Ultimate College Softball
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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #151 

Quote:
there are many ways to execute the swing with at or near the same consistency. 

Sure, if the goal is mediocrity at the plate......Which is the norm for most all softball programs....

Quote:
There are many ways to teach hitting

Sure are....And, most of them are utilized in softball....The result is, poor execution at the plate for most programs....

Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........

The reason is, hitting instruction in softball at all levels is mostly poor.......There are a few programs in softball that are the exception....But, only a few.......

Mark

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Reply with quote  #152 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog

Quote:
there are many ways to execute the swing with at or near the same consistency. 

Sure, if the goal is mediocrity at the plate......Which is the norm for most all softball programs....

Quote:
There are many ways to teach hitting

Sure are....And, most of them are utilized in softball....The result is, poor execution at the plate for most programs....

Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........

The reason is, hitting instruction in softball at all levels is mostly poor.......There are a few programs in softball that are the exception....But, only a few.......

Have to agree with Bluedog on this post. Here's some I like. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=7yxsp1f2p2.buffalo_s

Mark

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Reply with quote  #153 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge
A 700mph pitch released from a cannon situated at 360 feet would allow the exact same release time, but would be impossible to see, much less hit. 
Scott

I suggest calling for a bunt in that situation.

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #154 
WOW! Have followed this entire thread with "much" interest, but "weak" understanding, BUT have been fascinated AND impressed with the knowledge of so many of the posters. 

Think I've said it before, but I'm "just" a fan that loves fast pitch and all baseball, with not a great deal of "technical" expertise.  Have coached a bit of BB (and played a bunch - presently involved in a great "60 & over baseball league" in Tucson), watched a "ton" of both sports, and have honestly learned more on the detail of the technique if the art of hitting "any" spearoid, in this thread, than at any other time in my close association with both sports.

It has been so much fun to follow all the back-and-forth, arguments, detail, and even some "high quality" BS.  Have also often wanted to interject a comment or two, but "knew" I was out of my league, so for "all's" benefit, backed off. 

Just greatful that so many of you know (OR, think you know) so much of the technical detail, and are maintaining this and other FP threads during the off-season.

From a fanatical U of Arizona sports (most) fan, KEEP IT UP until next season!  
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #155 

Could only come from PD!

Mark

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Reply with quote  #156 

Quote:
Originally Posted by indyrun
 presently involved in a great "60 & over baseball league" in Tucson), 

THAT is awesome.

bluedog

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Reply with quote  #157 
Indyrun, make sure and turn up the sound....



If anyone believes MLB hitters don't have far superior swings, then, put one of these pieces of lumber in your hands and swing at a 90 MPH fastball.......

Swing at anything, for that matter.....Then, see how your wrists feel....






gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #158 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog

Quote:
there are many ways to execute the swing with at or near the same consistency. 

Sure, if the goal is mediocrity at the plate......Which is the norm for most all softball programs....

Quote:
There are many ways to teach hitting

Sure are....And, most of them are utilized in softball....The result is, poor execution at the plate for most programs....

Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........

The reason is, hitting instruction in softball at all levels is mostly poor.......There are a few programs in softball that are the exception....But, only a few.......

Have to agree with Bluedog on this post. Here's some I like. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting;jsessionid=7yxsp1f2p2.buffalo_s


Mark. I'll third that.

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indyrun

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Reply with quote  #159 

Bluedog - great vid(s).  I had to look at them ALL. Thanks

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #160 

Gonein2point86 - another group of great clips.  Where do you all dig these up - could watch for hours?

gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #161 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
I see a vast "left and right wing conspiracy" at work among parents of would be hitters to reduce the strike zone to postage stamp size in the middle of home plate so that their progeny can hit the ball, always using the chevy shaped strike zone as an excuse for ineptitude instead of teaching their daughters how to hit. .


Nah. Just legalize boat oars for our inept daughters and we'll call it square.

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #162 

ProudDad, for you........


Also, here's a great video on the mental aspect of hitting and how to cure a hitting slump....



TwoToSix

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Reply with quote  #163 

Proud Dad's kid could use a tooth pick and still hit like crazy!


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ssarge

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Reply with quote  #164 

Quote:
Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........


If that is your subjective judgment, fine.  Of course, there is no reason to have a subjective judgment when it comes to statistical production. 

And the stats are very, very similar.


Leaders in D-1 BB and SB, 2008:

Average:

Nicole Alvarez       .480
Buster Posey        .460


HRs:

Steph Fischer        27 (63 games)
Buster Posey, Michael Herrington, Matt Clark, Gordon Beckham, all with 26 (58-66 games)


RBI:

Buster Posey       92 (66 games)
Charlotte Morgan  79 (65 games)



The AVERAGE production for D1 players is also very similar.



It seems clear that players in both venues solve the relative challenges of their sport with equal alacrity.  I see nothing in the statistics to indicate a statement that hitting is BB is "far superior."  Not if the measurement is success rate, and I can't imagine why anyone would contemplate using any other measurement.

Common sense clearly concludes that male athletes are stronger, faster, and quicker.  As they are in every sport.  And the baseball pitch is harder to hit, IMO.  Throw that all into the mix, things balance, and the totals come out about the same. 


GoldTBfan

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Reply with quote  #165 
Sarge,
You should be resting up for this morning's game, good luck.
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #166 

Quote:
Common sense clearly concludes that male athletes are stronger, faster, and quicker.  As they are in every sport. 

Common sense should tell us, IMO, that stats must be compared top to bottom to be an indicator....

The problem in softball is not the stats leaders....It's, the others....

The others, in baseball, hit much better.........

The gaps in top to bottom of the hitting lineup are larger in softball....


Pudge

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Reply with quote  #167 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge

Quote:
Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........


If that is your subjective judgment, fine.  Of course, there is no reason to have a subjective judgment when it comes to statistical production. 

And the stats are very, very similar.


Leaders in D-1 BB and SB, 2008:

Average:

Nicole Alvarez       .480
Buster Posey        .460


HRs:

Steph Fischer        27 (63 games)
Buster Posey, Michael Herrington, Matt Clark, Gordon Beckham, all with 26 (58-66 games)


RBI:

Buster Posey       92 (66 games)
Charlotte Morgan  79 (65 games)



The AVERAGE production for D1 players is also very similar.



It seems clear that players in both venues solve the relative challenges of their sport with equal alacrity.  I see nothing in the statistics to indicate a statement that hitting is BB is "far superior."  Not if the measurement is success rate, and I can't imagine why anyone would contemplate using any other measurement.

Common sense clearly concludes that male athletes are stronger, faster, and quicker.  As they are in every sport.  And the baseball pitch is harder to hit, IMO.  Throw that all into the mix, things balance, and the totals come out about the same. 


Not even close Sarge!

When a single baseball pitcher can make the ball rise, curve, screw, drop, change speeds, and throw bb's all in the same game, then I will agree. But as long as a baseball hitter can sit "dead red" and not worry a lot with breaking pitches, the baseball pitch will NEVER be harder to hit than softball.

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ssarge

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Reply with quote  #168 
Quote:
You should be resting up for this morning's game, good luck.


We could have used it - we were not sharp this morning.
ssarge

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Reply with quote  #169 

Quote:
When a single baseball pitcher can make the ball rise, curve, screw, drop, change speeds, and throw bb's all in the same game, then I will agree. But as long as a baseball hitter can sit "dead red" and not worry a lot with breaking pitches, the baseball pitch will NEVER be harder to hit than softball.


As the statistics indicate, this point - which I MADE in my previous post (see below) - is balanced by the fact that the ball is in the hitting zone in softball for so much longer.  Because the raw pitch speed is so much lower.  This means more margin of error for the softball hitter.

These factors - and probably a myriad of others - balance out, which is why the statistical production in both environments is basically equal.  It is equal because the relative challenge is equal.  No other conclusion is logical, at least from my perspective.

If someone has a reasoned alternative explanation, I'm all ears.  But the answer seems to scream "equal challenge."



Quote:
Of course, the pitch "closing speed" argument is valid.  To put a fine point on Mark's excellent example, a 70mph pitch released from 36 feet is going to be very difficult to hit.  A 700mph pitch released from a cannon situated at 360 feet would allow the exact same release time, but would be impossible to see, much less hit.  So at least in this area, the baseball pitch is clearly more challenging.  However, I believe this is balanced by a couple of factors.  For one, women pitchers generally move the ball both directions - extremely rare in baseball.  And with the wide (Chevrolet-logo shaped) strike zone so ridiculously prevelant in Gold and college play, a real challange.  And while I am on record with a different perspective (than many on this board) of what the rise ball "really" does, without question, it is a different look for the FP batter than anything her male peer faces.



Mark

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Reply with quote  #170 

Yeah it's probably close and I'm sure you are right on the statistics. My point of view is, as I sit and watch the WCWS, I see only about half the teams that look good swinging the bat. As I watch gold qualifiers, I see many kids swinging bats in just an embarassing fashion. I don't see this over at Baseball USA here in Houston but I do see it at the Territory Qualifier. The teams I see who do swing it well in fp REALLY stand out. Maybe it's just a numbers thing and there are so many boys playing that the level gets pushed higher. OTOH, my sense is, the female fp pitchers are more highly skilled, and earlier, on average than the boys bb pitchers. Water cooler talk I suppose. Doesn't really matter. Help the kids in front of us be better tomorrow than they were today. That does matter.

ssarge

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
Help the kids in front of us be better tomorrow than they were today. That does matter.


Very well said.
pablo

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Reply with quote  #172 

Is a softball traveling at 70 MPH from 43 feet. Traveling at a different speed than a baseball traveling 70 MPH from 60 Feet 6 inches? For the really smart people here at UCS. Which ball going 70 MPH will get to the hitting zone first? The ball traveling 60 Feet 6 Inches? Or the ball traveling 43 feet. There is so much false information on this thread!


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Mark

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Reply with quote  #173 

I think the discussion was about baseballs that were moving 20+ mph hour faster than the softballs in the discussion. I'd have to agree the thread contains things I would take issue with. Can you be more specific?

Chapple

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Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo

Is a softball traveling at 70 MPH from 43 feet. Traveling at a different speed than a baseball traveling 70 MPH from 60 Feet 6 inches? No, they are traveling at the same speed.  For the really smart people here at UCS. Which ball going 70 MPH will get to the hitting zone first? The ball traveling 60 Feet 6 Inches? Or the ball traveling 43 feet.  The ball traveling only 43 feet will get to the plate first.  There is so much false information on this thread!

Chapple

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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge

Quote:
When a single baseball pitcher can make the ball rise, curve, screw, drop, change speeds, and throw bb's all in the same game, then I will agree. But as long as a baseball hitter can sit "dead red" and not worry a lot with breaking pitches, the baseball pitch will NEVER be harder to hit than softball.


As the statistics indicate, this point - which I MADE in my previous post (see below) - is balanced by the fact that the ball is in the hitting zone in softball for so much longer.  Because the raw pitch speed is so much lower.  This means more margin of error for the softball hitter.

These factors - and probably a myriad of others - balance out, which is why the statistical production in both environments is basically equal.  It is equal because the relative challenge is equal.  No other conclusion is logical, at least from my perspective.

If someone has a reasoned alternative explanation, I'm all ears.  But the answer seems to scream "equal challenge."



Quote:
Of course, the pitch "closing speed" argument is valid.  To put a fine point on Mark's excellent example, a 70mph pitch released from 36 feet is going to be very difficult to hit.  A 700mph pitch released from a cannon situated at 360 feet would allow the exact same release time, but would be impossible to see, much less hit.  So at least in this area, the baseball pitch is clearly more challenging.  However, I believe this is balanced by a couple of factors.  For one, women pitchers generally move the ball both directions - extremely rare in baseball.  And with the wide (Chevrolet-logo shaped) strike zone so ridiculously prevelant in Gold and college play, a real challange.  And while I am on record with a different perspective (than many on this board) of what the rise ball "really" does, without question, it is a different look for the FP batter than anything her male peer faces.


This is probably the single most difference in my mind of why hitting a softball is more difficult.  1) pitchers (from the batter's perspective) can move the ball trajectory and movement in all four directions making it more difficult to know where to make contact with the ball.  2) the underhand motion results in a release point that is different from any other aspect in softball; where in baseball it is the same.  IOW, in baseball whether it is hitting a ball thrown by the pitcher or catching a ball thrown by the shortstop, the release point and anticipated trajectory and motion are somewhat similar (even though the pitched ball does have more movement).  In softball, as a hitter, the only time you see the ball released from a point below the waist is when batting and you have to learn the ball movement for that which is different.  For a baseball player to hit a softball without any experience with such a release point, they are totally at a disadvantage IMO. 
Valley

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Reply with quote  #176 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge

Quote:
Hitting in College baseball is far superior to hitting in College softball........


If that is your subjective judgment, fine.  Of course, there is no reason to have a subjective judgment when it comes to statistical production. 

And the stats are very, very similar.


Leaders in D-1 BB and SB, 2008:

Average:

Nicole Alvarez       .480
Buster Posey        .460


HRs:

Steph Fischer        27 (63 games)
Buster Posey, Michael Herrington, Matt Clark, Gordon Beckham, all with 26 (58-66 games)


RBI:

Buster Posey       92 (66 games)
Charlotte Morgan  79 (65 games)



The AVERAGE production for D1 players is also very similar.



It seems clear that players in both venues solve the relative challenges of their sport with equal alacrity.  I see nothing in the statistics to indicate a statement that hitting is BB is "far superior."  Not if the measurement is success rate, and I can't imagine why anyone would contemplate using any other measurement.

Common sense clearly concludes that male athletes are stronger, faster, and quicker.  As they are in every sport.  And the baseball pitch is harder to hit, IMO.  Throw that all into the mix, things balance, and the totals come out about the same. 


There is a statistical issue with the categories that are a total and not an average. 
Since an NCAA baseball game is 9 innings, the number of opportunities for a college baseball player should be significantly higher than a college softball player - statistically speaking.  Taking your RBI example - Buster Posey had his RBIs in 66 games.  Over the course of those 66 games - he should in theory get a minimum of 44 more at bats than a softball player that played the same number of games (66 games x 6 outs more per contest = 396 total outs / 9 outs for his next single at-bat = 44).  Obviously - that is an estimate which cannot account for RunRule contests, official games shortened by weather, home team not batting in the bottom of the last inning, etc.  This is just using the theory that they played the same schedule with the same results - which obviously they didn't - but you can understand the argument.
In reality, he ended the season with 257 at-bats while Morgan had 192 at-bats.  Without looking it up, the discrepancy in actual plate appearances is probably even more significant.  Using a per at-bat or per plate appearance figure would be more valid.
ssarge

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Reply with quote  #177 

Valley:

very valid point, thanks.


You could probably add to this the subjective judgment that the FP hitter sees the de-facto #1 pitcher of the other team a far greater percentage of the time than does a BB hitter facing at least 3 starters, some middle relievers, and a closer or two.





Quote:
Is a softball traveling at 70 MPH from 43 feet. Traveling at a different speed than a baseball traveling 70 MPH from 60 Feet 6 inches? For the really smart people here at UCS. Which ball going 70 MPH will get to the hitting zone first? The ball traveling 60 Feet 6 Inches? Or the ball traveling 43 feet. There is so much false information on this thread!

AGAIN, the release point is the issue, not the distance of the rubber.  Separate deal. 


But where do you see elite BB with 70mph pitching?  I am completely lost by this comment - it seems almost nonsensical.  The comparison is between elite FP players and elite BB players.  Pitch speed in those forums is 65-70 and 92-98 respectively.  Occasionally slightly higher (or lower) in both.  But those are the realistic ranges.  And after all the math is done, the reaction time in both venues is just about 0.45 seconds.  Meaning both balls get to the hitting zone at about the same time.  The BB is IN the hiting zone for less time (only one consideration in determing difficulty, but an important one) making it - in THAT regard more difficult.

pablo

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Reply with quote  #178 
These reaction times you are posting are garbage.
Factually the ball does not travel faster through the baseball hitting zone. Please get a grip on actuality and reality. 0.45 is not an average advanced reaction time for softball. You are not even close. Please measure from release point to front edge of plate times. You may be surprised?



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Paul Moore
gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #179 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo
These reaction times you are posting are garbage.
Factually the ball does not travel faster through the baseball hitting zone. Please get a grip on actuality and reality. 0.45 is not an average advanced reaction time for softball. You are not even close. Please measure from release point to front edge of plate times. You may be surprised?


 First you cite "the ball does not travel faster through the baseball hitting zone". You support that point with the following:  "0.45 is not an average advanced reaction time for softball".

Reaction time and closing speed through the zone are two different subjects.

I have no idea what your point is.

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slider201

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Reply with quote  #180 
A softball crossing the plate at 70 mph and a baseball crossing the plate at 98 mph have about the same reaction time of 0.38 seconds from 43' and 60.5' respectively. (These at-the-plate speeds are for grins since drag slows the ball, therefore pitch release speeds translate back to be greater than possible.)

70 mph is 102.6 fps, which gives a batter about 0.04 seconds to make contact in the zone.

98 mph is 143.7 fps, which gives a batter about 0.03 seconds to make contact in the zone.

These assume the same bat arc.

The difference is 28 mph, 41.1 fps, or 1 hundredth of a second in the zone.

Doesn't sound like much, but either the bb player's bat speed has to be 25% faster than a sb player's, or the bb player's timing 25% better to hit the ball.

It's a combination.


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