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Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #1 

I found out what I had suspected, that some friends of mine paid a recruiter at a tournament we were at this summer. I have been asking about their DD's prospects and they said they had about three and only one had her major, but wasn't in the region she wanted to play in and the others didn't have her major. What kinds of questions did this dopey recruiter ask? What's your bank account number?

 

Now for those that are new to this site, I found out about the recruiting process late, but this site and the MU softball camp helped a bunch. I found out that I could do what was needed, but would have to hustle because my DD was already a senior. We found her a gold team, we found schools that had her major, sent e-mails, filled out questionnaires, got her some exposure and the rest is history. She is having a great time at school and is on the student senate and is on the student/campus life committee. She even landed a job with the athletic dept.

 

Now as far as my friends DD I have found some schools for her and she has scheduled some visits. All have her major and they are in her region. I just wish they had never wasted that hard earned money.

 

I'm going to talk to the High School coach and see if I can't come in every year at the beginning of the season and talk to the girls after buying and reading the recruiting bible (Cathi Aradi) that I have read so much about here. I want to see what I can do to help the girls in this one horse town. I will also buy a copy and donate it to the library for the girls so they can check it out whenever they want.  I don't want a dime from any of these kids or their parents. A thank you would be nice, but seeing them have fun and succeed in life would out weigh that thank you!

 

All I can say is beware!!!

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
Chapple

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Reply with quote  #2 

These are good points.   I would also say the college coaches are also becoming aware of the situation and wish to inform players and parents about what is important in looking for colleges for softball.  An example is at Kansas where they are having one.  http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/w-softbl/spec-rel/111706aaa.html.

 

I'm sure there are other schools that are providing this service as well. 

BigTenCountry

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Reply with quote  #3 

I know this is for track, but there is a lot of good information about choosing a school here at the Minnesota Women's Track site.

 

http://www.gophersports.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8400&KEY=&SPID=3300&SPSID=38893

 

While some is track/cross country related, there are similar questions that could be asked of softball coaches. Much of the rest is good for anyone.

Original_Coach

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Reply with quote  #4 
James, Okay Truck driver! After ripping me. I have to do this. What is a recuiters? Coach
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Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #5 

That would be more than one......recruiter  (Spelled correctly) I didn't call anybody ignorant, cause I knows I live in a glass house!

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
Sly

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Reply with quote  #6 

Wait a minute...I'm lost. 

 

"paid a recruiter at a tournament we were at this summer."

 

Paid a recruiter to do what?

Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #7 

You have never seen these recruiters at tournaments that promise the moon all for a fee?

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
Sly

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Reply with quote  #8 

Never even heard of them. Do they say they represent a particular school?

 

Are they selling themselves to be agents?

 

In Socal there are "programs" that ask for much $$$ to play on one of their teams.  The hype is that "if you let your DD play for us it's a guarantee she'll get a scholarship," etc.

 

I have never seen or heard of "these recruiters at tournaments that promise the moon all for a fee."

 

 

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #9 
Sly - I believe that the problem here is a matter of semantics. What one person calls a recruiter, another calls an agent. There are organizations who sell a service that includes making a tape, contacting various schools, and writing a blurb about a potential recruit. Their selling point is that they enhance the player's opportunities of getting a scholarship. For this they naturally charge a fee - that's why they exist. Max calls their legitimacy and perhaps their effectiveness into question. That is a good subject for another thread in which those who have used these "agents" could discuss results and also the "bang for the buck".
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #10 

I was hoping this would start something like that Frank, because this guy was obviously a novice at best. Like I said what questions did he ask besides what is your bank account number.

 

This guy reminds me of these modeling agencies that hang around malls and charge people astronomical fees and they usually get nothing from it other than a sore seat.

 

Maybe there are legitimate agents/recruiters out there but as many have said you can do most of this on your own if what I have learned here is true. I think they suck people in with hopes of a D-1 school when they have no business there.

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #11 
Max - I'm sure that you hear this all the time, but for what it's worth, I think that you are a good man with noble intent.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #12 
Biscuit - I'm big time guessing, but I'd say that a person (Clyde from the street) can''t act as an agent, but a business can. Can a travel ball coach? What's the difference, except perhaps primary goal and intent?
P.S. A college coaching friend just yesterday told me about a guy who came up to him and said, "There's a kid on field whatever that you just have to see". Was he an agent? This happens all the time. The coach recruited and signed the kid. Was a rule broken? I have recommended many players to numerous coaches for their scrutiny; did I break a rule? I think that all coaches have "networks". Are they breaking rules? AAU basketball coaches have made the process of "selling" kids to colleges legendary. When I was a cancer patient, a wonderful player and person at Alabama was my "prayer warrior" (her term). For her 21st birthday I sent her a heartfelt present, but she had to return it because I had made a donation to the softball team and was considered a "booster" (remember the hassle at Notre Dame in which the University was reprimanded because a female felon had made a donation of $25 to the school and was thus tied in as a "booster"?) She gave money and gifts to football players (the university had nothing to do with this), something I no longer do for any program because of the constraints it puts me under. Some day I will understand the logic of the NCAA rules, but today is not that day. I do understand the generalities; it's the specific applications that throw me.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Sly

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Reply with quote  #13 

O-K, I know what your talking about now.  I never heard them referred to as "recruiters" before.

 

 

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #14 
Biscuit - What if "Agent Bill" is a coach? Is it all right then? AAU basketball coaches are notorious "agents". I know of several outfits that make up a "package" (for a fee) of a personal softball tape, statistical background, honors, academic achievements and standing, a public relations statement, candid picture, etc. with a selling point that this will help a player get a scholarship. I don't know if they contact schools or not. My guess is that they don't in order to abide by NCAA rules. I don't know who sends the package to the schools chosen. My guess would be the player. These, I think, are the ones that Max is unhappy with.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #15 
Biscuit - Mea Culpa - it must be the company I keep!! Or maybe Nort Joisey and Da City?
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #16 

The kid is signing and she will have a great coach (Athletically and Academically) and she is very happy with her decision. Her family is happy and so am I. I wish her and my daughter could have played together again, but it was not to be. We all know that everything happens for a reason or so my Grandma told me.

 

What more can you ask for? Mission accomplished!

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
Knife10

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Reply with quote  #17 

A few facts about college recruiting, definitions, and services.

 

1)  The NCAA prohibits agents.  An agent is defined as someone who negotiates and takes a percentage of a scholarship award to a student-athlete.  "Recruiters" can charge for their service but it must be a flat fee and recruiters can not guarantee that a student athlete will receive a scholarship.  And yes, these recruiters can contact college coaches on behalf of your daughter.  In fact, college coaches love the quality services because of their small recruiting budgets.  (See point 3 below.)

 

2)  There are 3 ways to market your softball playing daughter.  All are valid but the results are different.  First, you can do nothing and hope your daughter gets discovered.  There are approximately 7500 softball players recruited to colleges at all levels (D1, D2, D3, NAIA, Juco) every year.  Of those, roughly 200 fall into the "discovered" category.  Primarily they're the pitchers that all colleges crave.  6'0" tall and a 65+ MPH fast ball.  If you're not one of those -- you will not be discovered!  So don't do nothing.  Be proactive.  Second, you can do it yourself.  This takes a lot of work in research.  Plus, most parents will only focus on name programs not bothering to explore the tremendous educational and financial aid opportunities at some less well-known institutions.  More importantly, if this is your first time through college recruiting, could you make a mistake?  Could your mistakes cost your daughter an opportunity to play softball in college and receive a significant amount of funding to do so?  Not to mention the mis-information from perceived to be trusted sources who are not up on the latest rules.  Or the guy who has 3 daughter that's playing college softball.  Every situation is different.  Just because techniques worked for that dad doesn't mean his techniques will work in your situation.  Third, you can get help from an expert who maximizes your daughter's recruiting potential.  Are there companies who won't get the job done or not reputable?  You betcha!  Are there others who do a great job and paint realistic expectations while delivering better than expected results.  Also, you betcha.  So I think it's unfair to label all companies with same "phoney" term.  Having said that, how do you know who to use if you should want some help?  One good way, make sure the company has a money back guarantee ON THEIR SERVICE.  As I stated above, they can't guarantee that your daughter will receive a scholarship since that's a blatant violation of NCAA rules.  However, the service should have a guarantee on their service that refunds most of the money you pay if you're not happy.  That service should include providing opportunities for your daughter and guidance on how to follow up with those opportunities. 

 

3)  College softball is a non-revenue sport.  As such the average recruiting budget for a medium level program is about $1,000.  That's not a lot of money to find out about players.  As such, coaches like all of the help they can get to identify talent.  They use trusted sources.  Some of these trusted sources fall in the category of "recruiting" service.  Not all of them.  Not the mass mailers.  But there are some good ones.  If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself.  That's okay.  There are legitimate organizations who provide that help.  And, yes, they charge a fee.  If you choose to do it yourself.  That's great too.  At least you're being proactive.  The saddest story is the parent or kid who thinks that if it's meant to happen, it'll happen.  That's the wrong way to play the recruiting game -- unless you're that 6'0" tall pitcher I mentioned earlier.

 

4)  To conclude, since she was in 4th grade, I invested about $25,000 in my daughter's softball (lessons, travel, equipment, recruiting, etc.)  The best investment, though, was in the recruiting service who was recommended by her club coach.  She's playing D1 softball at the 15th academically rated university.  Tuition, books, room and board at this private institution amounts to $43,000 per year.  I didn't have to write a check for her school this year.  Do you think I'm happy I got some help?

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #18 
Knife 10 - Well, I'd have to say that your post certainly cuts to the chase (pun intended). Always good to hear an educated perspective.
P.S. As is true of so many services, it is the quality of the service that is important - and the quality of the product they have to sell.

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #19 
Biscuit - "Enriches the spirit and body" - That can be the end; all ends are not financial. For some the "end" might be personal growth, a social set, or perhaps getting into a university that otherwise would reject their application. Athletics can be a "means" to many ends; the scholarship is one of them.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Knife10

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Reply with quote  #20 

Seabiscuit:

 

The key to your post and the key to mine is that I specifically defined "discovered" as someone who does absolutely nothing.  That's the first way to market.  It's really no way to market since it's like trying to hit the lotto.  It doesn't happen except in the rarest of cases.  The other 2 ways of marketing are doing it yourself and using a service.  In your case, all of your recruited athletes wrote letters to college coaches.  This is what got them on those coaches' watch list.  Coaches go to all of the gold events, Boulder, Lancaster, Vegas, etc. to watch players they already know about.  They even exchange information on players.  You ask any college coach at any of those tournaments who they're there to watch, and if they're honest, they'll show you their list.  I guarantee you that none will say, "I'm here to see what I can find."  That just wouldn't be efficient for them.   I know, because I surveyed tons of coaches when I went to those events.  I also have several friends who are recruiting coordinators at major college programs.  They don't go to "discover" talent. 

 

So when you said, "Don't get me wrong, she worked hard at sending letters and contacting college coaches. That part was necessary."  That proves my point that kids who want to be recruited need to be proactive.   Coaches talk, have been on others' staffs, and have a network.   One of those coaches the kid wrote to probably referred her to another coach as a favor.  Especially if the first coach wasn't recruiting that particular position for that year.  That's why it's important that those girls wrote letters to college coaches.  If you're a travel coach with several years experience, I'll bet you've recommended a girl to another coach, if you didn't have a fit.  Or another coach has contacted you to see if you had an opening for someone he/she couldn't place on their team.  The same happens in college.  I'm happy for the girls you cited that they were given the guidance to write college coaches.  That's being proactive and necessary to being recruited. 

 

Now there are those who don't want to trust that exercise to their 9th and 10th grade daughters and that's where the recruiting service comes in.  It's not a must have.  It's a legitimate option, though.  To give you some more examples of recruiting service help:  I saw a mid-level 'A' pitcher receive a 90% ride at a D1 school in late July, after she graduated the prior May.  I saw another receive 85% at a D1 school after being rejected by 90 out of 96 schools who looked at her.  Other kids I'm familiar with have gone to Dartmouth, Yale, Emory, St. Louis U., Williams, Ball State, UIC, SE Missouri State,and Northwestern using the aid of a recruiting service.  The value was in providing oportunities, but more importantly, guidance throughout the process.  Finally, because they had help, the student-athlete had more perceived value in the eyes of the college coach because of all of the schools interested in that kid.  A legitimate recruiting service can help maximize recruiting potential.  It's an OPTION.  It's not a necessity.  And there are some good ones.  With all of your great stories, what about those girls on Spy Softball's Unsigned Seniors list.  Spy does a great service in helping those kids, but what did some of those great kids do wrong that they're still on that list?  At this point in time, what percentage of those kids do you think will find a suitable college softball home?  I hope they all do, but I fear that they won't.  Each student-athlete only gets to go through the recruiting process one time.  If they blow it due to lack of experience or lack of sound advice, there are no do-overs.  And, choosing the right college is not a 4 year decision, it's a 50 year decision.  The right college fit can set the kid up for life.  A good recruiting service can maximize being prepared for making that 50-year decision.   

 

Finally, your comment about talent is true.  Being from the midwest, I agree that the best talent is in CA.  (That's why my softball expenses were so high!) The reasons: huge population, outstanding coaching, weather where you can play year around, etc.  However, there is great talent in other places.  It's just not as concentrated.  This was proven in 2004 when the Illinois Southern Force won gold nationals and in 2005 when Michigan won the College World Series. 

Peacekeeper

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Reply with quote  #21 

 So I think it's unfair to label all companies with same "phoney" term. 

========================================================

 

If the shoes doesn't fit, one should not wear it Grasshopper!

 

I did enjoy your post.

 

With all of your great stories, what about those girls on Spy Softball's Unsigned Seniors list.  Spy does a great service in helping those kids, but what did some of those great kids do wrong that they're still on that list? 

======================================================

 

Maybe their talent level wasn't what the schools they approached were looking for. Some are looking to play above where they should be. Maybe like some of the kids we have all probably heard say "Oh I'm not playing for anything less than a D 1 school!", when a JUCO might be there best bet at bettering themselves to get to that next level. There are probably a myriad of reasons why they are there, but I just thought I would throw that out there.

 

Peacekeeper


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James Maxwell

My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging.
Hank Aaron
zephyrcoach

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Reply with quote  #22 

Spy's list is a wonderful tool to get the names of quality unsigned seniors out to the coaches...but the signed players are rarely removed from the list. What you see today is really not a good representation of who got signed and who did not. All but one of our (Zephyrs Gold) 07 players signed in the early signing period. Rayburn was notified but I am sure he has much bigger issues on his plate than to worry too much about removing signed players.

I am sure many of the players on the list have already found a college home and the ones who did not are working hard to make it happen soon.

Knife10

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Reply with quote  #23 

Mr. Peacekeeper:

 

Excellent point and one more reason that a legitimate option is a recruiting service.  Certainly, a proactive student-athlete can get herself recruited if she's looking at the right level.  But many student-athletes have unrealistic expectations.  This could be caused by her immaturity or it could emanate from her parents who've always said, "You're the best and you should be playing D1."  The service option can help paint realistic expectations by providing a objective assessment of each individual's unique situation.  More importantly, it can provide introductions to the right college coaches and educate a student athlete on how to increase her value in those coaches' eyes. 

NFSentinel

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Reply with quote  #24 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabiscuit
knife10 said: "This could be caused by her immaturity or it could emanate from her parents who've always said, "You're the best and you should be playing D1." "

After watching some of the teams that play D1 ball you can believe me when I say that, while D1 has many great players, there are tons of players on D1 teams that aren't anywhere near the best!

 

That's because being on a D-1 team isn't an indicator of how good you are. It is about being at the right place at the right time, or from the right state.

fpsb

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFSentinel

That's because being on a D-1 team isn't (necessarily) an indicator of how good you are. It is about being at the right place at the right time, or from the right state.

I would have agreed with your post if you had added just one word.  There are a few examples of when it is an indicator.

Knife10

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Reply with quote  #26 

Great points, all.  This introduces into the discussion that there is an element of luck involved.  I believe that most people make their own luck through preparation and hard work.  When it comes to recruiting, student-athletes can make their own luck by putting themselves in a recruitable position.  So what is that?  First, be of good character.  College coaches want to know that you are dependable and that you'll work hard.  Second, get great grades.  Grades are not a reflection of how smart you are; they're a reflection of how hard you work.  Third, work hard on your athletic and softball skills.  Play hard every second of every game, regardless of the score.  Finally, play the recruiting numbers game.  There are over 1500 college softball programs at all levels.  The more coaches who know about a student-athlete, the more opportunities that student-athlete will have to find the right fit - financially, academically, socially, and athletically.

BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #27 

Short version:

 

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."


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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
BillSmith

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Reply with quote  #28 
Agreed. Common question I was asked by people observing football teams I coached. "Why isn't Joey (our best athlete) at quarterback?" Simple. Couldn't handle the pressure, couldn't pull the trigger, didn't have the poise, therefore, never was in a position to be our quarterback, `cause he didn't have that position's required skill set to be "lucky". I will say, that you can prepare to the point where poise MIGHT be acheived. I like to think we can assess their ability to be 'decision makers'. If I am reading you right "Seabiscuit", you might agree with me that there seems to be a wall or ceiling limit on players where some cannot ascend higher than their perception of the level of their own competence. Fine in practice, freeze under the lights. I prepared as a player, pissed coaches off because I might fall asleep bored on the way to a game. Now, asking my wife out for our first date... I almost froze... LOL... we each have our thresholds and strengths... wish parents were better at recognizing those aspects in their student/athlete.
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Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
Knife10

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Reply with quote  #29 

Wow!  There's a lot of wise advice from a lot of sources provided on this thread.  Do you think any of the youngsters (and their parents), the objects of this advice, are reading and using it?

mobunts48

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Reply with quote  #30 

To answer your question about the parents and players reading this thread and using it.

Unfortunately only a small percentage of parents read or follow this kind of material.

Those are the parents and kids who make it,those who don't fall through the cracks.

Most parents need to be more educated about how all of this works instead of thinking she is good enough they will find her.

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