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POV

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Senators look for smoking gun in BP-Lockerbie link - Yahoo! News



....I can't wait for the Joe Barton apology on this one.



woody

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This one goes a lot deeper than BP, and world politics and business is often not pretty. But what business is it of the US Senate what dealings BP and the British Government have had with Libya? Should the Senate vote on a non binding declaration condemning the both of them? After declaring moral outrage getting some photo ops and wasting what little time the Dems have left in control, they might get back to the business of running our country.
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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
......they might get back to the business of running our country. 


Why would they start now?
POV

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
But what business is it of the US Senate what dealings BP and the British Government have had with Libya?


 I guess that the majority of those killed on the Lockerbie flight were Americans.  That BP's contract with Libya was worth so much more than those American lives, and that they are drilling off the coast of the US.  That BP's pursuit of profits vs. careful monitoring/oversight has cost addition lives, livelihoods, economic hardship for decades and the worse environmental disaster ever for this country.  That's just a few....

Personally I'm outraged.
GrizzlyFan

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POV you mean you have selective outrage. It was liberals like you and your ilk that forced us to deep water for drilling in the first place. Then you express outrage when there is an accident. If we were allowed to drill on dry land like Alaska (which by the way America purchased for the resources) then we would not be having this discussion. But you value the life of a caribou more than human life, so send the drilling to the deep water where it is less safe.


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LMUfan

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Reply with quote  #6 
I'm a little green on the deep water drilling subject.  But, when I was growing up the U.S. claimed water only up to 3 miles off shore.  Has that changed?  Once an oil company is beyond the distance the U.S. claims as ownership, no matter how far it is, does the oil company need to answer to the U.S. at all?
POV

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Reply with quote  #7 
So a terrorist who killed 180 Americans was released because of "health reason" back to his native Libya in return for a lucarative oil contract and you're OK with that? That oil company is now responsible for more lives lost in addition to killing off one of the environmental treasures of this country as well as life as many Americans know it and you're OK with that?  Bush/Cheney instigated an illegal war instigated by  manufacturilng "intelligence" in which thousands of innocents died for Big Oil and you're OK with that? I guess one can rationalize anything, even supporting terrorists and their supporters who killed your fellow Americans.  

Where's that Tea Party rage?  


woody

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by POV
So a terrorist who killed 180 Americans was released because of "health reason" back to his native Libya in return for a lucarative oil contract and you're OK with that? That oil company is now responsible for more lives lost in addition to killing off one of the environmental treasures of this country as well as life as many Americans know it and you're OK with that?  Bush/Cheney instigated an illegal war instigated by  manufacturilng "intelligence" in which thousands of innocents died for Big Oil and you're OK with that? I guess one can rationalize anything, even supporting terrorists and their supporters who killed your fellow Americans.  

Where's that Tea Party rage?  

I for one was happy when Reagan took a shot a Khadafi, but saddened when his child was killed instead of the intended target.I was encouraged when soon after the second Iraq invasion that toppled Saddam, that Syria went tits up and disavowed all things that were nuclear and biological weapons proliferation. Why did they do that? Because, the Saudis could give a flip about Syria as long as a big stick, the US was on the move. I was disappointed that Iran scooped up all the MIG fighters that Saddam flew over to them for safe keeping no matter their state of disrepair. All of our moves in the Middle East have been over oil reserves and the denial of those reserves to Russia and China. What part of our foreign policy have you not been aware of since shortly after WWI?? Get with the world economy POV, or get a bicycle, a solar panel and a 12 volt fan and live in a mud hut. This is a global struggle over resources, and it is not pretty, so if you want to feign righteous indignation, go to a liberal blog site to your liking, this is a discussion of reality with real economic consequences both national and international.Wait until the war over water rights in Israel and the West bank gets started, you just thought oil was a tripping point.  I can only guess which side you and the current administration will side with.  

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woody

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
I'm a little green on the deep water drilling subject.  But, when I was growing up the U.S. claimed water only up to 3 miles off shore.  Has that changed?  Once an oil company is beyond the distance the U.S. claims as ownership, no matter how far it is, does the oil company need to answer to the U.S. at all?
U.S. territorial sea limits extend to 200 miles offshore. State water rights extend from 3 nautical miles to nine miles depending on the state and territorial sea agreements with the Federal Government, used to be 12 nautical miles in the old days.. Drilling rights for offshore leases are by blocks in the GOM. sold to the highest bidder. Rigs are assembled, drilling and production ensue, then after depletion, the rigs are removed, drill sights  capped and covered to a minimum navigational hazard depth.I like to find old oil drilling sights that have been discontinued and cemented over. They leave a hard spot on the GOM mud floor that attract fish and leave a hard spot mark on a quality depth finder with some good fish marks that wind up on my BBQ grill. YUMM

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #10 

Here we go again..... "Bush lied people died"
POV, is that the best you can do? Do we have to re-hash this again and go through the entire list of democrats who pounded their fist on the floor of congress claiming something HAD to be done about Saddam? These democrats who had access to the same intel reports that Bush did. Do we have to remind you how many times Billy Boy Clinton, Algore, Hillary, Kerry, etc... said that Saddam had WMD's before Bush was even in office?
By the way, if Bush went to war for oil, then why didn't we take control of their oil after we defeated Iran?

By the way, Chuckie Shumer wants to investigate this assumed BP/Lybia connection even though there is no evidence of a quid pro quo yet he and his democrat buds in the justice dept refuse to investigate voter intimidation when the proof is on video?
You libs and your selective outrage, it is quite entertaining

Oh and by the way, you can blame the environmentalist groups for this mess in the gulf. They forced us to go to deep water to drill when we could be in shallow water or Alaska. Thanks libs!!


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POV

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Reply with quote  #11 

woody, I'm aware of the political maneuvering in the interest of oil over the years.  Doesn't mean I agree with it.  If the loss of life is justifiable in exchange for oil, what will be the next justifiable commodity or concept?  Is it for the common good or gigantic power/profits for just few?  If for the common good then why the lies and closed door tactics? The contract between BP & Libra was for 20 billion.....is this the price of 270 lives?  I guess this means that we are negotiating with terrorists, it just a matter of price. 

Reality has become what we have allowed it to become.  Huge profits/political gain are being enjoyed by a few and the rest of us are just grunts who led to believe that this is the status quo so you better get used to it.....oh yeah sorry about your dad who was on that flight, or your son who got his head shot off in Iraq, but you understand. 

I think this signature line is especially poignant for this thread:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"  Edmund Burke

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #12 
I agree with your signature line & had it for a while.....It is exactly why I have become involved politically these last couple years.
If I was few years younger I'd run for office myself. Maybe if I would have ran 40years ago, I could have been a career politician

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #13 

POV with your deep concern for the value of a human life, is it safe to assume that you are against legalized abortion? Or are you selective about which lives you want protected?


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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
woody

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Reply with quote  #14 
POV, I am no fan of BP and their safety record, but lots of grunts and white collar folks work for them and make a lot of money. Corporations like BP and Exxon make  lots of money for shareholders, not a few privileged people like you said.As far as justification of war for oil, if tomorrow we had a  truly economically viable alternative for powering our industries and our economy, I would be the first to rejoice.Fighting a war to rid Afghanistan of some bad people is justifiable. Fighting a war in Iraq to rid it of Saddam was ok in my book, even if he was our proxy. Fighting over oil supplies and resources is nothing new and as evil as it may be, it is us against other countries fighting for the oil that powers our nation. Perhaps if we allowed more drilling on our own soil we would need less from the Middle East. Natural gas is a strong point in our country, but 18 wheelers don't burn natural gas to stock Wal Mart with bicycles, and 12 volt fans made in China As far as lies and closed door tactics, the current administration makes use of both very effectively. . 
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


Dewey

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyFan

POV with your deep concern for the value of a human life, is it safe to assume that you are against legalized abortion? Or are you selective about which lives you want protected?

To suggest one can't care about the lives of our fellow human beings, without agreeing abortion should be made illegal, is both unfair and inaccurate. 

woody

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Reply with quote  #16 
POV,  I think a lot of people care about the fellow human beings that are aborted. It is a hard argument to justify abortion, its an ugly thing that no one is comfortable with on either side of the debate.Killing babies in the womb or out of it is a cold thing to do.
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Dewey

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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
POV,  I think a lot of people care about the fellow human beings that are aborted. 


woody - I don't believe anyone has suggested otherwise, (and it was me who responded to Grizzly).  POV didn't bring abortion, or the caribou, into this discussion.  Caribou?  Talk about grasping at thin air.  Regardless of what some believe, one would be hard pressed to find many Liberals who are so called "pro" abortion.  Now as for making abortion illegal, that's another thread all-together.
woody

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Reply with quote  #18 
Sorry, I saw POV in the quote. I never see a lot of conservatives supporting abortion. Abortion is a Liberal and Democratic campaign issue. Why would you say that Liberals are not pro abortion? That is not a correct statement Dewey.
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyFan

POV with your deep concern for the value of a human life, is it safe to assume that you are against legalized abortion? Or are you selective about which lives you want protected?

To suggest one can't care about the lives of our fellow human beings, without agreeing abortion should be made illegal, is both unfair and inaccurate. 

You're right Dewey, killing an unborn baby shows tremendous affection for human life.
By the way, if they had access to modern sonograms and could have actually seen the baby in the womb like we can today, do you think Roe Vs Wade would have turned out the way that it did? Doubtful.

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
POV

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Reply with quote  #20 
woody, I'm unclear about where you stand on the release of the Lockerbie terrorist in return for an oil contract.  Are you OK with it?

Hypothetical:  Let's say that Mobil/Exxon is offered 20 billion for a contract from Nigeria in exchange for the release of the kid who took it in the shorts (underpants bomber).  His actions didn't kill anyone.  Should he be released?

oldscout, thanks for that quote.  I knew it was your signature line for awhile.  That's were I got it. Should have mentioned your name. 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #21 
woody - I'm against adultery too but I would never vote for a law against it.  Does that make me pro-adultery in your eyes?  I will never vote to make all abortions illegal but, like many other Liberals who feel the same as me, I'm far from pro-abortion.  And Grizzly, that's as far as I wish to go with the abortion debate.  As woody says, it's a very complex and personal issue.  Besides, POV is trying to address an entirely different subject.  Carry on.

Edit:  Woody, pro-choice should not be construed as pro-abortion.
woody

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Reply with quote  #22 
POV, I think allowing the release of an animal that butchered innocent civilians is an affront to the families of the dead and the civilized nations of the world. The Brits did BP's bidding so they could compete with other oil companies for drilling rights. Had the Lockerbie bomber been extradited to the US, we would likely have had to return him to Libya long ago, as a corpse. The under pants bomber should be used as a source of information. He should spend the rest of his life in prison. Every individual that had any part in his attempt to butcher civilians should be hunted down and killed. Thats where I stand.
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Ignorance is forgivable, and correctable with proper study. Stupidity is a way of life.


oldscout

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POV- I looked back through all the comments & don't really see where anyone was ok with the release of the lockerbie terrorist & possible connection to BP/GB.
Dewey- While I too don't want to get into a long debate on abortion, I will say again that Obama's radical position on abortion turned me off to him from day 1.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #24 
Dewey, the reason that I brought abortion into the debate is to expose the selective outrage of some people. If human life is to be valued, which I believe it is, then lets value ALL human life.
I can never understand the thought process of some democrats who want to save the life of a murderer on death row yet they have no problem with killing an innocent baby in the womb.
POV is so worked up over this bomber getting set free because it devalues the lives of his victims, so I assumed that POV must value the life of a baby as well. Maybe I was wrong though. 

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #25 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout
POV- I looked back through all the comments & don't really see where anyone was ok with the release of the lockerbie terrorist & possible connection to BP/GB.
Dewey- While I too don't want to get into a long debate on abortion, I will say again that Obama's radical position on abortion turned me off to him from day 1.


Again oldscout, I don't want to debate the abortion issue but I am interested in how Obama differs from yours truly or even former President Clinton.  I don't think I'm radical.  Rad?  Yes, but not radical.   And Grizzly..., not today.


Edit:  It's 1:38 am on the West Coast and the chat room says there's 29 people inside.  Don't think so.

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout
POV- I looked back through all the comments & don't really see where anyone was ok with the release of the lockerbie terrorist & possible connection to BP/GB.
Dewey- While I too don't want to get into a long debate on abortion, I will say again that Obama's radical position on abortion turned me off to him from day 1.


Again oldscout, I don't want to debate the abortion issue but I am interested in how Obama differs from yours truly or even former President Clinton.  I don't think I'm radical.  Rad?  Yes, but not radical.   And Grizzly..., not today.


Edit:  It's 1:38 am on the West Coast and the chat room says there's 29 people inside.  Don't think so.

Dewey-I will remember a comment by Obama early on when he was running for the nomination & he said if one of his daughters made a mistake & became pregnant as a teen, he would permit her to have an abortion. This virtually turned my stomach.

If you also look at his appointees to MANY areas they are all pro abortion.


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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #27 
Old Scout - In my mind there are many reasons why a woman would need the choice to have an abortion or not. Not to have that choice would "turn my stomach". However, I am very much against late term abortion. Don't bother trying to persuade me differently because I have thought this out through many years and have a different base for my decision than those who would call "baby killer" at any abortion. Interestingly, this is one of the few debatable issues where my mind is embedded in cement. We will have to agree to disagree based on our base premises.

PS - It's not "pro abortion" (what a slanted semantic use of words); it's "pro choice".

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #28 
As for the relationship between human life and the acquisition of material things (here reduced to oil acquisition) , history demonstrates that those in power have almost universally sacrificed human life to their own acquisition of additional power and additional wealth. So it goes. "So onward into the Valley of Death rode the 600, 'gallant' 600".
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Old Scout - In my mind there are many reasons why a woman would need the choice to have an abortion or not. Not to have that choice would "turn my stomach". However, I am very much against late term abortion. Don't bother trying to persuade me differently because I have thought this out through many years and have a different base for my decision than those who would call "baby killer" at any abortion. Interestingly, this is one of the few debatable issues where my mind is embedded in cement. We will have to agree to disagree based on our base premises.

PS - It's not "pro abortion" (what a slanted semantic use of words); it's "pro choice".
Our Gov in Mizzo[he is pro-choice] did the right thing  by not vetoing SB 793 that requires woman be OFFERED the oportunity to view an ultrasound & receive info on the development of her baby[ including its ability to feel pain],plus altenatives to abortion & the fathers responsibility under state laws at least 24 hrs. prior to an abortion. I applaud him for his bi-partisanship, he is taking heat from the left in the state.He is a Democrat...not a bad Gov.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #30 
Oldscout Obama said that if his daughter made a "mistake" and got pregnant, he would not want her "punished" with a child.
Very telling statement if you ask me.

Also even worse, when a baby is born alive in spite of an attempted abortion, Obama voted to not allow a medical doctor access to that baby to give it a chance to live, but instead the baby is left to die. The reason Obama gave for this decision is that "It would put an undue burden on the mother whos original decision was to have the abortion."

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If Obamacare is such a good thing, why did he have to lie about it to get it passed?
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