconsin.....so much to comment on,don't know where to begin. So, just a couple.
My take on book of Revelations;The book contains many visions of horrible disasters, yet I don't see its purpose to be one of showing destruction. I think it is meant to show us that the real struggle in life is whether we follow Jesus or if we follow the way of the world. In other words the battle in history & the future was & is between good & evil & we all must sooner or later choose sides.

On hate;God does hate evil,but he loves even those that do evil & offers all redemption.

__________________
Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
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