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JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #1 
Here is some liberal logic for you.
I have a very close friend who lost a cousin in Afghanistan yesterday. She is absolutely devastated right now.
Our wonderful president in his infinite wisdom and his deep concern for how our enemy perceives us has changed the rules of engagement. Our soldiers are not allowed to fire unless fired upon first, and even at that, they are not allowed to return fire if there are civilians near by. This is how liberals win a war? No, this is how you get our troops killed. Thank you Mr Obama.



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When Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in an empty suit and promising hope and change.

Jack Dandy
Dewey

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JD - My heart goes out to your dear friend and all others who have lost family or friends in these wars.  I know General Patreaus is running this war now and I suspect there is absolutely no way you can have all the facts regarding the death of this soldier.  Trying to place blame on President Obama will certainly bring out those who will respond with we lost thousands of young men and women in Iraq thanks to a Republican Administration.  If we ever expect to move beyond these particular debates then...well, threads like this one aren't so dandy.   

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #3 

JD lives in a cave, and obviously loves it down there.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #4 
Dandy, same thing happened in 'Nam.......

Kennedy and Johnson had those nonsensical rules of engagement with charlie.....Democrats like to do that, handcuff the troops....Well, the troops decided they would make their own rules of engagement and do the right thing, fight as they so wished........Our troops were winning every battle....So, Cronkite and Rather went to 'Nam and portrayed our troops as women and child killers and village burners...And, Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam's capital city, Hanoi, and called our troops criminals, an act of treason that went unpunished.....

Results were, Johnson was finished as a politician, as he couldn't get elected as a dog catcher....He couldn't even run for re-election....And, the people in America turned against the war.....Our troops returned home to an ungrateful America....They were ridiculed and considered outcasts....You didn't tell people you were a Vietnam veteran.....You just stayed quiet about it....

Gotta give Nixon some credit....He put an end to the madness Kennedy and Johnson created.....




JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #5 
Jack - Those are not exactly the general rules of engagement, but if they were, they would be based on the military knowledge gathered there in specific instances and not a President's call despite his Commander in Chief status, certainly not "the liberal way" or even "the conservative way" to fight a war since there is no such thing. Your post is absolutely politically motivated, demonizing, and borders on downright silly.
PS - "Do not fire until fired upon" is a method often used in the service to ferret out the enemy's position for more effective use of return fire power. It is a military strategy sometimes used when the enemy's position is not known.

Blue dog - Do I note a rather large political bias in your Nam statement? Your take on the media war and the political war in Vietnam are unbelievably slanted. "Democrats like to do that, handcuff the troops". Doggone, how did we ever win WW2?
PS - Is that "Watergate" Richard Nixon you are applauding?

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #6 

Joisey, it's easy to tell you have never been to war.....

The Commander-In-Chief absolutely does set the rules of engagement, not any military leader on the ground.....

And, your fired upon methodology is not correct....The correct version is as Dandy portrayed it, a politically correct way of getting your troops killed.....Liberal Presidents absolutely did this in 'Nam....

Sorry, just facts....

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #7 
blue - one amazing human being!  It took YOU, likely from your frequent readings, to figure out, and expose, that DEMOCRATS LOVE, not "like", to handcuff our troops whenever possible, AND hope that as many as possible never make it back here.

You are, more and more, being exposed - actually, doing the exposing, "yourself" - as a real sicko!
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #8 
Our troops in 'Nam decided for themselves to make all villages free-fire zones when they found out NVA soldiers controlled most of 'em.....Johnson, our president, had villages designated fire if fired upon.... 

Our troops were right....
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Blue dog - Do I note a rather large political bias in your Nam statement? Your take on the media war and the political war in Vietnam are unbelievably slanted.


Correct, slanted toward the truth.....
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #10 
blue dog - My service - Korean War - 1952-54. Outstanding soldier award in the second army area. Advanced infantry training. Turned down officer's candidate school at Harmony church, Ft. Benning, Georgia. I was an NCO. The tactic I mentioned was taught to us in an area of advanced infantry training called "Combat in Cities". I wore the uniform proudly and well and served my country with honor during wartime.

I will agree with you on one point. I don't believe that we have engaged in and fought well a "good" war since WW2. There is too much political interference and political purposefulness with the use of the military because of foreign policies. How often are "rules of engagement" followed to the letter in actual combat, especially Nam type combat? Don't you believe that the Commander in Chief sits with his military advisers before making "rules of engagement" statements? Yes, the buck stops here, but those policies aren't made in a vacuum. The actuality exists somewhere in between being too extra careful of "collateral damage" (dead civilians, especially women and children) and Mai Lai.

In WW2 the fire bombing of Dresden was applauded by the Allies. In today's environment it would be condemned internationally. I do find the subject matter repugnant when it is used to demonize a particular political party for political purpose though.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
bluedog - Doggone, you know a lot of "truth". First the only interpretation of the bible that is "truth" and now this. I shall not attempt in the future to butt my head against a brick wall. Be well and happy !!
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #12 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
bluedog - Doggone, you know a lot of "truth". First the only interpretation of the bible that is "truth" and now this. I shall not attempt in the future to butt my head against a brick wall. Be well and happy !!

JG- My thoughts exactly.  I think you've made a wise decision.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #13 
Nah, Joisey, the President makes those decisions....Rules of engagement come straight from the top....

Don't fire until fired upon is a policy, not a tactic and was mandated during 'Nam.......The alternative is a free-fire zone....Our troops instituted the free-fire zone themselves.....But, only after many got slaughtered by our President's policy....


indyrun

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Reply with quote  #14 
Probably the first individual (that I can recall) that makes it clear, in everything he says - ANY subject - that he is NEVER wrong. 

That, in itself, is scary.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by indyrun
Probably the first individual (that I can recall) that makes it clear, in everything he says - ANY subject - that he is NEVER wrong. 

That, in itself, is scary.
Sorry Indy there is another like that, you can hear him speak ALMOST every day on TV & from all over the country, he knows best.

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" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Probably the first individual (that I can recall) that makes it clear, in everything he says - ANY subject - that he is NEVER wrong. 

That, in itself, is scary


Well, let's see....I can listen to Indy or I can listen to God.....Uhhhhh, I choose God.....

What is unfortunate is that there are so many people who think  like Indy and Joisey who are in positions of leadership in this Country....They look to themselves for answers.....Now, that is unfortunate and, as evidenced, is a system of failure .....
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
blue dog - My service - Korean War - 1952-54. Outstanding soldier award in the second army area. Advanced infantry training. Turned down officer's candidate school at Harmony church, Ft. Benning, Georgia. I was an NCO. The tactic I mentioned was taught to us in an area of advanced infantry training called "Combat in Cities". I wore the uniform proudly and well and served my country with honor during wartime.


Unite States Marine Corps - 1970 - 1973......Was offered interview for appointment to Naval Academy - Annapolis while in boot camp.........Turned down interview....Won nothing outstanding.....Served as enlisted, completed radio communications school and served 12 month tour overseas, field battalion radio operator with 1st Battalion/Ninth Marines, 3rd Marine Division, Alpha infantry Raider Company........Most important luxury was sleep and dry socks, rarely had either....But, always had extra battery for my radio.....My radio was also my pillow.....Almost got to a Bob Hope show but got stuck with perimeter guard duty and gave up my ticket....The Marine who went in my place loved the show....

Went over on the USS Okinawa, a helicopter carrier, now a reef somewhere....

Got discharged in San Francisco....Came home to a world oblivious, uncaring and uninterested in the troops......And, life went on.....  



JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #18 
bluedog - Congratulations on your service and coming home alive. Yes, and life went on. For some, including some of my good friends, it did not. I'm grateful that mine went on. I never felt that anyone owed me anything for simply serving my country.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #19 

So am I....For you, that is....

Graybeard

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Reply with quote  #20 

Bluedog, I too read The Book, daily. I don't recall reading Our Lord's specific guidance re "free-fire zones" but I think His Message is loud and clear...


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indyrun

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Reply with quote  #21 

Dandy - why do you keep re-creating the "same thread" over and over again? New threads "generally" have a new name/subject.

We are up to three Liberal Logic by Jack Dandy threads - WHY (doesn't take much from a right winger to make me grumpy - or grumpier)?

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #22 

Quote:
Probably the first individual (that I can recall) that makes it clear, in everything he says - ANY subject - that he is NEVER wrong.  


Indy, I'm only saying what God tells us in the Bible, His Written Word....Your comments explain God well.....

I'm simply a broken, un-righteous and sinful messenger, that's all I am....Without God using His Grace by sending us the Sacrificial Lamb to die for our sins, I would die forever in my sin.....

But here's what the Bible says: "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool" (Proverbs 28:26). The enemy of discernment is trusting in your own heart. Our heart is deceitful because it is desperately sick with sin.

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