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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #61 
Daddy O - You are really into this "Marxist" thing.  Have you read "Das Capital" or "The Manifesto" or the results of the 1903 Marxist meeting in Belgium that led to the leaders and ideas of the Russian revolution?  All are interesting and some contain ideas that are relevant today.  Last time I looked, the Cold War was over.      
 

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #62 

POV - Thank you very much for your post.  I want you to know I appreciate you sharing your concern over some of these over the top and unnecessary remarks.  I'm sure you learned long ago that I won't allow some crude banter by a misguided young man to shake my approach in this forum, particularly as it relates to voicing my opinions on what I find important.  In addition, I hope I can convince you that the likes of a PGP in no way represents the vast majority of Conservatives I engage with, both in here and in my personal life.  That said, if PGP gets any "atta boys", I might just totally flip out.  

PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
JD - I added to my vocabulary because I didn't know what teabagging was, and I pride myself on being a "street urchin" with "street smarts".  Maybe it's a generation thing?  I thought it was an English thing that happened at 3 in the afternoon.    
PS - By the way, my take on the debt debacle is that the Republicans care more about defeating Obama than they do about the needs of our nation. If I continue to believe that, I will vote against them in the next election, not for any candidate.   

And Obama cannot stop the same bull$hit about raising taxes on those that pay enough already. Class Warfare - one of the most overused play in the Liberal Handbook.


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woody

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Reply with quote  #64 
JG, the fact that the Dems were asking for tax increases now, and were said to offer 2-3 trillion in unspecified spending cuts 6 years or more from now makes me think they are less than serious about balancing the budget. The Dems refused a balanced budget amendment. They refuse to touch SS or Medicare. They refuse to reduce entitlement spending. I don't blame the the Republicans for being scared of the Tea Party, and so should the Dems. They are the ones that took a lot of Independent voters and along with conservative Republicans voted in the Freshman Congressmen who are now doing what they were elected to do, cut federal spending and balance the budget. If Congress doesn't do it now, these same voters will not only primary the Republican Liberals, they will vote the Freshman out as well. The Republicans are offering up spending cuts, the Dems are wanting tax increases and no spending cuts. Pretty clear picture as to what each party represents from my point of view.
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

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DaddyO

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Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Daddy O - You are really into this "Marxist" thing. Have you read "Das Capital" or "The Manifesto" or the results of the 1903 Marxist meeting in Belgium that led to the leaders and ideas of the Russian revolution? All are interesting and some contain ideas that are relevant today. Last time I looked, the Cold War was over.


Frank, if you're saying there are some good Marxist ideas, I'd be interested in what you think they are.

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Scratch a reactionary leftist, find the fascist writhing underneath.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #66 
Why are the Republicans the only one's that have put plans on the table?

The Democrats[ the party of no ] has turned down every thing that the Republicans have put forth.

Please don't tell me," What the president is willing to do or rumored to do ". I want to know their plan.
I saw Toomey on a show today & he said that the house passed a bill which included a balanced budget. While,he said that it might not have been what the Democrats wanted,yet it could have been debated by the senate & changed or amended-Reid would not even let it reach the floor...WHY?

IMO,the Democrats & president are not submitting their plan for the same reason they have not passed a formal budget last year or this year,they don't want the voters to see the cuts that they really want to make & why?
Because most or all are 4-6 years from now. That is nothing more than wishful thinking....PROPOSED CUTS have no impact on FUTURE houses,they don't have to follow them. Thus they really are not cuts.

You all remember the congressman that caught flack when he said," YOU LIE ".....the guy might have been right on.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #67 
old scout - Would you vote for this guy?  He famously scolded Congress, saying that they were being hard headed for playing politics with the debt limit and bringing the nation "to the edge of default before facing responsibility".  He also presided over 18 increases in the debt ceiling.  He signed the largest peacetime tax increase in US history.  He raised taxes in every year except his first in office.  As a governor, he signed the biggest tax increase in state history.  He and the House speaker forged landmark tax and Social Security deals and he was willing to raise the federal debt ceiling so the  government could keep borrowing to pay its bills. 
His administration  left the US federal government in deep debt.  

No, it's not Obama.  It's Ronald Reagan.   

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
old scout - Would you vote for this guy?  He famously scolded Congress, saying that they were being hard headed for playing politics with the debt limit and bringing the nation "to the edge of default before facing responsibility".  He also presided over 18 increases in the debt ceiling.  He signed the largest peacetime tax increase in US history.  He raised taxes in every year except his first in office.  As a governor, he signed the biggest tax increase in state history.  He and the House speaker forged landmark tax and Social Security deals and he was willing to raise the federal debt ceiling so the  government could keep borrowing to pay its bills. 
His administration  left the US federal government in deep debt.  

No, it's not Obama.   

Bush is not in Office.  He's not running for re-election.  The Community Agitator is in Office.  Where's the summer of Recovery (2009) according to him and Vice President Stupid?  It came and went.  No recovery.  No jobs.  The Stimulus was one big pay-off to all those Union scumbags who voted him in with taxpayer money.  Where's your outrage that the Dems took $500 million from Medicare to put into ObamaCare?  I don't hear you say a f*cking word about that.  You and Dewey and all the other Libs are still way behind in the times in what politician to demonize.  The American People who voted in an empty suit to become President were sold a bill of goods.  He has no practical experience other than shaking down people for money like his predecessors the Poverty Pimps Reverends Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton.


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Keep 'em moving Colonel, a man that eloquent has to be saved.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #69 
Daddy O - In 1928 a man named Norman Thomas ran on the Socialist ticket for President of the USA.  Of  course he received rough treatment for the planks of his "Marxist" party platform (remember that  the Russian revolution was in 1915 and fresh in the minds of many who saw socialism as an attack on laissez faire capitalism, which most of it is).   Many Russians were deported in the late 19 teens under the Alien  and Sedition Acts - the boat was known as "The Russian Ark".  Among those planks heralded by Norman Thomas were social security, welfare, aid to dependent children, Medicare,  unemployment compensation, and such concepts as work camps for the unemployed.  In one form or another, our nation's federal government has supported every one of those concepts in one form or another for about 75 years to date.  National Health Care is just  another  one of those concepts, very upsetting to a segment of society that wants to place practically everything  onto a free market, near laissez faire capitalism as practiced in the 19th century in the USA.  I see a compromise that is beneficial to all citizens (if handled efficiently and effectively).  

What I see as "good", even necessary in the wealthiest nation in the world, are those aspects of socialism that aid "the least of these" citizens with a "hand up".  Have the concepts been corrupted by the humans who have handled them?  - absolutely!!  In my mind does that make the concepts bad - No, just part  of "The Washington Way" !!  I am an avid capitalist who believes that there are some areas where capitalism does not work appropriately for all our  nation's citizens.  For example I applaud a graduated income tax.  I think the great Depression had a large hand in teaching us that a safety net is needed for our working class.  There, aspects of socialism (actually redistribution of some of the nation's wealth)  make more sense to me if we are to be regarded as an humanitarian nation.  If  our only value is "profit" then we do not, as a nation, fit an humanitarian mold.  

In the 1930s, during the Great  Depression, many young intellectuals felt that capitalism had failed, and they investigated alternatives including Marxism.  They formed study clubs, so when, in 1952 Senator Eugene McCarthy asked his famous Cold War question of some very important people in our society, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party", under oath many had to take the fifth amendment because in the  1930s, as college youngsters,  they had, even though they had not deserted the USA in any way.  Remember, this was the anti Russia Cold War  after WW2, and anything that even slightly resembled Marxism or Socialism was regarded as "Baaaaad" (as the sheep in "Animal Farm" bleated) automatically.  All of Socialism is not "baaad", nor is all of capitalism "baaad". As a matter of fact, I think they make an excellent blend in proper dosages when handled properly to the advantage of all the citizens (and yes, classes) of the United States.  At least that's my take on the subject.  The perspective was not made lightly.    


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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #70 
PGP - I was writing about Ronald Reagan, not Bush.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #71 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
PGP - I was writing about Ronald Reagan, not Bush.  

Don't compare Obama to Reagan.  Obama lacks a dick and a ball sack because he's so indecisive.  We all know The First Klingon makes all the decisions at home - she's got the bigger balls.  He's Jimmy Carter on steroids.  Jimmy is sitting in Georgia someplace telling his wife, "I'm not going to be the worst President ever.  This guy makes me look good."


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Dewey

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Reply with quote  #72 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

Why are the Republicans the only one's that have put plans on the table?

Please don't tell me," What the president is willing to do or rumored to do ". I want to know their plan.

IMO,the Democrats & president are not submitting their plan...


oldscout - I'll try again.  First, let me remind you the Simpson-Bowles proposal would likely have been unanimously defeated by the Senate if it had been put to a vote.  That doesn't make it any less a plan, just an unpopular one.  Similarly, the Obama budget plan went down to defeat 97-0 because both sides felt it was outdated and needed to go further.  It too was a plan that was presented to the Congress and the negotiations have been ongoing ever since to change it into a longer term deficit cutting budget.  In fact, on Friday the Speaker saw that status of the Democrat's current plan and walked out.  Sooner or later, you'll see the final plan in a form necessary to pass in Congress.  These folks are reshaping and finalizing a plan you say is nonexistent.  I suspect your real concern is that the negotiations are not going on in a public enough manner to satisfy your wishes.   
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #73 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

Why are the Republicans the only one's that have put plans on the table?

Please don't tell me," What the president is willing to do or rumored to do ". I want to know their plan.

IMO,the Democrats & president are not submitting their plan...


oldscout - I'll try again.  First, let me remind you the Simpson-Bowles proposal would likely have been unanimously defeated by the Senate if it had been put to a vote.  That doesn't make it any less a plan, just an unpopular one.  Similarly, the Obama budget plan went down to defeat 97-0 because both sides felt it was outdated and needed to go further.  It too was a plan that was presented to the Congress and the negotiations have been ongoing ever since to change it into a longer term deficit cutting budget.  In fact, on Friday the Speaker saw that status of the Democrat's current plan and walked out.  Sooner or later, you'll see the final plan in a form necessary to pass in Congress.  These folks are reshaping and finalizing a plan you say is nonexistent.  I suspect your real concern is that the negotiations are not going on in a public enough manner to satisfy your wishes.   

That's Bull$hit.  I heard Boehner this morning say that "the President keeps moving back the goal post." 



If you don't sit and watch it you're a bigger close minded fool than I thought you were.  Truth hurts doesn't it?

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Keep 'em moving Colonel, a man that eloquent has to be saved.
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #74 
Harry Reid is a walking corpse.  The people of Nevada are really stupid for voting that old bastard back in instead of sending him to a nursing home so he crap in his diaper 3 times a day.





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Keep 'em moving Colonel, a man that eloquent has to be saved.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #75 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldscout

Why are the Republicans the only one's that have put plans on the table?

Please don't tell me," What the president is willing to do or rumored to do ". I want to know their plan.

IMO,the Democrats & president are not submitting their plan...


oldscout - I'll try again.  First, let me remind you the Simpson-Bowles proposal would likely have been unanimously defeated by the Senate if it had been put to a vote.  That doesn't make it any less a plan, just an unpopular one.  Similarly, the Obama budget plan went down to defeat 97-0 because both sides felt it was outdated and needed to go further.  It too was a plan that was presented to the Congress and the negotiations have been ongoing ever since to change it into a longer term deficit cutting budget.  In fact, on Friday the Speaker saw that status of the Democrat's current plan and walked out.  Sooner or later, you'll see the final plan in a form necessary to pass in Congress.  These folks are reshaping and finalizing a plan you say is nonexistent.  I suspect your real concern is that the negotiations are not going on in a public enough manner to satisfy your wishes.   
THe Simpson-Bowles plan was one from both sides,not the Democrats.O'bama himself rejected the plan that he asked them to come up with.You would have thought he would have at least used some of it.

His budget was so fuzzy,the CBO could not even score it,nothing but increased spending.

I watched little Timmy this morning on Chris Wallace & he said that they need to go back to the plan with $800,000 billion in new revenues,plus the cuts that Boehner/Obama had agreed on BEFORE Obama added another $400,000 billion after they had reached an agreement.THAT MY FRIEND is the reason Boehner walked....did you somehow miss that.
After this morning,when Boehner was asked about what Timmy said,he stated his offer with the $800B is STILL on the table.

This is kind of me agreeing with you to sell you my pickup for $5000 & shaking hands on it,but when you begin to write the check,I tell you it is going to cost you $7500...of course you don't like it and leave.In this example,I would be Obama & you Boehner.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #76 

oldscout - The White House disagrees with Boehner's description of that meeting and there are usually two sides to every story.  That aside, I haven't enough knowledge or desire to debate back and forth with you what the merits of this particular disagreement are or what the eventual overall agreement will or should contain.  I simply wanted you to know both sides have their own plans for how to move forward, the plans are being hashed out daily, and there will eventually be a final plan signed into law.  The plan...the plan, just needs to be inked.     

oldscout

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

oldscout - The White House disagrees with Boehner's description of that meeting and there are usually two sides to every story.  That aside, I haven't enough knowledge or desire to debate back and forth with you what the merits of this particular disagreement are or what the eventual overall agreement will or should contain.  I simply wanted you to know both sides have their own plans for how to move forward, the plans are being hashed out daily, and there will eventually be a final plan signed into law.  The plan...the plan, just needs to be inked.     

My point was to you that Timmy said on Chris Wallace,we need to go back to the $800,000 deal they had & Boehner said shortly after that that plan was still on table. Thus if Obama didn't raise the anti after they had an agreement,why no inked plan?

What is crazy is that a vast majority of those in the House & Senate voted to spend the money that they are not willing to now pay for-to me that is immoral.
Where the Dems have a problem is that for a 2nd straight year the Senate failed to approve a budget....so the top Democrats involved in debt negotiations only represent their OWN views,not one based on their budget.
I'd say the senate is almost dysfunctional at this point & largely because they don't have a budget.
I do think that a big part of the whole problem is that the extremists on both sides have taken control of the agenda & stifled it,slowing everything down.

I'm very concerned as an American that our Government is currently so polarized that it is close to being ungovernable & that at least to me is very,very sad.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #78 
oldscout - If the Senate passed a budget that included an elimination of some of the Bush tax cuts, what would happen to this bill in the House?  Why spend many days drafting, debating, and passing a budget that has no chance of success?  Spending time doing this is a total waste and is simply a form of posturing.  Better to just talk it over with your opponents and work out something that will pass.  Don't waste time with a budget that has no chance.  Find out what will work.

Lastly, I agree with you that Government has been stopped in its tracks and is nearly ungovernable.  Republicans have learned that using the only branch of Government you control, one can bring this Country to her knees.  This hostage holding of a debt ceiling extension is a new method never before used.  Unfortunately, I believe we will need to suffer as a nation this time around to expose this new-found and unfair political maneuver.  It should take but one time for the American people to learn how reprehensible this move is and they will correct in the future via the ballot box.  Let's hope this one time damage is not too severe.  They say they're not going to let it happen and I can only hope. 
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #79 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

POV - Thank you very much for your post.  I want you to know I appreciate you sharing your concern over some of these over the top and unnecessary remarks.  I'm sure you learned long ago that I won't allow some crude banter by a misguided young man to shake my approach in this forum, particularly as it relates to voicing my opinions on what I find important.  In addition, I hope I can convince you that the likes of a PGP in no way represents the vast majority of Conservatives I engage with, both in here and in my personal life.  That said, if PGP gets any "atta boys", I might just totally flip out.  

I just want to say...Atta boy PGP  Keep callin em like ya see em.


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When Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in an empty suit and promising hope and change.

Jack Dandy
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #80 
PGP - I was not comparing anyone's dick or sack to anyone else's.  I was simply listing a few little known facts about "the great Communicator".  Many of that administration's leanings administratively are the same as the current administration's though.  I was just asking Terry if he would vote for such a President, or whether he wouldn't only if his name were Obama.  Most Republicans revere Reagan.  Great speechifier.  Always seemed like a nice guy. Great smile.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #81 
Quote:
......I believe we will need to suffer as a nation this time around to expose this new-found and unfair political maneuver.


So, some politicians have found a new and unfair way to govern.......Who would have thought?     
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #82 
JD - You are right.  You just can't help yourself !!!          
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JackDandy

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Reply with quote  #83 

Joisey, it's a sickness and I know I need help, but I refuse to get it because life is too much fun this way!


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When Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in an empty suit and promising hope and change.

Jack Dandy
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #84 
JD -  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #85 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey
oldscout - If the Senate passed a budget that included an elimination of some of the Bush tax cuts, what would happen to this bill in the House?  Why spend many days drafting, debating, and passing a budget that has no chance of success?  Spending time doing this is a total waste and is simply a form of posturing.  Better to just talk it over with your opponents and work out something that will pass.  Don't waste time with a budget that has no chance.  Find out what will work.

Lastly, I agree with you that Government has been stopped in its tracks and is nearly ungovernable.  Republicans have learned that using the only branch of Government you control, one can bring this Country to her knees.  This hostage holding of a debt ceiling extension is a new method never before used.  Unfortunately, I believe we will need to suffer as a nation this time around to expose this new-found and unfair political maneuver.  It should take but one time for the American people to learn how reprehensible this move is and they will correct in the future via the ballot box.  Let's hope this one time damage is not too severe.  They say they're not going to let it happen and I can only hope. 
I see this opposite of you,I believe the president is holding it up.

Why would he up the anti after he had a compromise with Boehner?

Why would he not take a short term deal to avoid default?

I say he wants the default? So he can use bully pulpit to lay blame & get himself re-elected.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #86 
old scout - That blame game cuts both ways.  If what you say is true (I don't think it is, but put nothing past politicians), the President is playing a very shaky game.  I see a standoff as favoring the Republicans in Congress.  As politicians, I wouldn't trust either group to tell anything close to the truth.  R. Mitch McConnell's statement, "I won't do anything to help Obama get reelected" I think is as close to the truth as anything said by either side.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
swifty

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Reply with quote  #87 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
old scout - That blame game cuts both ways.  If what you say is true (I don't think it is, but put nothing past politicians), the President is playing a very shaky game.  I see a standoff as favoring the Republicans in Congress.  As politicians, I wouldn't trust either group to tell anything close to the truth.  R. Mitch McConnell's statement, "I won't do anything to help Obama get reelected" I think is as close to the truth as anything said by either side.  


Joisey

There you go again, taking quotes out of context to try to make a conservative look bad.

Well, I won't let you get away with it, and I will call you out loud and clear each and every time you attempt it.
oldscout

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Reply with quote  #88 
JG- Did you hear a plan from the president last night? Or did you just hear ," hey,it's the other guys fault"?
This man divides the country with each appearance on the tube.

Did he put the fear of God into you & your lovely wife, that you all might not get your checks in the mail? Disgusting

Be a leader,bring this country together....and a good start would be to follow the old rule," If you can't say ANYTHING good about someone,don't say anything."..OMG.

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Terry Schneider
" Fear not tomorrow, God is already there ".
masare

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Reply with quote  #89 
Old scout et al be honest...you would take anything he said in that speech as divisive and not good for the country! " we all hear what we want hear and disregard the rest". I have been reading some of these posts for weeks now and nothing any of you say is new. It's interesting that president Reagan's handling of economic struggles was brought up in president Obama's speech.
In truth, I don't know how either party can navigate in the toxic environment they have created (reading the misc. forum is a good sample of toxic).
I think Obama has the best chance of working something out and despite the whining by the Speaker of the House...he has impressed me somewhat lately and I think he is putting good effort!
Dewey you are the superman of political discussions!!!
PatGillickProtege

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Reply with quote  #90 

Quote:
Originally Posted by masare
Old scout et al be honest...you would take anything he said in that speech as divisive and not good for the country! " we all hear what we want hear and disregard the rest". I have been reading some of these posts for weeks now and nothing any of you say is new. It's interesting that president Reagan's handling of economic struggles was brought up in president Obama's speech.
In truth, I don't know how either party can navigate in the toxic environment they have created (reading the misc. forum is a good sample of toxic).
I think Obama has the best chance of working something out and despite the whining by the Speaker of the House...he has impressed me somewhat lately and I think he is putting good effort!
Dewey you are the superman of political discussions!!!

Masare - have you not been listening?  The President is no longer involved in putting a deal together - it's Boehner, McConnell & Reid.  President Obama picked up his toys and went home.  He's been the one whining, not Boehner. 


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Keep 'em moving Colonel, a man that eloquent has to be saved.
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