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CoachB25

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Reply with quote  #91 
WWCDD, I hope you viewed my last post as an attempt to be helpful.  

Personally, I would not be the type of coach you would want your child to play for.  I am extremely focused.  I am intense.  I don't say please.  I say things like a player will, "do what I say to do, when I say to do it and exactly how I say to do it."  Still having said that, I am pretty popular with my players.  They understand the difference between the madness and the guy that has their back at every turn.  They understand the "family" aspect and the power of 20 acting as 1 as opposed to 20 acting as 20.  They know I will never lie to them and if I have to be brutally honest, expect it.  They know that no one is safe that messes with them.   There are people on this site that have followed my teams for 20 years.  They can verify all of this.  WWCDD, the problem is, there is no way that the casual observer "gets the madness."  A part of me thinks the same of what you observe.  However, and I sincerely mean this, if there is abuse, good luck!

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Those mountains in front of you will seem like little hills when you are beyond them and they are in the past!
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachB25
WWCDD, I hope you viewed my last post as an attempt to be helpful.  

Personally, I would not be the type of coach you would want your child to play for.  I am extremely focused.  I am intense.  I don't say please.  I say things like a player will, "do what I say to do, when I say to do it and exactly how I say to do it."  Still having said that, I am pretty popular with my players.  They understand the difference between the madness and the guy that has their back at every turn.  They understand the "family" aspect and the power of 20 acting as 1 as opposed to 20 acting as 20.  They know I will never lie to them and if I have to be brutally honest, expect it.  They know that no one is safe that messes with them.   There are people on this site that have followed my teams for 20 years.  They can verify all of this.  WWCDD, the problem is, there is no way that the casual observer "gets the madness."  A part of me thinks the same of what you observe.  However, and I sincerely mean this, if there is abuse, good luck!
A-freaking-MEN

A fine parenting template, too
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #93 
Coach B25.  My daughter would have had no problem with someone straight up honest with demanding expectations.  She would have accepted the challenge and improved to earn every opportunity available.  All of her previous coaches rated her top of the list for coachability, dedication, hard work, and game sense.  Teams from years past still pick her up due to her reliability, skill and ability to fit in with different coaching styles and quickly adapt to team dynamics.  She is very well liked by her current team and now even more-so respected since she is standing up for them.  If the coach had sat her down and said, you looked good when i picked you but you're just not good enough to play at this level..you should really consider dropping out of the team because there is no future for you here" then she would have been sad and accepted it.  Maybe found another place to go.  But the coach didn't do that, she just kept treating her like the family whipping boy then giving her hope then whipping her (figuratively) and taking out her frustration with the team on her and anyone else who wasn't important for her to keep on her side.  The lesson was 'don't approach, don't cross the coach'.  I observed my daughter being first out, first off, biggest smile, non-stop cheering, zero questions, always positive for 3 days straight and yet she still got the brunt of most negative actions after losing games.  Despite the errors and bad moods being held by other team mates.  It was never about playing 'time'.  Some of the reasons given for 'not' getting put in to some games were ludicrous.  It's not the not getting put in, it's the insane justification for it and the other girls saw how illogical it was and knew that merit and hard work and skill are NOT what gets play time.  Which, in fact, broke the team this season.  Because they went there to play the game of softball, not to play the 'game' of not getting on coaches evil Mr. Hyde side.  Go ahead be Mr. Hyde all the time consistently to everyone.  People know how to adapt to that.  Don't be something to some people or different things to same people.

Under a different coach she would have been an optimal choice for a Captain.
Under the current situation she is being perceived as a threat since she will not allow herself or her team mates to be disrespected or used.
The situation existed before she arrived and even the ones in her favor are hoping someone will finally find the team a coach who will come to develop a long lasting program not just harvest a single crop take the money and run.  Virtually zero training and development were executed this season.  Just reps.  Coaching was "called-in" for the most part.  And anyone asking for development never got it.  The coach was completely unapproachable for discussion on any topic other than how big the selfie smile was in the last photo.  Evaluations were just opportunities for the coach to make more threats, not to seriously see what the players needed to improve.

There, you drew me in again!  But I repeat.  Honest, tough, coaches, no problem. 
These opinions and observations were shared with me through conversations with the team players and parents.  AS well as former ones.
Some parents said "my daughter is not getting singled out so I'm keeping my head down".  Those parents knew that others were being targeted and as long as it wasn't their daughter they were keeping silent.  But the didn't deny it was going on, only that as long as it wasn't their kid they weren't going to rock the boat.  And even now, I could just let it go, but I won't let those other girls down who have parents who are afraid.  Enough of them have contacted me with thanks to assure me this is not just my opinion.  And it's not like the team 'improved' under this coach in the standings.  So, like I said earlier, the school may let her go for that reason, but that won't be good enough for me.  Other schools need to know what goes on under her coaching.

I'll let the topic stand.  But I'm turning off notifications!  This is too distracting and is just making me angry all over again.
You GOOD coaches out there....keep up the good work!!  You bad-ass parents who think athletics is some Darwinian death match of survival of the fittest, I hope you live out your utopian dreams of raising a daughter who thinks seeing team mates getting trampled by their leader to make your egos bigger so that you'll love them more...I hope you learn humility some day and that your character is truly tested by humanity.  It's not the size of your bat, it's how you swing it.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #94 
jayrot- Assuming you are asking about my inactivity and not a lack of understanding how the internet works... [biggrin]

This will be the second summer we've not held a women's league in Nor Cal. Miss the coaches, families and most of all the players who shared their sheer joy for the game each season. However, my kid stopped coaching and it was getting difficult to put the pieces together each summer.

That said, daughter has taken steps to be involved in the high school softball arena. Perhaps I'll visit UCS more often in the near future.

uwApoligist- Am aware of the 'wayback machine' features of the internet. Many archive sites only bounce inquiries back to the original website. Further aware of sites that more fully archive in detail, thus my 'interwebs ether" reference. Deleting this thread would force someone to pointedly drag the information back to the surface. Far different than having this thread lurking on a very popular softball website. 

One of those archive sites listed the IP sites of each individual poster. Made for some interesting revelations regarding those that posted on the Misc. section of this forum. 

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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
jayrot

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Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSmith
jayrot- Assuming you are asking about my inactivity and not a lack of understanding how the internet works... [biggrin]

This will be the second summer we've not held a women's league in Nor Cal. Miss the coaches, families and most of all the players who shared their sheer joy for the game each season. However, my kid stopped coaching and it was getting difficult to put the pieces together each summer.

That said, daughter has taken steps to be involved in the high school softball arena. Perhaps I'll visit UCS more often in the near future.

uwApoligist- Am aware of the 'wayback machine' features of the internet. Many archive sites only bounce inquiries back to the original website. Further aware of sites that more fully archive in detail, thus my 'interwebs ether" reference. Deleting this thread would force someone to pointedly drag the information back to the surface. Far different than having this thread lurking on a very popular softball website. 

One of those archive sites listed the IP sites of each individual poster. Made for some interesting revelations regarding those that posted on the Misc. section of this forum. 


The internet works??

And great news with the DD!
AustinSoftball

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Posts: 115
Reply with quote  #96 
An top high school once told me that 3/4 of college coaches are pretty bad at their jobs.  A solid percentage are just not smart.  Others have personality problems.  Campus visits and getting to know current and former players is key to researching any program.  We were fortunate to have had two smart coaches who care about players.  But our friends had some pretty bad experiences.  Some of these included shaming.  If the coach is breaking university and NCAA laws or worse federal and state laws, by all means seek the advice of a lawyer.  Those people need to be weeded out of the system.  The bottom line is if you are not getting the experience out of the sport that you want, the students should focus on so many other things universities have to offer.  
Kurosawa

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Reply with quote  #97 
In general, I suspect that it is likely that those who: 1) abuse, were abused, 2) shame, were shamed, 3) bully, were bullied, 4) haze, were hazed. Unless you stop the merry-go-round, it just keeps going round and round.
CoachB25

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Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #98 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa
In general, I suspect that it is likely that those who: 1) abuse, were abused, 2) shame, were shamed, 3) bully, were bullied, 4) haze, were hazed. Unless you stop the merry-go-round, it just keeps going round and round.


I think that this is a good point.  IOWs, some people do what the know.  That goes back to the old coaching adage that, "it's all that has worked in the past so it is all that will ever work."  Most of us know that this is wrong but try to convince some of this.  You'd have better luck trying to convince everyone I'm good looking and that  is ...

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Those mountains in front of you will seem like little hills when you are beyond them and they are in the past!
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #99 
You are expressing my thoughts exactly.  Which is why the situation is sad on both sides.

We are taking steps to remove my daughter from the situation and push for the coach to be removed from the team to protect future players.  But in an ideal world:

1) The school never would have hired her or supported her against my daughter/team
2) The school, if deciding to keep her, would do more than just 'watch and wait' for the transgressions to get worse and have cause to fire her in the future....although, we heard that the 'micro-managing' did in fact accelerate the poor behavior if your goal is to push her out faster.  Taking action to increase the craziness just puts more girls at risk.
   
I think there is a duty of care for the academic institution to show that they care about people in their employ and provide the counseling and support to help coaches learn how their actions and behavior are inappropriate to collegiate competitive sport.  And to make it clear in their job description that the job is not just to recruit players and deploy them for tactical advantage in the War Games version of softball, but to develop them as people, players, team mates and citizens who work together to achieve goals.  It's why good teams also have high GPA's at college because they use these lessons in their potential degrees and classroom situations, too.  Good athletes thrive because they are also strong leaders who have confidence in who they are.  They can model the strength of the coach and not the manipulative covering up of failed character. (Which the girls who can claim 'success' on these teams can use it to justify their own future poor treatment of people in their care).

So, when a coach rules by attacking self-esteem, confidence, and makes it clear through actions and words that she wants other team mates to treat some of their players as 'less' than worthy, this achieves the opposite. 

There are respectful ways of helping players know that they do not meet the expectations of the program (if they don't legitimately meet them which was always also in question as to the motive for the attacks since the pattern over many teams was that it was often talented players who got targeted which points to even bigger issues than just old school insensitivity). 

Apologies in advance to offending adults who think this is creating a nanny-state and that softball should be a much more die-hard event that teaches girls to be physically tough without any allowance made for internal character.  It's why SURVIVOR is always pitting brains against brawn and in the end the winners were the ones who excelled at the 'social' game no matter which camp they started in.

(It's why Japanese work teams nearly wiped out the American muscle car until U.S. manufacturers started to modify their production methods to actually recognize their workers as a resource and not just a tool).
ultsoftballparent

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Reply with quote  #100 
Great post!!!  You are total on point!!!!
Maybe the universities should educated young female athletes about prohibited behavior so they are not in the blind!!!
WWCDD

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #101 
after everything went down, I discovered a program that talks about prohibited behavior and it was a total eye opener, so, I agree with you that it should be mandatory and would support the players to understand what is acceptable.  the info transfers nicely to having healthy boundaries in relationships and employers, too.
1janiedough

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Posts: 2,537
Reply with quote  #102 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
You are expressing my thoughts exactly.  Which is why the situation is sad on both sides.

We are taking steps to remove my daughter from the situation and push for the coach to be removed from the team to protect future players.  But in an ideal world:

1) The school never would have hired her or supported her against my daughter/team
2) The school, if deciding to keep her, would do more than just 'watch and wait' for the transgressions to get worse and have cause to fire her in the future....although, we heard that the 'micro-managing' did in fact accelerate the poor behavior if your goal is to push her out faster.  Taking action to increase the craziness just puts more girls at risk.
   
I think there is a duty of care for the academic institution to show that they care about people in their employ and provide the counseling and support to help coaches learn how their actions and behavior are inappropriate to collegiate competitive sport.  And to make it clear in their job description that the job is not just to recruit players and deploy them for tactical advantage in the War Games version of softball, but to develop them as people, players, team mates and citizens who work together to achieve goals.  It's why good teams also have high GPA's at college because they use these lessons in their potential degrees and classroom situations, too.  Good athletes thrive because they are also strong leaders who have confidence in who they are.  They can model the strength of the coach and not the manipulative covering up of failed character. (Which the girls who can claim 'success' on these teams can use it to justify their own future poor treatment of people in their care).

So, when a coach rules by attacking self-esteem, confidence, and makes it clear through actions and words that she wants other team mates to treat some of their players as 'less' than worthy, this achieves the opposite. 

There are respectful ways of helping players know that they do not meet the expectations of the program (if they don't legitimately meet them which was always also in question as to the motive for the attacks since the pattern over many teams was that it was often talented players who got targeted which points to even bigger issues than just old school insensitivity). 

Apologies in advance to offending adults who think this is creating a nanny-state and that softball should be a much more die-hard event that teaches girls to be physically tough without any allowance made for internal character.  It's why SURVIVOR is always pitting brains against brawn and in the end the winners were the ones who excelled at the 'social' game no matter which camp they started in.

(It's why Japanese work teams nearly wiped out the American muscle car until U.S. manufacturers started to modify their production methods to actually recognize their workers as a resource and not just a tool).



Your situation is the exception, not the rule by far.
WWCDD

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #103 
Would love to see a version of this Ted-Ed piece done with a specific focus on Softball Coaches who abuse their power just for self-promotion:

https://ed.ted.com/lessons/the-psychology-of-narcissism-w-keith-campbell

TheNarrator

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Posts: 4,028
Reply with quote  #104 
What about one on parents and players that get coaches fired because they don't get enough playing time or aren't "nice" enough?
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Dewey on victims of sexual assault:  Both women later switched their stories.  Was there a reward or something else behind their change?  Who knows?
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #105 
My experience at the parks is that there are a whole lot more prima-donna parents for whom their progeny's poop don't stink than there are actually abusive coaches. And those apples don't fall too far from the tree
WWCDD

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Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #106 
I promise to monitor the situation for the next few years and get back to you with the consensus on which shoe fits this coach.
If it turns out that it's just a lot of feeble low-skilled over-entitled sensitive girls who can't cut it at the competitive level and selfish litigious parents with an axe to grind, I will certainly post to say that "I'm sorry we ever tried to enlighten anyone....please do keep all of the systems in place that encourage this coaching style".
3leftturns

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Reply with quote  #107 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
I promise to monitor the situation for the next few years and get back to you with the consensus on which shoe fits this coach.
If it turns out that it's just a lot of feeble low-skilled over-entitled sensitive girls who can't cut it at the competitive level and selfish litigious parents with an axe to grind, I will certainly post to say that "I'm sorry we ever tried to enlighten anyone....please do keep all of the systems in place that encourage this coaching style".
Precisely the sort of spew I would expect from that sort of aforementioned proud papa
TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #108 
In a few years we should look for a list of "abusive" employers.
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Dewey on victims of sexual assault:  Both women later switched their stories.  Was there a reward or something else behind their change?  Who knows?
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #109 
Thanks for the tip!
I've always thought collegiate sports is more like a job that should pay...
We should ask for 8 weeks of paid education:  https://www.blr.com/HR-Employment/Health-Safety/Violence-in-the-Workplace-in-Pennsylvania#

TheNarrator

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Reply with quote  #110 
I'm sure your daughters future employer will end up on here if he asked her to work late, or doesn't give her the promotion you think she deserves.
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Dewey on victims of sexual assault:  Both women later switched their stories.  Was there a reward or something else behind their change?  Who knows?
3leftturns

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Posts: 11,426
Reply with quote  #111 
It is a job that pays. Not having to pay off 10 years of a major loan for that degree IS payment

JMO
CrowHop

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Reply with quote  #112 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
Thanks for the tip!
I've always thought collegiate sports is more like a job that should pay...
We should ask for 8 weeks of paid education:  https://www.blr.com/HR-Employment/Health-Safety/Violence-in-the-Workplace-in-Pennsylvania#



You should ask for a class on how to get a clue.

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Your pitcher is illegal.
SoftballFamily

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Posts: 30
Reply with quote  #113 
These idiotic and nasty responses that have now gone on for 4 pages are reasons why people who have legitimate questions don't want to post on here - or heaven forbid, a newcomer actually posts a question and doesn't realize they are about to be beaten over the head!!  Some of you people are just plain old jerks!   
Buffy

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Posts: 60
Reply with quote  #114 
That is so true. Most of these people are on the outside thinking they know everything and I have to chuckle reading most of these posts in how LITTLE they even know. And if anyone who is on the inside that actually does know what is going on and if you post anything, you will be attacked. By the way have you found a lawyer? Because I might need a name.
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #115 
They only suggestion that I had was this so far: http://www.greenberglawoffice.com/
PhoenixPhan

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Reply with quote  #116 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowler
I'd like to know specifics of exactly what, in this case, the OP considers abusive behavior.


So it has been a while since I have been on the site and I have missed quite a bit!  I would like to post what I considered to be physical abuse of athletes, but I will leave it up to others to come up with a legitimate reason for this "drill".

A freshman catcher who had started 21 of the first 41 games (splitting time with an all-conf returner) infuriated and "consistently disappointed" the head coach.  Another player who did not catch was also in the same boat.  The HC made both players put on catcher's gear and went to the bullpen with the pitchers.  No other players participated in this drill.  The HC proceeded to stack up tires on both sides of home plate approximately 6 inches off the plate.  The pitchers were then instructed to throw fast balls and curve balls between the corner of the plate and the tires.  The girls in catcher's gear were instructed to catch or block every ball.  The catchers came away from the drill with multiple bruises and seam marks on them from taking the equivalent of foul tip after foul tip.  After the drill, neither player played another game for the rest of the season.  The freshman catcher requested a transfer prior to the end of the season and the utility player quit.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and after talking with many parents over the years, this is more of the norm than the exception.  Most people will not say anything publicly because they know that things will only get worse or they will be bullied and criticized.

For those of you that think this type of behavior should be tolerated because a player is getting scholarship money...
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #117 
Part of catcher training that I have seen is to basically have a pitching machine do the same thing and the catchers are instructed to NOT catch the ball but to let it hit them/block it with their body.  My assumption was that it trains them not to flinch or turn away...so that when they do start actually catching their brain is trained to be steady/ready.  I never considered this abuse.  When I am talking about abuse the difference is in the attitude of the coach.  Did they do it with the purpose of physically injuring the player to be brutal, was it selective of only a few players to humiliate them, did the coach use this to manipulate the actions of the other non-drilled catchers, or to force them to quit?  Is the coach just mentally ill?  I think 'intention' plays into the interpretation of the action when it comes to coaches.
PhoenixPhan

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Posts: 65
Reply with quote  #118 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWCDD
Part of catcher training that I have seen is to basically have a pitching machine do the same thing and the catchers are instructed to NOT catch the ball but to let it hit them/block it with their body.  My assumption was that it trains them not to flinch or turn away...so that when they do start actually catching their brain is trained to be steady/ready.  I never considered this abuse.  When I am talking about abuse the difference is in the attitude of the coach.  Did they do it with the purpose of physically injuring the player to be brutal, was it selective of only a few players to humiliate them, did the coach use this to manipulate the actions of the other non-drilled catchers, or to force them to quit?  Is the coach just mentally ill?  I think 'intention' plays into the interpretation of the action when it comes to coaches.


I think the fact that one of the players that was made to do the drill was not ever nor would ever be a catcher speaks volumes as to the "intent" of the coach.  The catcher that was forced to do the drill played travel ball at a very high level and was the starting catcher for her team that won the State Championship, Region Championship, and National Championship at the 18U level.  I don't think the drill was of any benefit to enhance her playing skills, but that is just my opinion.

If many starters are going to the AD to complain about how they are being treated and are threatening to boycott practice a possible sign of abuse?  What about when 2 assistant coaches quit halfway into the season due to how players are being treated?  Is making the entire team run many, many sprints near the end of the season for "violation of team rules" when not a single team rule was violated a possible sign of abuse or was it justified for the players complaining to the AD for how they were being treated?  If 6 players (3 starters) left the program at the end of the season, is that a sign of possible problems?
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #119 
I'm learning that the girls with the natural ability and years of skills training are often the target of an insecure coach who feels that they need to take out the biggest potential player to make every other team member internally cower in fear that they could be next.  If it results in a cohesive team that works together and a coach who then actually trains them to greater skills level after she 'gets their attention' then I guess an argument could be made for it being a psychological tool.  Right or wrong.  (But we all know results allow for all sorts of atrocities).    In our situation, the team became fractured, the stats did not improve, and a lot of parents and players just held their breath hoping the coach would get fired.....by letting one or two families take the lead on fighting the abuse.  The coaches, the schools and the NCAA count on the argument that 'it's only a few individuals and not representative of the team' in order to quash having to respond.  Even though most of the team actually has no respect for the coach.  I'm sure this angers real coaches even more than the players and families because it brings down the whole reputation of the sport and the coaching.  Truly pathetic.
WWCDD

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Reply with quote  #120 
Well, now I know why Marty Greenberg didn't get back to me yet when I contacted his office.  He's been busy....
http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/20466809/former-auburn-tigers-softball-player-alleges-abuse-sexual-harassment-14-page-complaint

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