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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #1 
After watching Arizona State dominate the Series, it's obvious that their hitting was the difference.........

They hit every pitcher they faced........And, they hit with power.......

No other team could match their hitting.......Not even close......

Not enough focus is placed on hitting instruction in softball, IMO......Hitting needs to improve.....

Take a lesson from this Arizona State team and put more focus on learning how to hit.........Parents should get involved as well as Coaches, IMO.........


JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #2 
bluedog - I appreciate your rather narrow perspective on the game, but evidently you missed the terrific performances by the pitchers, especially Burkhart and Tincher. It's still a team game (just ask Tincher) but pitching is the key. Hitting is the element necessary to separate two good teams with excellent pitching.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #3 
As I look back, the real glory of the game from my perspective as a pitcher was that there was a guy who said "I could hit you any time" and I didn't believe him, so I would say "Get a bat and let's see". That's why I never really enjoyed golf - nobody was guarding the pin.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
WanabeHorsey

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDad

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
As I look back, the real glory of the game from my perspective as a pitcher was that there was a guy who said "I could hit you any time" and I didn't believe him, so I would say "Get a bat and let's see". That's why I never really enjoyed golf - nobody was guarding the pin.

Frank - Ar least you get it!



Mother Nature can be a formidable opponent.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #5 

Joisey, just for the record.......I can hit you any time!

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #6 
bluedog - Sure, I'm 75 years old with bad knees now and haven't thrown a ball in anger for 23 years.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #7 
bluedog and Wanabe - I love that old story about Ty Cobb. When he was asked what he thought he would hit with today's middle relievers and finishers pitching, he said "Probably about .380". Since he had hit .400, the reporter asked him why the drop in average, and Cobb answered " Because I'm 81 now". Go gettum silver foxes !!!!!
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
.......and haven't thrown a ball in anger for 23 years.

Joisey, if there was only one thing I could say to a hitter, it would be to get very, very angry, then get in the box.......Funny how vengefulness can clear the mind......It's an emotion full of calmness and purpose aiming for a very clear and meaningful result.....
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #9 
bluedog - I used to try to explain the pitcher's controlled adrenalin frenzy to females by telling them it was like being in a fistfight. Then I realized that 99% of them had never been in a fistfight. It's like a controlled anger, no doubt.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
After watching Arizona State dominate the Series, it's obvious that their hitting was the difference......... I hope you mean the Championship Finals!

They hit every pitcher they faced........And, they hit with power....... Until the Championship Finals, they had ONE HR. So this is not true. The teams they played up until the last game had more extra base hits against ASU, than the Devils hit.

No other team could match their hitting.......Not even close...... See above comment. Then check your WCWS stats. You are wrong again.

Not enough focus is placed on hitting instruction in softball, IMO......Hitting needs to improve..... I believe there is PLENTY of hitting instruction going on. What is being taught in most places is wrong. That, and some players spend more time on their craft beyond the 20 hours a week.

Take a lesson from this Arizona State team and put more focus on learning how to hit.........Parents should get involved as well as Coaches, IMO.........

I loved their hitting during the regular season, the final game, and Donnenwirth vs TX A&M in Game 1. But, they were not that impressive in OKC at the plate.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #11 
05/29/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
05/30/08vs. UCLA TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 4-0
06/01/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
06/02/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-0
06/03/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 11-0


I count a total of 24 runs in five games.....Somebody did some hitting when it mattered.......Throw out the last game and it's 13-2.......Pick any two games and it's at least 6-2......Now, I think it's fair to say this is domination.........

Quote:
But, they were not that impressive in OKC at the plate.


Pudge, I bet there are three Coaches and some really good pitchers who disagree with you.....Well, add one more Coach and pitcher... 
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
05/29/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
05/30/08vs. UCLA TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 4-0
06/01/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
06/02/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-0
06/03/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 11-0


I count a total of 24 runs in five games.....Somebody did some hitting when it mattered.......Throw out the last game and it's 13-2.......Pick any two games and it's at least 6-2......Now, I think it's fair to say this is domination.........

Quote:
But, they were not that impressive in OKC at the plate.


Pudge, I bet there are three Coaches and some really good pitchers who disagree with you.....Well, add one more Coach and pitcher... 

Next time don't manipulate the stats. Show everything so the entire story can be seen.

How many of those runs cam from great hitting? Walks? Errors? Umpire error?

Impressive? Not until Game 2 of the finals. It is hard to be impressive when you average 3 hits a game before the finals, and your opponents are getting more extra base hits than you are. Game 1 of the finals showed what was to come in game two. But two days of hitting does not cover up the sub standard hitting going on the first 3 games. 

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Next time don't manipulate the stats. Show everything so the entire story can be seen.

How many of those runs cam from great hitting? Walks? Errors? Umpire error?

Pudge, the only manipulating going on is in your mind, IMO........

Errors were AZ . ST. ( 2 ) and the other three teams a total of (4).....

Hit production was AZ. ST. (26) and the other three teams a total of (15).......

Walks?.....A few intentional to keep the ball in the yard.....

I won't even mention that one team hit a few homeruns (is four more than a few?) and the other three teams combined didn't.....

Now, I will grant you that if they would have pitched to Katie Cochran every time, it would have been an even more one-sided Series.......

Umpire error?.......Pudge, you gotta be kidding.....

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #14 
Pudge, I understand you are a softball Coach....Correct me if I'm wrong on that.....

Now, I'm on the record saying most softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of how MLB hitters swing a bat.....You know, it would help them to understand the swing and be able to teach it alot better........

Pudge, do you feel you have a decent understanding of how MLB hitters swing the bat?....And, do you think it matters?
shortgamercoach

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Reply with quote  #15 

Thank God for Burkhardt, thank God for Burkhardt. After watching this team all year long she really stepped up and maintained her strong pitching thru-out the cws. Because of the weakest schedule in the nation,we were use to seeing a lot of hitting from this team all year long. But we started to see a slowing down once regionals started. The 4 main power hitters were getting shut down,one, no fault of her own. But everybody else stepped up and came thru. That's what made this a great team effort and a great season. The hitting did slow down, but again we were suckered in to expect more because of the weak schedule, and also the Pac-10 pitching was average this year. IMO

rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #16 
Let me narrow this down very quickly. Fastpitch hitting has been overlooked for many years. I could say that because of the old mentality that Girls cant do this and that.
Then here we are with websites and instructors proclaiming that Female hitters should hit the same way as men do in baseball. There is no difference.
This is very true. Take Proud Dad and His wonderful daughter for example. Ask her who her favorite hitter is and who she worked on hitting like? Baseball player......Look at Kristen Riveria......and on down the list.
The best hitters in the fastpitch game are the ones using the same type of mechanics used in baseball.
Sadly the prevailing sentiment isnt in line with this thinking. This is unfortunate. Frank my friend I will tell you right now....if there were more hitters with better instruction and better mechanics the pitchers wouldnt have the same dominance as they do now. Yes a good pitcher would have their day, but not as much.
Additionally if more work was done with the Umpires pertaining to the correct area of the strike zone it might help as well.
Last time I checked a ball in the batters box doesnt equate to a strike. Heck Greg Maddox doesnt get that much room for a strike.

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gomrpi

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
bluedog - I appreciate your rather narrow perspective on the game, but evidently you missed the terrific performances by the pitchers, especially Burkhart and Tincher. It's still a team game (just ask Tincher) but pitching is the key. Hitting is the element necessary to separate two good teams with excellent pitching.


Frank it is all perspective...  that may have been the way it was in the day...

I think Pitching is the element necessary to separate two good teams with excellent hitting.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #18 
gompi - I'll get back to you in about three weeks when I figure out the difference between what you said and what I said. Until then I shall mull it over.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #19 

Man I must me slipping. Frank didnt even answer me......HA HA HA


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gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #20 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Let me narrow this down very quickly. Fastpitch hitting has been overlooked for many years. I could say that because of the old mentality that Girls cant do this and that.
Then here we are with websites and instructors proclaiming that Female hitters should hit the same way as men do in baseball. There is no difference.
This is very true. Take Proud Dad and His wonderful daughter for example. Ask her who her favorite hitter is and who she worked on hitting like? Baseball player......Look at Kristen Riveria......and on down the list.
The best hitters in the fastpitch game are the ones using the same type of mechanics used in baseball.
Sadly the prevailing sentiment isnt in line with this thinking. This is unfortunate. Frank my friend I will tell you right now....if there were more hitters with better instruction and better mechanics the pitchers wouldnt have the same dominance as they do now. Yes a good pitcher would have their day, but not as much.
Additionally if more work was done with the Umpires pertaining to the correct area of the strike zone it might help as well.
Last time I checked a ball in the batters box doesnt equate to a strike. Heck Greg Maddox doesnt get that much room for a strike.


Thank you.

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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog

Quote:
Next time don't manipulate the stats. Show everything so the entire story can be seen.

How many of those runs cam from great hitting? Walks? Errors? Umpire error?

Pudge, the only manipulating going on is in your mind, IMO........

Errors were AZ . ST. ( 2 ) and the other three teams a total of (4).....

Hit production was AZ. ST. (26) and the other three teams a total of (15).......

Walks?.....A few intentional to keep the ball in the yard.....

I won't even mention that one team hit a few homeruns (is four more than a few?) and the other three teams combined didn't.....

Now, I will grant you that if they would have pitched to Katie Cochran every time, it would have been an even more one-sided Series.......

Umpire error?.......Pudge, you gotta be kidding.....

Had one of the best views in the house on this one! FOUL BALL!


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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudge
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
05/29/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
05/30/08vs. UCLA TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 4-0
06/01/08vs. Alabama TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-1
06/02/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 3-0
06/03/08vs. Texas A&M TVOklahoma City, Okla.W, 11-0


I count a total of 24 runs in five games.....Somebody did some hitting when it mattered.......Throw out the last game and it's 13-2.......Pick any two games and it's at least 6-2......Now, I think it's fair to say this is domination.........

Quote:
But, they were not that impressive in OKC at the plate.


Pudge, I bet there are three Coaches and some really good pitchers who disagree with you.....Well, add one more Coach and pitcher... 

Next time don't manipulate the stats. Show everything so the entire story can be seen.

How many of those runs cam from great hitting? Walks? Errors? Umpire error?

Impressive? Not until Game 2 of the finals. It is hard to be impressive when you average 3 hits a game before the finals, and your opponents are getting more extra base hits than you are. Game 1 of the finals showed what was to come in game two. But two days of hitting does not cover up the sub standard hitting going on the first 3 games. 

Ok Pudge. Game 1 ASU vs Bama.
  • Hits - ASU 4 Bama 3
  • BB's - ASU 8 Bama 6
  • HBP - ASU 3 Bama 0
  • Runs- ASU 3 Bama 1
  • Extra Base Hits ASU 1 - Bama 3 all doubles
  • LOB ASU 12 Bama 8

ASU had 15 base runners and scored 3. Bama had 9 scored 1. Say what ever you want about umpiring but the tying runs scores on an undisputed hit. You say how long would the game have gone on without the "umpire call". Well ASU had runners on in every inning versus Bama in four innings and none in the last two innings. Bama scores their "disputed run" with a base runner who was struck out. A ball hit her bat for strike two and the umpire did not call it.You never speak of that. Bama pitched around ASU hitters all night by walking 8 with 3 intentional! They hit 3 batters! ASU had runners in scoring position 5 innings versus Bama's four. Bama had RISP only once after the 3rd inning and that was the "disputed" runner! ASU was hitting the ball hard in the seventh but you don't mention that. The "disputed" hit was hit hard as was Muenz's foul ball that hit the wall less than a foot foul. Rodgers smoked a double to score the "Intentionally walked" runner to tie the game. Three hard hit balls in a row yet Bama's last six batters were four strike outs and two pop ups! You don't mention that! The fact is Burkart faced 9 batters over the minimum for the game. Dunne faced 15 over. Dunne pitched around hitters all night and got out of it until the seventh. ASU had RISP the last four innings. It was only a matter of time for ASU. 

Game two with UCLA. UCLA played badly, had half the base runners and did not score. You don't score you don't win. ASU executed and took advantage of the walks AGAIN.

Game three. Close game without disputed calls. Control by Dunne caused this loss again. Two hit batters and a home run. So much for the extra base hits. Home runs trump doubles.After Bama scores a run the last 4 innings Burkhart faces 13 batters and the only runner is a walk!  LOB ASU 1 LOB Bama 3. Scorboard!

Game four. You don't score you don't win. Again look at the extra base hits and the execution by ASU.

Game five. 11 Runs. Opponent 0 for Both Games! DOMINATION.

The facts are ASU pitching was superior. ASU execution was superior. Opponents intentional walks scored half the time. Not only does ASU do enough to win but the PITCHING dominates to allow 2 runs in 5 games. They OUTSCORE their opponents 24-2! A&M never scored so you cannot say they were in the game. Gibson kept it close but the facts are ASU scored 14 runs to A&M's zero. ASU left 10 runners on and A&M 8. ASU k'd 6 times and A&M 24! Seems pretty one sided to me.

Once again PD you are changing what we are discussing. The conversation is about the phrase "dominate the series", :They hit every pitcher they faced........And, they hit with power....... & No other team could match their hitting."

Every single one of these quotes is inaccurate! ASU did NOT "dominate" the series. They dominated TX A&M in game two. But, the entire series? HECK no! They played well enough to win. They had clutch hits (and help), when they needed. They are the national champs.

I have never disputed that. My problem withthis is the word usage.

Now, did ASU hit a few HR's? Sure. Were they the most powerful hitting team, based off of their performance in OKC? NO!. No other team could match their hitting? It took game 2 of the championship finals to get ASU in the top hitting stats categories at  the World Series. In the end they still weren't the best hitting team their (I know, I know, but they were the best team, but not what we are talking about!).



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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #23 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Pudge, I understand you are a softball Coach....Correct me if I'm wrong on that..... You are correct!

Now, I'm on the record saying most softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of how MLB hitters swing a bat.....You know, it would help them to understand the swing and be able to teach it alot better........ Softball Coaches would benefit from a better understanding of knowing what they are teaching hitters PERIOD. I have had the benefit of attending many different coaches practices at all levels. I have enjoyed many long conversations about hitting with many different hitting coaches. The one thing that I have learned is a lot of coaches say one thing (use terms and language) when they are talking hitting, but teach something completely different than what they are saying. An understanding of the "MLB swing" (which in itself is an interesting term to me) really won't benefit coaches too much. I have an understanding of Biology. I sure as heck can't teach it! I am a big believer that you have to immerse yourself completely into hitting. Study it. Talk it. Try it. Break it down. Spend MANY hours learning, seeing, and TALKING about the skill. I emphasize talking because if you can't talk about hitting, I don't believe you can teach it. Communicating your theories to the players is HUGE! I know hitting coaches who can't sit down and explain what they teach. So, how can their players learn it? I believe you should be able to demonstrate what you teach. Players learn in different ways. Hearing works from some. Seeing works for others. Some need both. 

Pudge, do you feel you have a decent understanding of how MLB hitters swing the bat?....And, do you think it matters? I don't use the terms "MLB Swing", "baseball swing", or "softball swing". I believe you either have a good swing or a bad one. I believe every good swing has its "absolutes". I believe lumping all MLB hitters into the same mold is crazy. Most of them have the absolutes in their mechanics. But, most them arrive to the ball differently. There amazing athletic ability, talent, and many years of work help them overcome the "extras" in their mechanics.

I believe I have a very good understanding of how to teach hitting. I am one of those fanatics that started studying the art at a really young age (I use to video tape great hitters when I was 7 or 8, and still have and use those tapes to show my players what we are trying to accomplish). As I said earlier, I think having the ability to  communicate your theories verbally and visually is what really matters.


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Sftblchick

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Reply with quote  #24 
Pudge,

Do you think ASU wasn't the best hitting team because of their SOS or just because you feel another team is better--like Florida or Alabama?  If that's the case then please tell me how you think this is true (just talking hitting, of course)?
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #25 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sftblchick
Pudge,

Do you think ASU wasn't the best hitting team becaue of their SOS or just because you feel another team is better--like Florida or Alabama?  If that's the case then please tell me how you think this is true (just talking hitting, of course)?


If we are talking about the teams in OKC: Over-all I like a few of ASU's hitters. Obviously, I am a big fan of Cochran. I can't wait to see Donnenwirth's progression. I enjoyed Cowles. I think Alabama is solid 1-9. There kids have great approaches at the plate. Florida has some solid sticks in their line up. Not quite as deep as Alabama, or as dangerous as ASU's 3. But, they will battle at the plate. ULL's hitters are interesting. I would take Tankersly in a heart beat (who wouldn't?). I like what I saw out of Soto. I believe they have a couple of other hitters in their line up that will be good after a little more time in Mike Lotief's system. Texas A&M had Gipson, Villareal, and Kleising that I like. After that (IMO) they were a little weaker than the others. After Leles, and Lastrapes, Arizona's hitters don't have the intimidator look to them like past UA teams. Although, Chambers may figure things out to become that type of hitter. UCLA has Kemakona (sp) who I like a lot. Lagenfeld is solid at times. But, their line up doesn't really impress me. Virginia Tech needs help.

I don't think ASU's strength of schedule is a factor in their hitting. The only thing that it affected was their seeding. I don't think SOS hurt ULL. And I am sure they play a weaker schedule than ASU. I am of the opinion that you can either hit or you can't. ASU saw enough quality pitching to prove who can hit for them and who can't. I feel that ASU, Alabama, and Florida all had realitively equal line ups talent wise. The winner in OKC was decided more by clutch hits, and taking advantage of the breaks given, than superior talent.

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Pudge

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Reply with quote  #26 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDad
Well unlike the umpire Pudge I have had the benefit of High Definition TV replays on the batted ball in question. First I know where you were sitting and you were at least one hundred feet from that ball and Montalvo's glove. The umpire had a better view then you. Second Coach Myers said and he was asked later if he really heard the ball hit the glove and he said yes. Third I believe it is clear when you watch it frame by frame you can see the ball slightly deflect from her glove. When they show the angle behind the fielder this is apparent to me that the ball changes it's path. Where this happens the fielder is clearly still in fair territory. FAIR BALL!
 
In my opinion you can see the reaction of the fielder and Coach Myers to tell that the ball was tipped. Will we ever know for an absolute certainty? Possibly if technology continues to improve.

Do you really think Myers was going to say it wasn't touched??? Just like Montalvo said she DIDN'T touch it, you can't believe either one of them.

You can watch the replay (as I have), and I saw it live, the umpire didn't instantly call it fair. She  (IMO) called it fair based on Myers waiving around his runners (he sold that one well!). I am not going to argue touched or not (I don't know). I will say if it was touched, Montalvo was still in FOUL territory with her glove. The ball was in foul territory. It was FOUL. But, called fair. Bad calls happen in sports. Like last nights basketball game. Kobe fouled Pierce on that strip of the ball. It wasn't called. The Lakers won. 

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Wolfpackfan

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Reply with quote  #27 

I Could Listen To You Two ALL Day!!!!1


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DunninLA

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Reply with quote  #28 

Well written, PD!


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Sftblchick

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Reply with quote  #29 
Pudge,

Thanks Pudge for clearing that up!  Now you and PD need to battle it out to the end. . .I wonder who will prevail?!?!
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Now, did ASU hit a few HR's? Sure. Were they the most powerful hitting team, based off of their performance in OKC? NO!.


24 - 2 (runs)....26 - 15 (hits)........4 (homeruns)...(0) other three teams....Clutch hits?...I would say there's a few in there somewhere...

ProudDad, I wouldn't choose Pudge to defend me in court.....



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