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TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #151 
Wonder if any of you fans watched "60 minutes" on Sunday.
the interview with a CEO of a company that has moved to Ireland because of less taxes. he was asked if he brought his benefits back to the US. Guess what his answer was. ?????
he stated that all those companies that are overseas have no plans to come back to the States,
so technically the high unemployment will remain.
sad...sad... for the new generation.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #152 

Things are gonna get worse.....Unemployment is much worse than the numbers show, now....Our jobs did go overseas.....Inflation is on it's way....No way to stop it.....It's too late!

TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #153 
bluedog, you are right about inflation.
an article in the "Orange County Register " indicated that grocery prices are continuously going up. this forces people to shop at "99 Cents and Walmarts stores."
as an example it stated that the price of home barbecue for 4 went from $55 a year ago to $61 now.
this will force fat people to go on a diet, which will be good for them.
woody

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Reply with quote  #154 
The cost of food is not factored into the inflation rate. 
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #155 

I prefer to shop at the dollar store.....The extra time it takes to dress better to go to Wal-Mart just isn't worth the effort.... 

woody

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Reply with quote  #156 
Agreed, if you have to put on more than your house coat and a pair of slip on tennis shoes with the backs flattened down, whats the point?
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Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #157 
If you're on the fence...

Ask yourself the following questions.  If you're a regular reader here you know I've presented many of these to other members on several occasions with little response.

1)  When this President took office, the stock market was somewhere around 7900 and has since risen to nearly 11,000.  Do you give his policies any credit for this whatsoever?

2)  When this President took over the GDP was in free fall.  He stopped the hemorrhaging and we have now seen seven quarters of positive GDP growth.  What policies did he enact to create this turnaround?  Does he deserve any credit whatsoever?

3)  As the last Administration left office, we were in the midst of 13 consecutive months of job loss in this Country.  President Obama eventually halted this drop and we're now experiencing 17 months of private sector job growth.  What did he do to stop this tragic loss of jobs and turn it around?  Was it all just a coincidence?

4)  If you ran a shelter feeding 1000 people but 1100 were outside waiting to be fed, you might be a bit disheartened.  If you managed to increase this to 1100 the next month only to see 1300 waiting to be fed, you may begin to question your efforts.  In my opinion, this is analogous to the unemployment situation.  Despite our improved efforts, it's imperative that we find a way to accommodate everyone needing a job.  When it comes to unemployment, this President is working hard to do just that and I'll be the first to admit we haven't yet succeeded.  You can decide if we should fault his efforts or if the times are as difficult as they appear.

5)  The last Administration had us mired in Iraq for years and this President has come a long way to ending our involvement in this war.  Does this carry any weight with you at all?

6)  President Bush spent significant time and great efforts to eliminate Bin Laden, to no avail, and President Obama stepped in and completed the mission.  In your thinking, does he deserve any credit for this accomplishment?

7)  The previous Administration suffered a terrible tragedy on 9/11 and was advised to sacrifice lives to protect the national security of our Country.  President Obama inherited an economic tragedy and was advised to sacrifice dollars to protect and save our economic security.  If you listen to the news, you'd think the expenditure of dollars was the greatest and most misguided sacrifice ever undertaken by this Country.  I'll be the first to admit I'm totally disgusted by the financial burdens our actions of the past decade or so has put upon our children and grandchildren but, and this is no small but, I grieve much much more for the children and grandchildren that will never be.  As always, it's up to you to weigh the decisions of the leaders, and the Parties, that run our Country.


sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #158 

Dewey - at it again with its all Bush's fault!  And Who in our society couldnt make the GDP increase if they could print trillions of dollars?


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Susan
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #159 
Dewey -

1)  The Dow increased steadily from '01 to '08 when it hit ~14,000.  Any credit for Bush's policies from you?

2)  I'm sure you are aware that federal spending is a part of GDP.  You should also know that it's currently at ~25% of GDP.  That's the highest percentage since WWII.  You may want to drop GDP as one of this administration's successes.

3 & 4)  The fact is that in the last 10 yrs there has been little to no job creation in this country.  The numbers don't lie.  The increase in population accounts for higher unemployment, no doubt.  Times are indeed as difficult as they appear.

5)  As far as I can tell, we're still mired in Iraq and Afghanistan.

6)  I would not have given Bush nor will I give Obama any credit for the killing of Bin Laden.  Others may disagree, fine.

7)  Obama knew what he was inheriting and still assured us that things would improve.  It's becoming increasingly obvious to some that he and his administration are not up to the task.  How many voters it becomes obvious to will decide if he is "easily" re-elected as you boldly proclaimed in another thread.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #160 


bhblue - I never found a need to search out a source on the internet where I could bash or credit Bush while he was in office.  In any event, lower capital gain taxes, lower tax rates, and no doubt an industry free of oversight will be profitable and lead to a rise in the stock market.  Yes, Bush and his policies deserve some credit for this rise.

Spending includes wars, stimulus, increased safety net expenditures, etc.  There has been no talk by me about percentage of spending per GDP.  Based on lower government receipts and a need to care for citizens during this economic disaster, not sure how relevant this ratio can be right now

You are correct that jobs added in the last decade have been minimal and you're right that we are still in Iraq and Afghanistan.  My point was to show the improvements Obama has achieved as opposed to allowing others to continually suggest there have been none.  Tell me why 2010 reached a record total level in GDP.  Even you have refused to chime in over why GDP was much improved in 2010 and has fallen on lean times here in 2011.  I offered up my explanations and I'd like to hear yours.

I think Obama has learned not to predict with such specificity.  There's no way one can tell for sure how the economy is going to react and putting an exact number on his unemployment predictions, in order to convince the Legislature to vote for his stimulus, has obviously come back to haunt him.  Kind of like predicting gasoline under $2.00.

As for my predictions, if I'm wrong I'll catch a bit of heat too.

Edit:  Do you give Bush credit for the removal of Saddam Hussein?  If yes, curious as to how you contrast the two.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #161 
Quote:
Tell me why 2010 reached a record total level in GDP.


I know of three people who answered this...And, so do you!

Here's a visual for you...Makes it harder for you to say you didn't get an answer!



JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #162 
Dewey - Who benefitted financially from the steady  rise in the Dow during Bush's administration?  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #163 

Mr. Bolton-- I know your question was directed at Dewey, and presumably to get a desired response. That said, I'll offer MHO. Every American benefitted from the rise in the stock market. A rise in the stock market reflects a general healthy state for a lot of businesses which indicates a healthy economy. Generally healthy businesses retain and hire employees! They produce goods and services that are needed and desired.


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Jerry Wallace "For The Love Of The Game"
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #164 
Dewey - I believe the improved GDP in '10 as well as the it's faltering in '11 can both be attributed to Obama's stimulus.  While it did allow for some short-term expansion, it did nothing to promote long-term growth.  Many economists predicted this.  A pretty sharp decline in personal expenditures in the first 2 quarters of '11 shows that the public is in a worse position than at the beginning of 2010.  Plus, government spending actually declined some.  I believe the negative effects of his stimulus will continue.  I just hope his soon-to-be revealed plan for jobs improvement is not a new stimulus but I'm afraid that's what he's planning.

I don't give Bush any more credit for Saddam Hussein's removal than I do Obama for OBL's killing.  Which is practically zero.
slideby7

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Posts: 818
Reply with quote  #165 
Mr. Dewey, hopefully now you will stop begging for a response

1)  No

2)  No

3)  Yes

4)  We pay off for achievement, not effort

5)  It was the surge that Obama was against

6)  No, it was dumb blind luck that the activities of the intelligence community with    Bush's policies

7)  Apples and oranges, ludicrous analogy


Dewey

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Reply with quote  #166 
bhblue - Thanks.  I don't think a stimulus is intended to be a long term solution but instead to prevent falling into the abyss.  I think it worked and I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the negative effects of the stimulus.  How does giving $250 Billion to States, $250 Billion to the folks, and $250 Billion in infrastructure investment effect economic growth any differently than war spending or drugs for the elderly?  The Government can pump money into the economy or it can give it to the people to do the pumping.  I suspect economic advisers felt Government could direct the stimulus funds in a manner where they'd do more good.  Some here will say no, they should have let the "job creators" keep that money and put it to better use.  Good argument but your so called job creators are already loaded with cash.  They would have sat on these funds. 

I appreciate your answer but by now you understand I believe the global economic crisis, oil prices, and newly divided Government have severely interrupted what otherwise was a stimulus induced and ever improving economy. 
bhblue

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Reply with quote  #167 

Dewey - The biggest negative effect is that $800 billion in additional debt will slow private investment, which is crucial to long-term growth.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #168 
bhblue - I don't mean to keep you hanging on but allow me to say two more things.  There was something, I believe it to be the stimulus, that pushed us to record heights in our 2010 GDP.  Now this level of economic output has to generate significant tax revenues as well.  Now in no way am I trying to suggest these revenues offset the spending but they must have made a significant dent in the total cost.  Even if the stimulus added $500 billion to the debt, I'm dumbstruck that some think $14.1 trillion debt and the economy will recover while $14.6 trillion is an economy killer.

Finally, are you a believer that when the consumer stops spending, Government has to step in and play a significant role to stop the whole system from collapsing?  I thought this was a common understanding.  I wanted to also ask if you think it was a mistake to give money to the States to keep important security and educational folks on the job but I think I've overstayed my welcome.  Thanks again. 
woody

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Reply with quote  #169 
Just keep spending and printing Dewey. Spend and print. And repeat until collapse of the economy.
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
Dewey

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Posts: 24,423
Reply with quote  #170 

If you're on the fence...

On a piece of paper, draw a large capital "V".  The left side will represent jobs being lost, (13 straight months), and the right side will represent jobs added, (17 straight months).  These jobs are private sector jobs.  Now half way down the left side, make a mark.  This represents President Obama assuming office.  There are two points to be made:

1)  Republicans want you to use this mark on the left side as the starting point for any barometer measuring jobs.  Democrats want you to use the bottom of the "V" when the Administration stopped the bleeding and started adding jobs.  I think Republicans are being unfair using their mark in the midst of a job loss streak during the collapsing economy.  Using their mark will indicate little change in jobs added during the Obama Presidency.  This argument will be ongoing for years to come so hopefully this is clear.

2)  The 17 consecutive months of jobs added has totaled about 2.5 million.  That's not very good as many expected this to be 4 or 5 million or more.  The left side represents about 8.5 million jobs being lost.  As for only 2.5 million being added to date, you'll have to personally determine if this is a structural problem in our economy, something the Administration has failed to do, or the result of a global economic crisis including high gasoline prices and the like.  There are many folks trying to figure this out as we speak.

PS:  Recently, I had a nice conversation with another member who wondered why I continue to engage in this forum and subject myself to some of the heat I take?  Like I've told all of you, I'm a bit of a political junkie who watches Hannity, O'Reilly, and listens to Limbaugh as well as many other programs.  You can imagine how often I throw my arms up and say, "no way".  Well, similar stuff goes on around here and I have the opportunity to share those thoughts where I'm unable to do elsewhere.  Everyone here will have to make their own call whether it's all spin or not but, outside of the opposition, I hope the rest of you don't mind me doing it around here.  It is a bit cathartic.

woody

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Reply with quote  #171 
Dewey, I am the same way, only I watch the MSNBC talking heads, AKA as the Obama reelection committee news channel. I must tell you, the President may have control of the rudder on a ship, but the Congress is what powers it. I think you must look at who was in control of congress and how that relates to the economy during the period of time you mentioned. P.S. since all the talking heads on MSNBC took vacation the past week or more, I wonder how many of them happened to be at Martha's Vineyard?
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #172 
fanatic - Is that what really happened during the "trickle down" and "a rising tide floats all boats" times??   I guess you would have to ask the lower middle class and the working poor to get a different perspective.  Those who benefitted naturally applaud the concepts.  I assume that you are one of those who benefitted.  More millionaires created than ever in history, and the widest gap between the wealthy and the poor in history in our country would tend to argue against your perspective of reality.  By the way, I think that "priming the pump" is equally ludicrous as a micro economic booster.  Historically neither has worked unless one considers the era of the Robber Barons a good thing.  
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #173 
fanatic - Is that what really happened during the "trickle down" and "a rising tide floats all boats" times??   I guess you would have to ask the lower middle class and the working poor to get a different perspective.  Those who benefitted naturally applaud the concepts.  I assume that you are one of those who benefitted.  More millionaires created than ever in history, and the widest gap between the wealthy and the poor in history in our country would tend to argue against your perspective of reality.  By the way, I think that "priming the pump" is equally ludicrous as a micro economic booster.  Historically neither has worked unless one considers the era of the Robber Barons a good thing.  No doubt that it was a boon for the Robber Barons.  
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Reply with quote  #174 
Joiseyguy - if there is no trickle down why did we have to save GM?
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Susan
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #175 
Susan - That "saving" was not "trickle down" but rather "prime the pump".  In 1922  US Steel (Republican administration) was declared a "benevolent trust" and not subject to federal anti trust laws. It was about jobs and the micro economy.  It's the same type situation.  Politically and economically, the federal government could not allow failure of  a major corporation.  So it goes.    
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #176 
Susan - That "saving" of GM was not "trickle down" but rather "prime the pump".  In 1922  US Steel (Republican administration) was declared a "benevolent trust" and not subject to federal anti trust laws. It was about jobs and the micro economy.  It's the same type situation.  Politically and economically, the federal government could not allow failure of  a major corporation.  So it goes.    
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Posts: 24,434
Reply with quote  #177 
Susan - That "saving" of GM was not "trickle down" but rather "prime the pump".  In 1922  US Steel (Republican administration) was declared a "benevolent trust" and not subject to federal anti trust laws. It was about jobs lost and the micro economy.  It's the same type situation.  Politically and economically, the federal government could not allow failure of  a major corporation within the micro economy.  So it goes.    
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
sbmom1812

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Posts: 3,002
Reply with quote  #178 
no joiseyguy its not just the corps.  even from what the govt said.  its all the parts guys, the used car guys, etc... tha get effected by it too.  I dont agree with the bailout!  But the above as well as bailing out their union buddies and in essence giving them ownership of GM is why.
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Susan
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #179 

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody

Dewey, I must tell you, the President may have control of the rudder on a ship, but the Congress is what powers it. I think you must look at who was in control of congress and how that relates to the economy during the period of time you mentioned.


woody - I tried to play that game when I noted our record GDP in 2010 compared to a very lean GDP so far in 2011.  I think we both know it's a very silly game.  All it does is make one dizzy.
woody

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Reply with quote  #180 
The President can advocate and plead His case for any expenditures He and His administration desires, but Congress controls the purse strings. That is unless you count executive orders and departments within the Federal government that can enact regulations on a whim, without Congressional approval, and hope they have the funding the next year to enforce them.
__________________
Rats flee from the sinking vessel. They traverse nimbly upon a rope, safely cleated to the dock, that is private enterprise. Socialism is dead, and tits up in the water. A bloated, death show, for rubberneckers of all classes to view.

"IT'S GOOD TO BE DA KING"
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