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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDad
Pudge posted: Once again PD you are changing what we are discussing. The conversation is about the phrase "dominate the series", :They hit every pitcher they faced........And, they hit with power....... & No other team could match their hitting."

Every single one of these quotes is inaccurate! ASU did NOT "dominate" the series. They dominated TX A&M in game two. But, the entire series? HECK no! They played well enough to win. They had clutch hits (and help), when they needed. They are the national champs.

I have never disputed that. My problem with this is the word usage.

Now, did ASU hit a few HR's? Sure. Were they the most powerful hitting team, based off of their performance in OKC? NO!. No other team could match their hitting? It took game 2 of the championship finals to get ASU in the top hitting stats categories at  the World Series. In the end they still weren't the best hitting team their (I know, I know, but they were the best team, but not what we are talking about!).

OK Pudge: Questions
  1. Did ASU pitching give up fewer runs then any other team in the WCWS?
  2. Was there a team that scored as many runs as ASU in the series?
  3. Was there a team that won by a larger margin of runs than ASU did in the Championship Game?
  4. Was there a team that had a greater run differential in the series than ASU?
  5. Was there another team that was undefeated in the series.
  6. Did Alabama benefit from a call where the ball hit the batters bat and the umpire not call it for a strike? Did that runner end of walking? Scoring? So the lead temporary lead they enjoyed was from a bad call correct?
  7. Did any team have more batters walked than ASU? Did these walks contribute to their offensive production?
  8. Did any other team have more intentional walks issued to them than ASU. Does this mean the other teams did not want to face these hitters? Was this strategy successful to the teams that employed it?

In closing I would make these statements. If ASU was the only team to win all of their games, give up fewer runs by more than half than their closest rival, If their offense was so potent that that teams intentionally walked, walked or hit more batters than any other team by a wide margin, If they hit more home runs than any other team, if they scored twice as many runs as their closest rival, If they pitched 3 shut outs in five games, If they averaged nearly five runs a game while averaging .4 runs scored against them, If they did this against the number 2/3/5 seeded teams then why would this not be dominant. Does not dominant mean commanding, controlling or prevailing over all others? Did ASU not do this. I use this yardstick for you Pudge. The only game they were in danger of losing was the first game. You only comment on the call that went against Alabama and not the one that went against ASU. UCLA never threatened to score five runs against ASU, Alabama never threatened to score four and A&M certainly did not threaten to score four or twelve. So if you are not threatening to win then you must have been dominated by the team that was in control and prevailed over all of the other teams. A team does not have to score 10 runs and throw a shut out to dominate. ASU rests.

1. Yes
2. No. Numbers slightly skewed due to blowout in championship game #2 against a pitcher who was done after the 3 run hr by your DD.
3. See answer to #2
4. Once again, See #2
5. No.
6. Have to go back and check on that play. I don't remember ASU complaining about a call.
7. Your DD's situation skews the numbers. Remove her from the equation and the walks are very similar in the Alabama games even with the HBPs.
8. See answer to #7. They didn't want to face #16. Who else received an IBB? Almost all of the HBPs were after 2 strikes. That is poor control (IMO).

IMO, you are dominating when you come out an assert your control of the game from the start (check ASU's game against Radford early in the season). When the outcome is not in doubt (ASU vs TX A&M gm #2), THAT IMO is dominating. You can say that ASU dominated UCLA. I hesitate to, because UCLA seemed asleep, and I find it hard to call that a softball game. The Alabama games were back and forth hard fought wins for ASU. ASu won. But, they did NOT dominate Alabama, in either game. The Texas A&M series was kind of easy. But, I wouldn't call it a TEAM domination in game 1. Burkhart looked dominant. But, ASU didn't as a team dominate them until game 2.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #32 
ProudDad, your daughter caused the numbers to be skewed......UCLA slept.....Texas A&M was easy......

Who would have thought?......
Sftblchick

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Reply with quote  #33 

Pudge, you certainly have very high standards for what you call "dominating"--is there any team in RECENT years that you felt dominated, according to your standards, at the World Series? Could you then compare that to ASU's games at the World Series in 2008?

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #34 

ProudDad, ya'll didn't dominate...

It was just easy........Well, kind of easy.......And, that daughter of yours skewing those numbers like she did sure didn't help.......Come to think of it, if they had pitched more to her she would have really skewed the numbers and made a lopsided mess we'd probably never get figured out....


UCLA 

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #35 
8 fine teams competed in the 2008 WCWS. One team emerged as national champion, and that was ASU. Personally, I thought that Burkhart "dominated" in the circle as did Tincher. That is generally true of a national champion in this tourney. Remember Mowatt last year? To completely dominate seven other fine teams who have won the right to be there is asking a bit much , I'd say. It's still a team game and all facets must be positive to win a national championship amid great competition. Just ask Cat and Monica.
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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #36 
BlueDog.....With all due respect I wasnt going to engage you in this conversation but the more I thought about it I just had to say something.....
Your Blue Highlights and discussions on hitting has some merits but some very obvious flaws as well......


Now, I'm on the record saying most softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of how MLB hitters swing a bat.....You know, it would help them to understand the swing and be able to teach it alot better........ Softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of knowing what they are teaching hitters PERIOD. I have had the benefit of attending many different coaches practices at all levels. I have enjoyed many long conversations about hitting with many different hitting coaches. The one thing that I have learned is a lot of coaches say one thing (use terms and language) when they are talking hitting, but teach something completely different than what they are saying. An understanding of the "MLB swing" (which in itself is an interesting term to me) really won't benefit coaches too much. I have an understanding of Biology. I sure as heck can't teach it! I am a big believer that you have to immerse yourself completely into hitting. Study it. Talk it. Try it. Break it down. Spend MANY hours learning, seeing, and TALKING about the skill. I emphasize talking because if you can't talk about hitting, I don't believe you can teach it.
I will agree with you so far....however the MLB Swing is what many consider the top level swing of those in diamond sports...
The problem lies with those that have book knowledge and yet cant convey it to those that need it. However, to be effective and consistent a "Good" Instructor must be willing to work through their own issues and adjust.
 
Communicating your theories to the players is HUGE! I know hitting coaches who can't sit down and explain what they teach. So, how can their players learn it? I believe you should be able to demonstrate what you teach. Players learn in different ways. Hearing works from some. Seeing works for others. Some need both. 
This may be so, but to be a good teacher of hitting one must be able to help all of your students learn the same techniques that are biomechanically correct.

Pudge, do you feel you have a decent understanding of how MLB hitters swing the bat?....And, do you think it matters? I don't use the terms "MLB Swing", "baseball swing", or "softball swing". I believe you either have a good swing or a bad one. I believe every good swing has its "absolutes". I believe lumping all MLB hitters into the same mold is crazy. Most of them have the absolutes in their mechanics. But, most them arrive to the ball differently. There amazing athletic ability, talent, and many years of work help them overcome the "extras" in their mechanics.
Interesting comments pertaining to good swing or bad swing.....Please define what is a good swing and what is a bad swing. Granted a baseball or softball swing is one in the same. The pitches may come from differing release points, however the strike zone is supposed to be the same....Supposed to.....
When you state that they all have the same absolutes in their swing....I would like for you to please explain this as well....
Absolutes meaning that they all load the same way? They all rotate around their front hip?(Front Axis)...They all bring their arms(ie: box) around and not define using your hands in their teaching....another misnomer.....Hitters use their hands to hold the bat....The arms are in a box and are levers for the rotation where by they extend as the rotation reaches a certain point....
Is this what you mean?
They all arrive at the ball differently? How so? Break down a Baseball players swing from the Majors.....
Lets say.....Pujols, Bonds, Griffey Jr.,
Im hoping what your trying to say is that they may all start in differing locations in relation where the bat is......the bend in their legs....
But.....where you fall apart my friend is when you state they all arrive at the ball differently.....That is totally incorrect...Im sorry.....
Go watch videos of their swings.....
No matter where they start their bats or anything...once the swing starts the consistency of the swing in relation to each other is the same.....There is no real difference in the swing....

I believe I have a very good understanding of how to teach hitting. I am one of those fanatics that started studying the art at a really young age (I use to video tape great hitters when I was 7 or 8, and still have and use those tapes to show my players what we are trying to accomplish). As I said earlier, I think having the ability to  communicate your theories verbally and visually is what really
matters.
Using video tapes of hitters is a very good tool for teaching. In fact Steve Englishbey is one of the better teachers of hitting out of Houston and he supports this idea.....
BTW: Before the Major League Snooty People found out a website named Siggys had some wonderful comparisons of peoples swings....
 
Compare Kirsten Rivera to Pujols or Manny.......
Looks very similar....



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gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #37 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter

Using video tapes of hitters is a very good tool for teaching. In fact Steve Englishbey is one of the better teachers of hitting out of Houston and he supports this idea.....
BTW: Before the Major League Snooty People found out a website named Siggys had some wonderful comparisons of peoples swings....
 
Compare Kirsten Rivera to Pujols or Manny.......
Looks very similar....




Bingo Rocklifter.



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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #38 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
BlueDog.....With all due respect I wasnt going to engage you in this conversation but the more I thought about it I just had to say something.....
Your Blue Highlights and discussions on hitting has some merits but some very obvious flaws as well......


Now, I'm on the record saying most softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of how MLB hitters swing a bat.....You know, it would help them to understand the swing and be able to teach it alot better........ Softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of knowing what they are teaching hitters PERIOD. I have had the benefit of attending many different coaches practices at all levels. I have enjoyed many long conversations about hitting with many different hitting coaches. The one thing that I have learned is a lot of coaches say one thing (use terms and language) when they are talking hitting, but teach something completely different than what they are saying. An understanding of the "MLB swing" (which in itself is an interesting term to me) really won't benefit coaches too much. I have an understanding of Biology. I sure as heck can't teach it! I am a big believer that you have to immerse yourself completely into hitting. Study it. Talk it. Try it. Break it down. Spend MANY hours learning, seeing, and TALKING about the skill. I emphasize talking because if you can't talk about hitting, I don't believe you can teach it.
I will agree with you so far....however the MLB Swing is what many consider the top level swing of those in diamond sports...
The problem lies with those that have book knowledge and yet cant convey it to those that need it. However, to be effective and consistent a "Good" Instructor must be willing to work through their own issues and adjust. I agree that a hitting instructor needs "work through their own issues". As for the MLB Swing is just another term that is thrown out to the masses (IMO). The "MLB Swing" makes one think that there is one specific set of mechanics that incorporates what this means. And it isn't true. There is a BIG difference between Manny, Albert, Big Papi, Alex Rodriguez, Bonds, Bustos, Jung, Rivera, & Mendoza. And lumping them all together and calling it the MLB swing because they are all great hitters is wrong.
 
Communicating your theories to the players is HUGE! I know hitting coaches who can't sit down and explain what they teach. So, how can their players learn it? I believe you should be able to demonstrate what you teach. Players learn in different ways. Hearing works from some. Seeing works for others. Some need both. 
This may be so, but to be a good teacher of hitting one must be able to help all of your students learn the same techniques that are biomechanically correct. Who is the definitive source that says what is or isn't biomechanically correct?

Pudge, do you feel you have a decent understanding of how MLB hitters swing the bat?....And, do you think it matters? I don't use the terms "MLB Swing", "baseball swing", or "softball swing". I believe you either have a good swing or a bad one. I believe every good swing has its "absolutes". I believe lumping all MLB hitters into the same mold is crazy. Most of them have the absolutes in their mechanics. But, most them arrive to the ball differently. There amazing athletic ability, talent, and many years of work help them overcome the "extras" in their mechanics.
Interesting comments pertaining to good swing or bad swing.....Please define what is a good swing and what is a bad swing. Granted a baseball or softball swing is one in the same. The pitches may come from differing release points, however the strike zone is supposed to be the same....Supposed to.....
When you state that they all have the same absolutes in their swing....I would like for you to please explain this as well....
Absolutes meaning that they all load the same way? They all rotate around their front hip?(Front Axis)...They all bring their arms(ie: box) around and not define using your hands in their teaching....another misnomer.....Hitters use their hands to hold the bat....The arms are in a box and are levers for the rotation where by they extend as the rotation reaches a certain point....
Is this what you mean? No. My "absolutes" of hitting are pretty simple. I believe the hitter has to get their front foot down early enough for everything else to flow properly. Second "absolute" is the player has limit the amount of distance the hands get away from the body.
They all arrive at the ball differently? How so? Break down a Baseball players swing from the Majors.....
Lets say.....Pujols, Bonds, Griffey Jr.,

Ok.
 
Griffey has the sweetest looking swing of the 3 (IMO). He is vertical at the start, glides to the ball (in his stride). Griffey's arms nearly straighten out when his hands go back during his stride. As he is going to the ball, his hands come down, his arms remain nearly straight, and has a nice loop to the ball.. He has a loop in his swing. He approaches the ball from low to high.
 
Bonds swings low to high as well. But he leads with his Front elbow (which usually remains up, as his back elbow enters the slot. Bonds's hands are usually  Palm up/palm down near the center of his torso when he is making contact.
 
Pujols is a sweeper. He is flatter going through the zone. Much like Griffey Albert's hands get away from his body pretty early. He usually makes contact with his hands to the side of his Torso (think arm bar).

Im hoping what your trying to say is that they may all start in differing locations in relation where the bat is......the bend in their legs....
But.....where you fall apart my friend is when you state they all arrive at the ball differently.....That is totally incorrect...Im sorry.....
Go watch videos of their swings..... If a hitter consistently swings flat, and another gets under the ball with a severe upper cut, is this not two different ways of getting to the ball? If one drops his hands everytime he swings and comes down and under the ball, while another goes from point a to contact in a straight line, that is two different ways of arriving at the ball, right?
No matter where they start their bats or anything...once the swing starts the consistency of the swing in relation to each other is the same.....There is no real difference in the swing.... Now you need to go back and watch some video. slow it down, frame by frame. Better yet, get a cprogram where you can compare them side by side. I did.

I believe I have a very good understanding of how to teach hitting. I am one of those fanatics that started studying the art at a really young age (I use to video tape great hitters when I was 7 or 8, and still have and use those tapes to show my players what we are trying to accomplish). As I said earlier, I think having the ability to  communicate your theories verbally and visually is what really
matters.
Using video tapes of hitters is a very good tool for teaching. In fact Steve Englishbey is one of the better teachers of hitting out of Houston and he supports this idea.....
BTW: Before the Major League Snooty People found out a website named Siggys had some wonderful comparisons of peoples swings....
 
Compare Kirsten Rivera to Pujols or Manny.......
Looks very similar.... Looks similar. But, not the same!



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DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #39 
This is why it is so difficult to discuss swinging (different from hitting   ).  You really need side by side video.

I have carefully studied slow motion of Griffey, Pujols, Bonds, and a bunch of others.  Siggy had them on one site, but I have found some on Chris O'Leary's site (Bonds and Pujols).  Can't remember from where I downloaded Griffey.  Got some from Ernie Parker's sit that are still there of Bustos and Fernandez in '04 Olympics.

It will only be productive to discuss these things if we're all looking at the same video at the same time, and breaking down the same swings frame by frame and discussing the movements of each segment --

I've been working with some players over this past month, focusing on the the  front arm extending (almost barring straight) during the step and into toe touch.  There are 15-20 different other things about a swing that a person could focus on with hitters at any given time -- hip cock, scapula loading, the front arm barring I mentioned, the bat tipping, when the front hip opens, the sequencing of hip opening to shoulder turn, when the front leg locks out, how far the back elbow can collapse on GO and around the corner, the distance of the elbow from the torso during the swing, the distance of the hands from the torso during the swing, the hand path during the swing, etc. etc.

And none of that even gets into the mental aspect of hitting.  No wonder Tiger Woods has been working continuously on his golf swing since the '97 Masters.  There's a hundred things to keep track of.

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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #40 
I agree that a hitting instructor needs "work through their own issues". As for the MLB Swing is just another term that is thrown out to the masses (IMO). The "MLB Swing" makes one think that there is one specific set of mechanics that incorporates what this means. And it isn't true. There is a BIG difference between Manny, Albert, Big Papi, Alex Rodriguez, Bonds, Bustos, Jung, Rivera, & Mendoza. And lumping them all together and calling it the MLB swing because they are all great hitters is wrong.
This is where we will disagree. The MLB swing is a way of defining a higher level swing. I really dont want to get into this huge biomechanical debate because no matter the proof there will be someone to disagree. But all of these hitters do some of the very same things when hitting. I'm Not saying that they dont have certain qualities that make them different....but in the end when one considers the quality and consistency of their swings and what each one does that is similar thats where the sameness is........so to speak.
Jung doesnt have a stride, but she loads her hips and rotates around her front axis....ie: front hip and uses her hands as levers......which is done by maintaining the box.....
If you took each hitter and did them side by side on the same pitch and watched carefully you would see a very similar swing....
I dont see how you cant see this.....

 
Who is the definitive source that says what is or isn't biomechanically correct? Well with all due respect there are those in the field of biomechanics who study how the body moves during athletic movements. Correctness is defined by the ability to maximize ones movements efficiently and with consistency......These are those with whom I work with my friend. The field of biomechanics and the professionals with whom study this science are the most qualified ones to speak on this issue. Plus some others I can name with which I have seen and witnessed their expertise.....do you need names?
Pudge, do you feel you have a decent understanding of how MLB hitters swing the bat?....And, do you think it matters? I don't use the terms "MLB Swing", "baseball swing", or "softball swing". I believe you either have a good swing or a bad one. I believe every good swing has its "absolutes". I believe lumping all MLB hitters into the same mold is crazy. Most of them have the absolutes in their mechanics. But, most them arrive to the ball differently. There amazing athletic ability, talent, and many years of work help them overcome the "extras" in their mechanics.
Interesting comments pertaining to good swing or bad swing.....Please define what is a good swing and what is a bad swing. Granted a baseball or softball swing is one in the same. The pitches may come from differing release points, however the strike zone is supposed to be the same....Supposed to.....
When you state that they all have the same absolutes in their swing....I would like for you to please explain this as well....
Absolutes meaning that they all load the same way? They all rotate around their front hip?(Front Axis)...They all bring their arms(ie: box) around and not define using your hands in their teaching....another misnomer.....Hitters use their hands to hold the bat....The arms are in a box and are levers for the rotation where by they extend as the rotation reaches a certain point....
Is this what you mean?
No. My "absolutes" of hitting are pretty simple. I believe the hitter has to get their front foot down early enough for everything else to flow properly. Big issue here again is that you cant define exactly what a flow is in a swing....One can say that Griffeys swing is smooth.....Explain why its smooth in the terms of a biomechanist....or in laymens terms..Getting ones foot down will do nothing if they cant maintain their rotation around the front axis.....(Front Hip) and also maintain the position of their hands as levers and not disconnected.....
Now I will say a friend of mine who shall remain nameless said he has taught disconnecting the fastpitch hitters hands at times when the UMP is totally giving a strike Zone thats not relevant...
The smooth swing will do nothing either if the hitter cant maintain their posture according to the plane of the pitch. In other words their body must be lined up with the plane of the pitch to properly execute an efficient and successful swing...
Absolutes?
 
Second "absolute" is the player has limit the amount of distance the hands get away from the body. No real argument here if you can explain how to properly teach your hitters how not to disconnect their hands from their body.....ie: leaving the rotation of the box.....
Only times their hands should leave this position is when the rotation of the swing becomes so great that they are actually pulled away by the force of the rotation.....
Griffey has the sweetest looking swing of the 3 (IMO). He is vertical at the start, glides to the ball (in his stride). Griffey's arms nearly straighten out when his hands go back during his stride. As he is going to the ball, his hands come down, his arms remain nearly straight, and has a nice loop to the ball.. He has a loop in his swing. He approaches the ball from low to high.
Actually to be honest with you....I will disagree again. He doesnt loop his bat  in that he makes adjustments with his body to the plane of the pitch. If he actually had a big loop in his swing he wouldnt and couldnt hit consistently. I can document this on many occasions with young hitters. Athletic ability can only take someone so far and with what you describe as a biomechanical flaw...Griffey would never have the home runs or success he had......
 
Bonds swings low to high as well. But he leads with his Front elbow (which usually remains up, as his back elbow enters the slot. Bonds's hands are usually  Palm up/palm down near the center of his torso when he is making contact.
Personal feelings aside about Mr Bonds.....Biomechanically he has the most efficient and perfect swing. There is no extra movement which makes it almost impossible to beat him inside. Ask John Smoltz a few years back on a 97mph fastball that Bonds hit that never landed.... 

Pujols is a sweeper. He is flatter going through the zone. Much like Griffey Albert's hands get away from his body pretty early. He usually makes contact with his hands to the side of his Torso (think arm bar).
Again you cant see the big picture for the actual biomechanics of his swing. It doesnt matter if he starts his swing with a Chinese man hanging on his legs with two pots of Gold hanging from his biceps.....He still ends up the same way as the others....
By the way define sweeping swing....

Im hoping what your trying to say is that they may all start in differing locations in relation where the bat is......the bend in their legs....
But.....where you fall apart my friend is when you state they all arrive at the ball differently.....That is totally incorrect...Im sorry.....
Go watch videos of their swings..... If a hitter consistently swings flat, and another gets under the ball with a severe upper cut, is this not two different ways of getting to the ball? If one drops his hands everytime he swings and comes down and under the ball, while another goes from point a to contact in a straight line, that is two different ways of arriving at the ball, right?
No matter where they start their bats or anything...once the swing starts the consistency of the swing in relation to each other is the same.....There is no real difference in the swing.... Now you need to go back and watch some video. slow it down, frame by frame. Better yet, get a cprogram where you can compare them side by side. I did.
I want you to go to Steve Englishbeys Website and see the video analysis of these hitters plus the advanced biomechanical breakdown of these hitters.....

 

By the way Biomechanics and Physiology is my profession........I watch video all the time....Lets not make this too personal....




I believe I have a very good understanding of how to teach hitting. I am one of those fanatics that started studying the art at a really young age (I use to video tape great hitters when I was 7 or 8, and still have and use those tapes to show my players what we are trying to accomplish). As I said earlier, I think having the ability to  communicate your theories verbally and visually is what really
matters.
Using video tapes of hitters is a very good tool for teaching. In fact Steve Englishbey is one of the better teachers of hitting out of Houston and he supports this idea.....
BTW: Before the Major League Snooty People found out a website named Siggys had some wonderful comparisons of peoples swings....
 
Compare Kirsten Rivera to Pujols or Manny.......
Looks very similar.... Looks similar. But, not the same!
Again you cant see the car for the trees in the front yard....
 
Check this URL out and see if these hitters dont look similar.....
HMMMMM me thinks yes....
 
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=qie75kdnm2.penguin_s?p=5&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Another one....
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=13&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

How about another?
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=11&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9


Rivera Different? HMMMMMM I think not...
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9






 

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
BlueDog.....With all due respect I wasnt going to engage you in this conversation but the more I thought about it I just had to say something.....
Your Blue Highlights and discussions on hitting has some merits but some very obvious flaws as well......

Rocklifter, those weren't my comments....
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Using video tapes of hitters is a very good tool for teaching. In fact Steve Englishbey is one of the better teachers of hitting out of Houston and he supports this idea.....
 

Rocklifter, since you do wish to engage in a hitting discussion, I will oblige you.....

I would be careful with both of your statements......

Video is useful if it's used in the right way.......Side-by-side comparisons of an amateur hitter against a MLB hitter is not the way to use video, IMO......In fact, I would even say it is detrimental as a teaching tool.......

Now, you mentioned Steve.....I would say that if someone is gonna take a look at his material to look at Yeagers' material, also.....There are differences.....Major ones....

Good reading on this very subject....Keep in mind, Hiddengem actually plays on the Kansas City Royals AAA club........

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78819

 

tomg

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Reply with quote  #43 
Gee, BD, I tried to follow that link and it said it was no longer valid, maybe I should contact the administrator.

That's odd isn't it ?
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #44 

I am extremely careful with my statements pertaining to hitting because I know like belly buttons everyone has one. Some are just better looking and more presentable than others.....

Let me add that I dont feel there is any reason why a hitter shouldnt compare themselves to "Elite" Level hitters....(Changed to Elite since some have issues with the whole MLB thing...)
Why not show them what they should strive for and see what the Elite hitter does and how they move their body in accordance with the swing....
This makes sense....

I have looked at Yeagers Material and I choose not to use it for one of many reasons.....Biomechanically it doesnt make sense.....
One has to learn how to move their body to become an efficient hitter....

BTW: The ULL Coach invited Englishbey out to help his team a few years back with very good results...Do they agree on everything? Probably not...but Lotief and Englishbey are doing something right and can prove their work with the results on the field.
 Side note: My daughter and I had an unofficial at ULL and so I know exactly what Coach L is all about when it comes to hitting and their expectations and approach to hitting....I would bet you they use more video tape than they used on a movie set and they hit more than any other school......

My personal opinion...


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TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #45 
Advise to all those that want to know how to hit better :
Read the book " Between The Lines " The mental Skills of Hitting for softball.

Pudge

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter

I am extremely careful with my statements pertaining to hitting because I know like belly buttons everyone has one. Some are just better looking and more presentable than others.....

Let me add that I dont feel there is any reason why a hitter shouldnt compare themselves to "Elite" Level hitters....(Changed to Elite since some have issues with the whole MLB thing...)
Why not show them what they should strive for and see what the Elite hitter does and how they move their body in accordance with the swing....
This makes sense....

I have looked at Yeagers Material and I choose not to use it for one of many reasons.....Biomechanically it doesnt make sense.....
One has to learn how to move their body to become an efficient hitter....

BTW: The ULL Coach invited Englishbey out to help his team a few years back with very good results...Do they agree on everything? Probably not...but Lotief and Englishbey are doing something right and can prove their work with the results on the field.
 Side note: My daughter and I had an unofficial at ULL and so I know exactly what Coach L is all about when it comes to hitting and their expectations and approach to hitting....I would bet you they use more video tape than they used on a movie set and they hit more than any other school......

My personal opinion...

OK. So are you telling us that the ULL concepts for hitting are what you agree with? Are "elite' level swings? Biomechanically correct?


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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
 
Compare Kirsten Rivera to Pujols or Manny.......
Looks very similar.... Looks similar. But, not the same!
Again you cant see the car for the trees in the front yard....
 
Check this URL out and see if these hitters dont look similar..... Hmmmm me thinks you can't read!
HMMMMM me thinks yes....
 
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=qie75kdnm2.penguin_s?p=5&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Another one....
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=13&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

How about another?
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=11&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Rivera Different? HMMMMMM I think not...
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9






 

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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #48 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Again you cant see the car for the trees in the front yard....
 
Check this URL out and see if these hitters dont look similar.....
HMMMMM me thinks yes....
 
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=qie75kdnm2.penguin_s?p=5&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Another one....
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=13&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

How about another?
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=11&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Rivera Different? HMMMMMM I think not...
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic?p=4&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
 

And this is what I am talking about when I say people see one thing but say another. Look at your "examples" again. In video 2 you have Ortiz swinging with what I believe you call the "box". Yet, in clip 1, you have 3 of 4 examples of hitters who can't create that box because their hands and arms have extended out over the plate! There "box" is actually a triangle! Like I said, DIFFERENT! Now Rivera, she has the "box". All of them have (I guess) "elite swings". Though they all do not get to the ball the same. Some are in a "box", and others are in a triangle.


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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #49 
Pudge,
   I ask that you dont get too upset at my statements. If my words or thoughts make you feel bad towards me I do apologize.
I can read and was trying to show you that many of these hitters are using the same if not close to the same hitting mechanics....
Body movement during the swing is where I am trying to make my points. If I am not clear please ask a question or two. If I am unclear on any of your questions I will consult with my friends who have helped me in this area.
I am working in Biomechanics but not in the field of hitting or pitching. My studies surround relevant body movements during football for differing positions. (Kickers, Tackling, Body adjustments to equipment being worn), and my favorite Track and Field Throwers. Competitive Weightlifters.....

As far as what ULL teaches...yes I like his approach. After my conversations with a certain person on here I have gotten a better appreciation for another school out West....

One is never to old to learn and to adjust their thoughts about things in life and academia......

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tomg

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Reply with quote  #50 
rocklifter -

The person in fastpitch I have discussed the swing with the most is Lotief. I am convinced he has the best understanding of the swing in fastpitch.

I like his eclectic aproach where he borrowws what is best to make the hitter better from many sources.

I also like Candrea and Enquist's attempts to emulate MLB and implement Slaught's ideas, but I think they are not as good as Lotief.

The biggest problem with their apporach in my opinion is that they think the key to being short to/long through the zone is a bat trajectory that sacrifices acceleration and increases timing error too much as opposed to the Ted Williams concept of adjusting an impact zone to match the pitch so you minimize the chance of being too early or too late.

The primary focus (given that tradeoffs must be made between optimal spatial vs timing  adjustment) needs to be on lowering timing error of contact, not on increasing time bat is in zone.

bluedog is also very familiar with Coach Lotief's work I think.
DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #51 
You are correct Pudge.  I noticed this about three years ago when I started carefully studying slow motion swings.  The response I got at that time was that this "box" is not exactly a box, and that its shape changes from really boxy on an inside pitch, to kind of boxy on a middle pitch, and more like a triangle on an outside pitch.  The term is especially misleading regarding the position of the front arm at GO, which in my opinion needs to be almost barred straight with little play when the front shoulder starts its turn.

The reason the term box is used (my opinion) is to describe the relationship of the front and back elbows.  Very poor arm swings, or sometimes with slappers, the rear elbow collapses toward the front elbow so that the two arrms almost act as one, and PULL and CHOP the bat through the zone.  This is the way more than 75% of youth hitters learn to hit.

The concept of a "box" helps these elbows-together pull/chop youth hitters visualize a shape where the elbows are kept far apart, with front arm forcefully pulling the bat by virtue of that front arm being pulled by the front shoulder, which is connected to/being pulled by the rotation of the torso, which is connected to/being pulled by the rotation of the hips.   The back arm then doesn't do that much other than to rigidly hold on to the bat, and by virtue of being connected to the back shoulder, "push" (I know that is the wrong word) the pat and stabilize its path through the contact zone.   The "box" shape (or elbow separation) after contact of course completely collapses..

Anyway, all that to say I agree it is not really a box.  I wrote once it might be more helpful to simply describe the orientation of the elbows in relation to each other, but as you say, it is very hard to describe in words what we see in a swing -- that is what we mean in describing 3 dimensional shapes.

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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #52 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Pudge,
   I ask that you dont get too upset at my statements. If my words or thoughts make you feel bad towards me I do apologize.
I can read and was trying to show you that many of these hitters are using the same if not close to the same hitting mechanics....
Body movement during the swing is where I am trying to make my points. If I am not clear please ask a question or two. If I am unclear on any of your questions I will consult with my friends who have helped me in this area.
I am working in Biomechanics but not in the field of hitting or pitching. My studies surround relevant body movements during football for differing positions. (Kickers, Tackling, Body adjustments to equipment being worn), and my favorite Track and Field Throwers. Competitive Weightlifters.....

As far as what ULL teaches...yes I like his approach. After my conversations with a certain person on here I have gotten a better appreciation for another school out West....

One is never to old to learn and to adjust their thoughts about things in life and academia......

Oh, I am not getting upset!  I had to point out you were arguing with me on a point that we both said the same thing.

Now, I will never stop trying to learn. Ask PD, I am trying to get a longer sit down with his DD. Having talked with her briefly, there is a mind I want to pick. That young lady has some things that I believe would help me in my teachings.

The ULL style of hitting has intrigued me for years. When Coach Lotief added the split grip, he gave me another thing to wonder about. I hope I can find time out on the road to ask him some questions about it. There is another mind I would love to pick.

Biomechanic study is great. But, (and I don't have the expertise in it like you might), I wonder if the biomechanics of a player that is 6'3" means the same should be for one that is 5'4". Does the body type (size, build, length of levers, etc) determine the right biomechanics? Or, is it the same for everyone? Once again, I don't know. But, it was something I was thinking after I read your post last night.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #53 
Truthfully I love to read you guys talking about hitting. It reminds me of the many hours I've spent in parking lots after games talking about pitching. Just really great stuff. Love it !!!
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Reply with quote  #54 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer
Advise to all those that want to know how to hit better :
Read the book " Between The Lines " The mental Skills of Hitting for softball.

Hammer, it is a nice little book. I wouldn't necessarily agree that it is a good read for hitting coaches. But, it is a good read for young players to see what the college kids are thinking. When it comes to mechanics, and fixing things, I would warn against it.


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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #55 

And this is what I am talking about when I say people see one thing but say another. Look at your "examples" again. In video 2 you have Ortiz swinging with what I believe you call the "box". Yet, in clip 1, you have 3 of 4 examples of hitters who can't create that box because their hands and arms have extended out over the plate! There "box" is actually a triangle! Like I said, DIFFERENT! Now Rivera, she has the "box". All of them have (I guess) "elite swings". Though they all do not get to the ball the same. Some are in a "box", and others are in a triangle.

I think what you see here pertaining to the box or triangle is the position of the pitch vs point of contact. As in physics once an object reaches a certain speed objects will be naturally pulled away from the center of the rotation....
Its natural for a hitter to maintain the box on an inside pitch more so than a middle or away pitch.....Rivera is swinging at an inside pitch and adjusts more in towards her body to make contact which couldnt be accomplished without the box...
 
Your question about height and body type determine the right mechanics.....
That of course is a very good question......
In my opinion somethings would come into play with regards to height, lever length but not all.....
When I played Mens Major Slowpitch for example. Most of the better hitters that could hit the ball a long long way were tall and had very long arms/levers. The levers helped garner better leverage to get the ball up...Not scientific but I have witnessed it enough to verify it. Now Im not that tall. Being only 6'2"...I had to rely on more strength and bat speed to help my hitting. I dont think it plays into baseball as much but it cant hurt either.
 
Heres a link of Adam Dunn who is by no means a short man.....When he swings at a strike even of medium height it looks like he has an upper cut when in actuality he is making a postural adjustment on the pitch....(adjusting to the flight plane of the pitch).
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=4&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Ortiz is the same way....He is very big and tall so his adjustments look more exagerrated than someone shorter like Sheffield...
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=1&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Sheffield makes up for his lack of height and lever length with sheer power and ferocity......

So to answer your question.....Body height and size can make some difference in the swing...However with the right mechanics and other factors a average sized person can hit the ball a long way as well.....
Look at Mark McGwire....Hit the ball a long way.....(Steroids or not..)
Sosa is shorter and yet in the Home run Derby hit one over 500'.
Good mechanics...
 
The split grip Coach Lotief has started using has a little more than intrigued me. I remember seeing some of the older players in baseball using it many many years ago. I would like to know the thought behind its use.....
Anyone have any ideas on this?
 

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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #56 
One of my favorite books pertaining to baseball is the Mental Game of baseball. Not necessarily a hitting book per se, but addresses many issues with hitting and the whole mental approach to the game....
 


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tomg

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Reply with quote  #57 
In addition to split grip, a number of Lotief's hitters were using the very open stance this year.

The split grip enhances the torquing of the handle. So does the high back elbow and elbows far apart (goes along with more choked grip as opposed to doorknocker lined up grip which forces keeping elbows close) as the bat cocks and uncocks/early in the swing.

As far as later box vs triangle/etc., I think the best way to explain the surface appearance of the arms and their sequencing is to understand the underlying physical mechanics that are at work as the swing progresses.

The same underlying mechanical model applies to both golf and hitting. The simplest adequate empirical model is as described by the author of PHYSICS OF GOLF, the late Theodore Jorgensen, and involves torso (upper spinal axis) torque, forward momentum of the body and handle torque, see:

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swing1.php?ref=

where this golf club designer, Tutelman, summarizes the model.



The best mechanical model description in hitting in my opinion is Mankin who explains how the handle torque and torso torque mechanics blend differently depending on how you adjust for in vs out and up vs down. Mankin does not explain how/why the forward momentum of the body is used which is the most complex (more BIO than mechanical) and poorly understood of the mechanical factors.

The longer the swing radius, the faster the connected bat sucks momentum out of the torso and the less it turns. To avoid drag, this requires more torquing of the handle early to swing the bat out quickly while the torso rotates less, see:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/209154.html

Mankin:

"Keep in mind that the farther outside and lower the pitch, the less the shoulders can rotate and the more the back-arm must extend to make solid contact. However, batters whose mechanics generate great early rearward bat acceleration from applying THT do not need as much BHT approaching contact on outside pitches to generate equal bat speeds.

"In other words, by applying more torque (THT) earlier in the swing combined with a wider hand-path, a batter can generate as much bat speed as a batter with a tighter hand-path and applying more BHT from greater shoulder rotation.

"Some might think that the tighter the hands are kept to the body, the greater the bat speed achieved. That is seldom the case. A slower but wider CHP can generate more bat speed from the pendulum effect than a tighter faster CHP. However, a wider hand-path offers less leverage to apply torque and therefore the bat speeds attained are about equal for batters with high level mechanics.

"Note: Most of Sosa’s and Big Mac’s 500+ foot shots were on pitches away (wider hand-paths). -- For a given angular displacement rate of the hand-path, the wider the path, the greater the bat speed induced from the pendulum effect. – This may sound like “information overload” to some but the point is highly important for motion analysis studies."

Jack Mankin
Sftblchick

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Reply with quote  #58 
rocklifter,

I couldn't agree with you anymore!  The Mental Game of Baseball is an AWESOME book--and so are the people who wrote it!
TheHammer

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Reply with quote  #59 
Pudge as the title says Mental skills, and not Mechanics.
It is good for young players and makes them mentally prepared for the higher level games.This books does not teach you how to hit, it only prepares you.
uscguru

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Reply with quote  #60 
Ask Coach Myers, KB, KC or most of the ASU team why they did so well and the answer will be............



http://www.mentalfundamentals.com

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