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SoftballFamily

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Reply with quote  #61 
 B Standby: Nobody is saying that everyone is entitled to equal playing time, etc.  We're not talking about those types of situations - it's about genuine abuse.   You are taking things out of context and taking it to a level of ridiculousness that is unnecessary.  


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #62 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftballFamily
 B Standby: Nobody is saying that everyone is entitled to equal playing time, etc.  We're not talking about those types of situations - it's about genuine abuse.   You are taking things out of context and taking it to a level of ridiculousness that is unnecessary.  


Agreed - when you lump in reps in practice and playing time with the actual abuse that is taking place, it loses some of its authenticity.  


3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #63 


TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD

As to not getting play or practice time due to perceived underdeveloped skills....the 'abuse' part is when there is no evidence or proof of lack of skills Go to a practice of any team, it is pretty easy to see who is on what end of the spectrum.  It is used as a tool of CONTROL and punishment to keep the athletes who are playing in line. 

Everyone selected to the roster came with enough skills to be trained and developed  Not necessarily true.  Do you think the guy at the end of Kentucky's basketball bench has "enough skills" to play for John C?.  And if they can't demonstrate growth or ability then they need to be cut What if they are happy being practice players or riding the bench?  It's not a bad gig some places.  Coaches have guidelines in place for cutting players.  (The majority of whom are not receiving any or significant athletic scholarships anyway).  So their experience is of less importance than those getting significant money?  Talk about abuse...

WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #65 
I think your red response above is a bit muddled.
-yes, there is a skills spectrum but if the coach doesn't think a players is good enough to develop or play then they should be cut....why keep them for the ride?  Even if they are happy to to go along for it?  Are they there just for the express purpose to be kicked by the coach?

Money or no money, being on the team can be rewarding. 
It's not abuse to let a player know where they stand and what they need to do to stay on the team, and play.
Unless what they need to do is unethical or also a form of abuse...like being the player who reports on their team mates to help the coach divide the team.

TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #66 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
I think your red response above is a bit muddled.  Not muddled, you just don't agree.  That's ok.
-yes, there is a skills spectrum but if the coach doesn't think a players is good enough to develop or play then they should be cut....why keep them for the ride?  Maybe they like the kid or are required to have a certain number by admin  Even if they are happy to to go along for it?  Are they there just for the express purpose to be kicked by the coach?  Not playing or receiving reps in practice isn't "kicked" by the coach, it's reality.

Money or no money, being on the team can be rewarding.  The rare valid point.  you are the one that said to cut  the kids with little or no money.  seems you are changing your tone.
It's not abuse to let a player know where they stand and what they need to do to stay on the team, and play.  Agree, but as Coach pointed out, some would consider truths to be abusive.
Unless what they need to do is unethical or also a form of abuse...like being the player who reports on their team mates to help the coach divide the team.

1janiedough

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Reply with quote  #67 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
Looks like the only acceptable alternative is for a coach to be a cheerleader.  One example for this statement is the verbal abuse comment about "hurtful comments."  Sue, you are being replaced in the 4th inning by Jean.  Coach why?  You didn't seem to be focused on the game.  Coach, that is a hurtful comment.  Another example would be a coach who makes some requirement such as a 7 minute mile a requirement to make the team.  "Coach, I can't run a 7 minute mile."  Coach, well there are reasons for that.  ... That was a hurtful comment and you set an unrealistic goal for me.  One more for the road, "Team, if we can't get more focused in practice, we are going to run."  Coach, that is bullying.  

My daughter played collegiate softball.  Sure there were times we, as parents, were upset.  Still, my daughter went in and talked to the coach about this or that and tried to take care of her teammates.  She was taught early on to speak up.  When she picked a college team and coach to play for, she did her homework and knew what to expect.  Hey, lets face it, sometimes this adversity is unjustified and coaches need to be fired.  Then again, sometimes our daughters need a kick in the butt.

I played in college for a hard ass.  I knew exactly what I was getting in to.  I knew when I was going to be punished and when the team was going to be punished.  I knew that if it became too much, I had a way out.  




Nailed it!   Man, this generation of parents and their soft children are over the top ridiculous with their butthurt over everything...it's as if they cannot live life on life's terms...at all.

Scary!
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #68 
not trying to get into a dissection of words.  being on the team can be rewarding when one is not being abused
abuse is not just an action it is an 'intention' and a behavior that is unacceptable

we all agree that abuse is open to interpretation.  you can have good coaches that are tough and bad coaches who are lenient.
without the specifics no one on this forum can judge.

some people will think that the future of sport is in line with Respect for Players, separating funding from performance as judged by the coach and making it more like being paid as a job, and positive long term development

some people will think that the future of women's athletics is in being stronger, tougher, mentally harder

players and families should know what they are signing up for through research.

But EVERYBODY has to stop sweeping issues under the rug and perpetuating the illusion that abuse of athletes is acceptable because it is the nature of sports.
Coaches need to be qualified including mental health checks and any other checks that professors and people in authority over vulnerable youth/young adults require.
Schools should share information about why a coach is let go, not just try to avoid law suits by giving soft reasons when the actual reasons are much more serious.

I would recommend that there be a neutral Ombudsperson for athletes that they can go to.  Since NCAA is not neutral and administrations are fearful of lawsuits if they support the athlete.

If I didn't think that improvement was possible then I never would have pursued this issue.
In all aspects we have already moved on from the experience other than to add our voice to an official record on file against what many independent organizations agree is abuse under several definitions of it.  Even if the coach, AD, and many posters on this thread think is not.

Thanks for the use recommendations posted and sent via PM.
Have at 'er with the remainder of your discussions.  WWCDD over and out.
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #69 
Note: for every one of me there are 10 of "Anonymous"  (below)
Which, I think, outnumbers the people advocating for keeping the status quo of 'suck it up buttercup'.

Hi WWCDD - I have been following your thread, and I can tell you 100 percent that everything you are saying is spot on.  WE have experience this first hand and the worst level and I want to thank you for posting links etc.  We are currently in a battle to "expose" the situation regardless of the outcome, because we too, are just sick to death of being beat up......

I wish I had the nerve to tell a few people off.  It's always so simple for them, gotta be a whiny kid or helicopter parent.  I can tell you, our kid isn't whiny and we don't helicopter.  Truth is, we stayed silent way too long.....but no longer.

Thank you again for being braver than I.
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
Your links reference things like bathrooms.  I didn't see one mention of athletics.  One link was on cuts to departments and every department is undergoing cuts.  One of your links uses CNN as its references and they are not reliable as a news source.  So, there is all of that.  If I have made a mistake and those links reference athletics, I will apologize.  


The Office of Civil Rights is responsible for investigating/enforcing Title IX complaints/infractions. Most of these abuse firings/forced resignations in women's sports have Title IX implications (and schools trying to avoid possible Title IX lawsuits). Other civil rights laws and sub-agencies can come into play. Trump, at the very least, looks to want to slash civil rights investigation/enforcement across the federal government (including in the Dept. of Education).
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #71 
I'm actually somewhere in the middle on this. I have no problem with "tough, but fair" (disciplinarian) coaches, as long as players and parents know what they're getting into (instead, having met Dr. Jeckle in their living room, only to discover, too late, Mr. Hyde in the locker room or on the practice court). Truth in advertising, in other words.

Preaching a "team" ethic is fine, as long as it doesn't lead to scapegoating and targeting of any who don't fit an exact mold.

Expletives are fine, language need not be sanitized of all "grit" - simple tact, however, advises avoiding words carrying over/undertones of gender or racial bias.

Not all abuse complaints are valid, even though, I'm sure valid complaints often get shelved, not listened to, or even retaliated against.

I am critical of some aspects of Title IX, especially when it comes to what is often termed as "reverse discrimination" against many male athletes who don't happen to be football or basketball players. Heck, I'd like to see college football go back to its "single-platoon" roots, with all but a handful of players playing both ways, an aerobic rather than anaerobic sport, and thus needing much smaller rosters and scholarship numbers (while hopefully also reducing concussions and steroid abuse).
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #72 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftballFamily
Go play rec ball??  You condone this type of behavior on the part of a coach?? Seriously??  You want your daughter treated that way???  Would you tell her to basically suck it up, or get out?? After years of hard work, lessons, travel, and recruiting??  In other words, blame the victim.  Have you not read any of the other posts?? I really hate when people say "go play rec ball" or " then don't play the sport if you can't take the stress, etc"   These players are not in a position of strength against coaches who's tactics are detrimental the overall well being of the player, the team, or the university for which they work.  And - you took ONE example and make it appear as though the entire document is worthless.  FYI: this kind of verbal and emotional abuse takes place at ALL levels of college sports - D1 through D3 and NAIA.  I've seen it, I know other families and players who have dealt with it and these are not wimpy crybaby girls.  If you have made it to college level sports, you have had to have developed a thick skin.  We're talking about coaches in college who get their jollies giving crap to players for who knows what reason: maybe they love the power, they have personality traits where they enjoy making others feel like less than what they are, they are insecure in their own coaching abilities, or maybe they need to make themselves feel superior by making their other coaches and players feel inferior.  I have no idea - but I have witnessed this firsthand.  I doubt any player truly wants to be the one singled out and the subject of this type of abuse - but telling them to "go play rec ball" belittles what they are or have been experiencing.  


So if a college baseball or softball player is perceived to not be able to hit because he or she is below the Mendoza line, strikes out flailing at every curveball outside the zone and doesn't hit well in practice, that player shouldn't be made to sit in the dugout while another player who can actually hits the ball plays?

I'm with the 'go play intramurals' crowd on that.

Yes, a level of performance is and should be expected of a college athlete. Some players work extra hard -- come early and stay late -- to iron out problems to get better. Should they sit behind someone who hasn't done these things, who still haven't ironed out those problems in some odd sense of "fairness"?

Playing time is not a right. It's earned. It's based on production and potential ... yes, a coach might stick with a kid who he or she believes will break out of that slump, but not likely for long if there's a better option on the bench who is being productive.

This is college sports. Not participation-trophy rec league.
Prowler

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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
The whole team is subjected to different spectrums of the abusive behavior.  So, the whole team would have to get sent to rec softball. 

As to not getting play or practice time due to perceived underdeveloped skills....the 'abuse' part is when there is no evidence or proof of lack of skills.  It is used as a tool of CONTROL and punishment to keep the athletes who are playing in line. 

Everyone selected to the roster came with enough skills to be trained and developed.  And if they can't demonstrate growth or ability then they need to be cut.  Coaches have guidelines in place for cutting players.  (The majority of whom are not receiving any or significant athletic scholarships anyway).

Playing on a college athletic team is pretty much like working full time while going to school.  And many athletes work in addition to both of those activities.  It's a bit of bulls**t to say that on top of all that they should be treated without respect because that's what separates the REAL athletes from the recreational ones.

Cutting all the eloquent language aside, players and parents can tell when an old school tough disciplinarian is developing a team and demanding excellence even if they are rough about it....or if they are sadistically manipulating the team under the guise of being tough/militaristic.  It's much easier to choose to leave a job with a bad boss than it is to leave a team with a bad coach. 

I agree with an earlier comment that identifies that, even though these athletes are adults, there is a huge power imbalance that works against them. 

The school has let down the coach and the players by not supporting both sides to be better.


Again, specifically what sort of abuse are you alleging your daughter has experienced (not what she or other people claim others on the team are going through, but your own daughter)?

Some of your posts seem to indicate that "there's no proof my daughter isn't good enough to play, so she should get more playing time." That's not abuse. That's reality. College sports doesn't guarantee everyone on the team to get equal reps in games or practice. Sorry.
rudymartinez

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Posts: 326
Reply with quote  #74 
Scholarships are a lot like marriage, it should be a legal contract. Lots of wooing, chasing and promises. But when it becomes acrimonious, someone has to pay. That's where the lawyers come into play. No one needs a lawyer , until you need a lawyer. I promise to have and to hold, until four years do we part. You may now list the player.
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #75 
I will share specifics with our legal representative.
But looking at the Types and Definitions of Abuse from the Women's Sport Foundation we have documented the following:
- name calling, degrading comments about performance, exploding at officials and players, demeaning commentary (often)
-expecting athletes to work past the point where they are becoming injured in both practice and games
-issuing threats
-interfering with academic learning
-unreasonable addition of practice times with no notice and then punishment for anyone who didn't participate
-continual bullying by the coach, and demanding that the captains and assistants not only bully specific players but report back to her and then disciplining for minor infractions but only the bullied players while allowing the favored players leeway or rewards
-blaming benched players for losses and making examples of them when the game is going poorly

Then there are just the examples of poor coaching that aren't specifically abusive.  Just weak and unproductive.
CoachB25

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Posts: 214
Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
I will share specifics with our legal representative.
But looking at the Types and Definitions of Abuse from the Women's Sport Foundation we have documented the following:
- name calling, degrading comments about performance, exploding at officials and players, demeaning commentary (often)
-expecting athletes to work past the point where they are becoming injured in both practice and games
-issuing threats
-interfering with academic learning
-unreasonable addition of practice times with no notice and then punishment for anyone who didn't participate
-continual bullying by the coach, and demanding that the captains and assistants not only bully specific players but report back to her and then disciplining for minor infractions but only the bullied players while allowing the favored players leeway or rewards
-blaming benched players for losses and making examples of them when the game is going poorly

Then there are just the examples of poor coaching that aren't specifically abusive.  Just weak and unproductive.


IMO, you are going to have a tough time with this.  If you have something like violating NCAA guidelines, for example practice time allowable, that will help your case.  Then again, you have to prove it.  When you say a coach is "interfering with academic learning" I don't know how you prove that.  Again, if this is tied into violating NCAA Guidelines then you have a better chance of winning.  Comments about performance is a coaching thing.  What would you expect a coach to do?  Would you have a coach rah rah for a player while all the time think what they didn't say and then bench the player?  When you say "examples of poor coaching," that is opinion.  IMO, at least half of this list can be "explained away" and so, you have a small set to draw from that might be substantiated.

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DonnieS

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazsdad
You must have been a joy to have on a team back in your kids TB days.


In addition, there are now more windmills than ever.  Enjoy.

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WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #78 
I'm leaving out the specifics and strongest allegations. It won't be easy. It would be helpful for other players to come forward. We have some players statements already. I posted the question to learn from other people's experiences.
CrowHop

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Reply with quote  #79 
It's no wonder coaches avoid, or should avoid, "high-maintenance" players like the plague.  
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Your pitcher is illegal.
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #80 
May as well shut it all down because I can almost guarantee that a huge number of coaches out there are guilty of violations of that "code" that was linked.
One mans abuse is another mans day in the life. Sports, work, social, it doesn't matter.
But please, carry on with your quest. Maybe it will help diminish future opportunities for other players
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #81 
Time will tell which coaching techniques create the best experience when judged against:
  • wins vs. losses
  • personal development
  • financial goals of the coach/school/player
  • enjoyment/fulfillment
  • future opportunities in life


A losing team may be a great experience in all other categories and a winning team may be a life-scarring journey to make it through four years.  Most are somewhere in between.

But I'd love to see a study comparing brutal coaching to positive coaching styles and see which teams lead in the standings as a result.  I suspect that the brutal bullying old school coaches are racing to the bottom of the standings one sad sorry season at a time trying to whip the players into compliance instead of fostering their talent, athleticism and sportsmanship.

I'm glad I'm not your child....to those who believe that an ability to tolerate abuse as a young man or woman and a let-them-take-it parenting style is what makes them great future adults. 
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #82 
WWCD, if I may be so bold to ask, how much playing time did your daughter get?
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #83 
On average the same as the other players in her year.
This isn't about playing time...there were no promises or expectations around that.
It's about the coach lying, manipulating, deceiving, degrading, demeaning, and using players against each other to support her own agenda which had very little to do with team development and very much to do with setting herself up to jump ship to a new opportunity.  But the team didn't respond to her techniques and failed to help her escape because she not only didn't deliver, she created an environment that makes her a hot potato to anyone who would consider hiring her for their school.  She's a walking lawsuit to any institution...and likely I won't have to do anything but wait.  Since the trail is getting more and more obvious to everyone anyway.
1janiedough

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Posts: 2,457
Reply with quote  #84 
"a winning team may be a life-scarring journey to make it through four years."

Life scarring?  Good lord, utter rubbish.  Life scarring is witnessing a murder or growing up in the ghetto.  What you speak of is in no way shape or form life scarring!

Wtf!!!!
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #85 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
On average the same as the other players in her year.
This isn't about playing time.


That's not really an answer.  

How about this - 

a)  Full-time
b)  Half-time
c)  Part-time
d)  Not at all

This will surely help give some of us, and potentially some of those thinking of responding to you, some much needed background.
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #86 
To those who were scarred by this coach, I will not betray your confidences that have been shared privately with me for the sake of this forum just to prove the devastating seriousness of what emotional, psychological, and verbal abuse can do. 

To those who want more specific details about my daughter.  I will not betray her either.
My question was simple, can anyone refer me to a lawyer.
It was a bonus to get other insights as well.
I'm well aware that there are opposing opinions.

I'd suggest that this topic close.  I won't be baited to continue it myself.
Feel free to continue the dialogue without me.
CrowHop

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Reply with quote  #87 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
Time will tell which coaching techniques create the best experience when judged against:
  • wins vs. losses
  • personal development
  • financial goals of the coach/school/player
  • enjoyment/fulfillment
  • future opportunities in life

 


Guess which one of the above is all but the sole determinant for whether a coach keeps xer job or not?  Go ahead, I'll wait.

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Your pitcher is illegal.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
I'd suggest that this topic close. 


You have that power. Delete your original post and all goes into the interwebs ether with it.

Don't worry about losing content germane to conversation regarding this subject. The general issue has been debated ad nauseum in this forum. By your comments, it would appear anonymity is of utmost importance. Removal of this thread decreases any chance of a splintered detail leading in revelation as to your identity.

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Bill Smith
West Bay Nuggets
NorCal Women's Fastpitch Summer League
info: nuggetsoftball@aol.com

Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
jayrot

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Posts: 17,009
Reply with quote  #89 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith


You have that power. Delete your original post and all goes into the interwebs ether with it.

Don't worry about losing content germane to conversation regarding this subject. The general issue has been debated ad nauseum in this forum. By your comments, it would appear anonymity is of utmost importance. Removal of this thread decreases any chance of a splintered detail leading in revelation as to your identity.

Where have you been?
uwApoligist

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Posts: 6,150
Reply with quote  #90 
Not as gone as you think it is. google has it cached as well. 
http://web.archive.org/web/20170707182355/http://robocoach.websitetoolbox.com/post/lawyer-referral-8585356



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 So suck it, even though in your case it taste  like plastic. 
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