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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Yes or no?  Is it right to believe that the religion of Islam is responsible for all those deaths that September day?
 


Depends on how much one knows about Islam.....
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
THAT is what America stands for.
 


America can stand for whatever you want to believe it stands for....That belief will differ from person to person....

The issue is, what do we, as individuals, stand for....
POV

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Reply with quote  #33 

Go Yard, thanks for the Spy link.  I don't read Rayburn as much as I used to when my kid was playing.  He nailed it.

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #34 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
oldscout - I have answered that multiple times already.  Yes.  To do otherwise now is to say to millions of Muslims all around the world that their religion is largely to blame for 9/11.  That's both wrong and unfair.

PS:  My turn oldscout.  Yes or no?  Is it right to believe that the religion of Islam is responsible for all those deaths that September day?
VERY surprized you ask me that question....my answer is NO, i do not  hold the religion of Islam responsible for 9/11.

I do think they SHOULD NOT build the Mosgue at the site they want to build it,out of respect to the 1000,s of people it will offend[relatives & families]....I think they probably will attempt to build it there or at least will keep the possibility alive & that in itself tells me something.


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #35 
oldscout - I asked you that question because you are giving me conflicting answers.  If you don't feel the religion of Islam is responsible for 9/11, then why would you, or anyone who feels the same, be offended by a mosque or center being opened near ground zero?  The two are unrelated.  I honestly can't figure out your reasoning behind the need to move.  For others who believe Islam is responsible, I can understand their feelings but can't support their misguided conclusion. 

I repeat, if this center is moved, it's making an admission, or allowing others to believe, that Islam is in some way responsible for that day in September.  No Muslim should have to hear their religion is offensive and this campaign against their center's location must be tearing them apart inside. 
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #36 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
oldscout - I asked you that question because you are giving me conflicting answers.  If you don't feel the religion of Islam is responsible for 9/11, then why would you, or anyone who feels the same, be offended by a mosque or center being opened near ground zero?  The two are unrelated.  I honestly can't figure out your reasoning behind the need to move.  For others who believe Islam is responsible, I can understand their feelings but can't support their misguided conclusion. 

I repeat, if this center is moved, it's making an admission, or allowing others to believe, that Islam is in some way responsible for that day in September.  No Muslim should have to hear their religion is offensive and this campaign against their center's location must be tearing them apart inside. 
Where is the voice of the Muslims condeming the actions of the fanatics that committed 9-11....a strong voice?

Where is the voice that condemns their attitude toward women & their treatment of Christians in most Muslim countries...a strong voice?

I will stick with my statement that it would be wise for them not to build where they want to & put this forward as a compromise & understanding& in doing so,come out with a statement from themselves against the fanatics that committed this terrible thing at ground zero.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #37 
Terry - I too would like to hear the mainstream Muslims voice a loud negative opinion of the fringe elements of their religion that have become terrorists. That would go a long way toward assuaging my distrust. The silence makes me wary. Of course, to a lesser extent, I would like to see the moderate Christians in our own country speak out about the fringe elements in Christianity, military and non military, and especially the use of their Diety for political purposes by right wing Christians.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #38 
I too agree that more should speak out about wrongdoing, regardless of the issue.  But that's an entirely different subject.  Here we are debating whether to tie Islam to 9/11 or not.  If one does, I suppose they will feel offended at the Muslim center's location.  If one doesn't, like me, any suggestion to the contrary seems unfair. 

Moving this mosque now would be tantamount to an admission that the Muslim religion is offensive in some way.  Would anyone else be comfortable suggesting the same about their particular faith? 
POV

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Reply with quote  #39 

Just a couple of things.....

*It's not a Mosque, it's a multi-purpose cultural center with meeting rooms, sports courts and equipment as well as space reserved for religious use.

*How close is too close? The proposed site is 3 blocks from Ground Zero, not at Ground Zero.  What would be an acceptable distance?

*Didn't the world opinion (including Muslims) side with the US and against the 9/11 terrorist attackers in the beginning?   Didn't the invasion of Iraq change the way the US was perceived by many?

 

GoYard

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Terry - I too would like to hear the mainstream Muslims voice a loud negative opinion of the fringe elements of their religion that have become terrorists. That would go a long way toward assuaging my distrust. The silence makes me wary. Of course, to a lesser extent, I would like to see the moderate Christians in our own country speak out about the fringe elements in Christianity, military and non military, and especially the use of their Diety for political purposes by right wing Christians.


They have not been silent:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


Statements by Muslims


Muslims Against Terrorism


Muslims Denounce Terrorism


American Muslims Condemn Terrorism


Ottawa Muslims Denounce Terrorist Actions



TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #41 
As Shakespeare said : to be or not to be
Wonder how many of our religious savvy persons have even seen a Koran less read one.
Dewey you are the only one that i agree with, that One should not mix terrorism with religion.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #42 

You've got to be kidding......Religion and terrorism have been partners forever....

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #43 
do not forget that the religious wars of those days like the crusades were controlled by people in power and not terrorists. how about the war between England and the Catholic countries. was those run by terrorists ??????
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #44 

Anyone can play with words and definitions....You can make a terrorist or a fanatic be whatever you want 'em to be......

If you're in a position of power, can you not be a terrorist?......If you think the Catholics were not terrorists in those days, well, think again....The Catholic religion tortured and killed as many, or more, people than Hitler did....  

The difference between christianity and islam is that christian religions twist the Bible and make it fit into their needs.....The different christian denominations argue about what the Bible says and all teach something different...They all think their teaching is better.....

Muslims go by the Koran.....They have one way of teaching....So, read the Koran and you will know how they believe.....Then, your opinion of them will have some substance.....I think most people have heard at least parts of what the Koran offers....




JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #45 
Go Yard - Thank you. I had not read those. Live and learn !!
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #46 

bluedog - You have too many answers besides the one we're debating.  Some of us feel Islam had no responsibility for 9/11 so the location of a mosque is irrelevant.  Others take a quite different view.  Where do you stand and why? 

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #47 
Christians,Muslims, non-believers,we all need to focus on the many areas that we share with each other & not on the lesser areas that seperate us.
I guess none of us would be any better in congress than those we have in there,we can't even compromise on something like this......Most Muslims are good people & hey,so are most Christians.
Kind of reminds me of a bumper sticker I use to have on an old car of mine," Blame it on the Lutherans,everybody else does".

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #48 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoYard
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Terry - I too would like to hear the mainstream Muslims voice a loud negative opinion of the fringe elements of their religion that have become terrorists. That would go a long way toward assuaging my distrust. The silence makes me wary. Of course, to a lesser extent, I would like to see the moderate Christians in our own country speak out about the fringe elements in Christianity, military and non military, and especially the use of their Diety for political purposes by right wing Christians.


They have not been silent:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks


Statements by Muslims


Muslims Against Terrorism


Muslims Denounce Terrorism


American Muslims Condemn Terrorism


Ottawa Muslims Denounce Terrorist Actions



POV- Thanks for these. What seems interesting is that they seem to get little publication from the press or media.

I wonder why that is? Do they fear something if they were to print these comments or have these people on tv to make their remarks? You'd think we wouldn't have to Goggle something to find it.


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #49 
old scout - My feelings exactly. I do read quite a bit and scan various news stations, and I am amazed by the number of reports of Muslim condemnation of terrorists that I've missed.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
POV

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Reply with quote  #50 

oldscout, can't take credit for that research and info.  Kudos to Go Yard.


I was thinking the same thing.  I'm guessing that showing footage of sweaty, red faced protesters with their hate inspired signs/chants or some simple minded nut job preacher stirring up the religious faithful sells more than reporting the simple facts.  

A slippery slope .....


 

POV

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Reply with quote  #51 

There's gotta be a collective sigh of relief from the Gay Community now that the hate mongers have found another target.

Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #52 
I am opposed to constructing the "Cultural Center" (Mosque) being built at the proposed location, two blocks from ground zero. I do acknowledge that the proponents of the "Cultural Center" absolutely DO have the legal right to build it there. There is no mistake about that, but here is why, IMHO, it should not be built at that location. We are constantly being preached to about the need to be sensitive to others. Where is the sensitivity to the victims families and emergency responders, not to mention the survivors of that horrendous attack. While I do not hold Islam responsible, one has to acknowledge that a fanatical interpretation of Islam did play a part at the very least. Building an Islamic "Cultural Center" at that location is not sensitive to those victims families, responders and survivors. Secondarily, have you considered what repercussions may occur, if this "Cultural Center" is allowed to be built there? Please review the link to the story from Tennessee. Do you think that there will not be such acts committed at this site? Do you not think that ht ere will be many other "protests" to the construction of this "Cultural Center" that may turn violent? Surely the right to protest the construction is no greater than the right to build. Considering ALL of the circumstances and information, I think it would be more appropriate to build the Islamic "Cultural Center" at another site. 

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #53 

softballfanatic - Should the individuals in charge decide to move this Islamic Center, mosque, or whatever, to another location at this point in the debate, they'll be acknowledging to all the Muslims in the world that their religion is appropriately offensive to some American citizens, as well as accepting some responsibility for the devastating acts of 9/11.  I'd like to believe this is a result few want to see.

Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #54 

Dewey--I understand your point. But you did not address either of my points. Why is there never any insistence on recognizing the sensitivities of the victims families, emergency responders and survivors? Why is the tolerance and sensitivity argument only recognized in one direction? What about the dangers associated with constructing the "Cultural Center" in this location? Would not the presence of the "Cultural Center" at this location promulgate a continuance of the tensions, that could simply be alleviated by building at another location? If moving the "Cultural Center" presents a problem within the Muslim community, or with Muslims abroad, is that any worse than the tensions and problems created by recognizing and respecting the sensitivites of the victims families, emergency responders and survivors?


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #55 

softballfanatic - I think we do address the sensitivities of these families.  For example, we condemn advertising showing the events of 9/11.  We cry out when they're used in political campaigns.  These are appropriate reactions to the sensitivities of the surviving families and should continue.  Concern over the location of this center does not fall into these categories, in my opinion.  Would a Muslim moving in next door to one of these families or a Quran being carried into the new buildings, once erected, be determined as offensive?  I would hope not.

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #56 
For those of you in the sensitivity debate portion of this thread, the link below will allow you to step back a few months past and see if your opinion on what is appropriate has changed, remained the same or differs with venue or victim:

http://robocoach.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=4705940&trail=30

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #57 

I guess the link to this previous thread could cut both ways. First, let me ask what exactly is the Cinco de Mayo holiday celebrating and how is sporting the stars and stripes on that day insensitive to that holiday? Secondly, since this thread was brought into this discussion, was not at least part of the reason for the administrators actions fear of the response to the action? What about, as I brought up in my earlier post, the fear of the actions that may come during and after this construction in protest! I guess one could argue, if they so desired that both sides are trying to change their spots!


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #58 
An article for your reading pleasure on the sensitivities issue.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5692446/building_a_mosque_near_ground_zero.html?cat=9

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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #59 

Bill - I think in one instance there's a little provocation or, at the very minimum, a statement being made.  As for the Islamic center, there was no thought of any wrongdoing or repercussions.  At least that's what the Imam says.  If there is a deeper and/or inconsistent correlation between these two threads, I'm missing it. 

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #60 

Quote:
Christians,Muslims, non-believers,we all need to focus on the many areas that we share with each other & not on the lesser areas that seperate us.
 


Oldscout, I hope to impress on you the danger of doing this....The area that seperates us, all, is certainly not lesser.....Many in the christian community are pushing this agenda, but, I warn you to beware.....

Jesus' followers have nothing in common with non-believers, which Muslims are....Everything we do is in worship of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour....We have no commonalities with anything non-Biblical.....



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