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tenfour

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Reply with quote  #91 
Actually, OC, "nescient" is used quite often and is heard regularly during heated discussions at tournaments. 
Example:  2 fans are having a rousing discussion about whether a certain player is a better hitter than another player.

1st fan: YES she is!

2nd fan: nescient!

I am sure we have all heard "nescient" many times in heated discussions similar to this one!

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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #92 
Dog thank you......


Dad
I was proud of my wordage there......
It took a while to find that darn word in a dictionary.
Now we all see why I thank god everyday for spell check......and Mark Hanson for my words of the day......

LOL



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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #93 
bluedog - After watching Mays and Williams, I harken back to an article that maintained that hitters hit with a dominate arm. In other words, a lefty might use his/her left or right arm more dominantly in the swing, and the reverse would be true of righties. The article was entitled something like "When righties are really lefties". As a student of hitting, what is your response? If I remember correctly, I used my right arm more whether I was batting lefty or righty.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
tomg

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Reply with quote  #94 
joisey -

i wil give my opinion while waiting for bd to chime in.

the MLB pattern requires arm dominance to resist being overwhelmed by the body turn so a matchingimpact zone can be controllably set up. hands stay back longer this way, shoulders stay closed longer and read time is increased.

when the GO decision is made. a stretch and fire end of loading is created which permits late on the fly matching adjustment.

just as in the classic golf swing. the way this resistance/arm dominance works is for the bat/club to be accelerated in a more vertical plane while the body and hips turn in a level plane. in this way, when the arms (meaning entire upper limb/forearm/wrists too) accelerate the barrell in this second plane, addiitonal stretch is creted so the arms set the matching swing plane.

the classic golf swing IS truly arms dominant, BUT you have unlimited time to swing in golf.

in hitting, you have to quicken things, so you shorten the arm as a lever and you get a running start of the barrell to prvent "drag".

so in hitting, you swing the bat in the resisting plane more by turning the knob early, then supporting this with TILT rather than turn of the shoulders to prevent "rushing"/ to enable the stretch and fire to work up from the hip snad then turn the shoulders.

the preparation/loading for mlb hitting is also similar to how to how you prepare for an overhand throw with nedd to synch upper and lower body with uper limb resistance controlling how lower body contributes.

in this sense, in both high level overhand throw and mlb hitting 9and classic, so-called "2plane" golf:

arm action is king.

in golf it really is the downswing of the arms that dominates adjustment/timing.

in MLB, it is more the forearms torquing the handle, more "hands and hips"

"
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #95 
bluedog - I know that you will hate my word choice in writing about "both" hands (arms) playing a role in the swing, but do you mean that the (righty swinger) left arm "pulls" as the right arm "drives and pushes"? Does one or the other do more "work"? I am very right handed and tend to be stronger in my right arm, and I therefore tend to rely on it, especially the forearm, more in the swing. It has the same feel as pitching underhand to me. My left arm guides the bat head and is basically along for the ride.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #96 
bluedog - Good question. I see him loading up with a reverse motion, pulling the bathead into the contact spot with his right arm, and then whipping his left hand (arm) through at and after contact (reminds me of a good curveball-riser motion except for the position of the left hand and wrist), rolling his wrists in the follow through. I am eliminating what the body does at the same time on purpose for the sake of my question.
P.S. I also notice the power derived from the left shoulder (upper body) rotation to contact with the attached left arm whipped to and through the contact spot.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #97 
Tyrus Raymond Cobb, the Georgia Peach.
P.S. If you don't pull/push, just what do you do? It's difficult to explain all this in words on line because words mean different things to different folks.

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #98 
blue - "turn" ??? I'm not being a wise guy. What does that mean in terms of the swing?

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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
OklahomaFan

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Reply with quote  #99 
You guys should really check out how Josh Hamilton swings for the Texas Rangers. That is a pure definition of how you should hit. Textbook swing.
rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #100 
Any Action from the upper body is a result of the rotation of the lower body around the front axis. This causes the arms/levers to extend as the force of the rotation increases. The rotation of the swing is around the Front Axis....which is the front hip of the hitter.....
BTW: The swing of the batter from UCLA is pretty dead on as far as mechanics goes......Caitlin Benyi isnt it?

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bluedog

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Reply with quote  #101 
Quote:
Any Action from the upper body is a result of the rotation of the lower body around the front axis. This causes the arms/levers to extend as the force of the rotation increases. The rotation of the swing is around the Front Axis....which is the front hip of the hitter.....
BTW: The swing of the batter from UCLA is pretty dead on as far as mechanics goes......

You describe the typical softball hitter's swing.....But, MLB hitters swing in an entirely different pattern.......
tomg

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Reply with quote  #102 
rocklifter-

when you look at MLB swings closely, you will see the bat is turning before the shoulders.

when you swing in the MLB pattern, you will in addition feel that the shoulders in fact are NOT actively turned but instead tilt to accelerate the bat more in the more upright plane than the more level plane the hips and body turn in.

when you swing different ways (there are 2 patterns the body will be guided by depending on the swing keys you focus on) and look at video, you will be able to better see the difference in passive shoulder turn/2 plane vs active shoulder/single plane swings

as blueddog has said, the primary role of the shoulders/scaps in the MLB pattern is as a linkage or connector not an active turner.

IF they are instead used to actively turn the bat out of sequence {rather than the arms turning the bat first.then using the shoulders to boost the acceleration in the developing swing plane) then the quick/late stretch and fire of the torso is interrupted/interfered with/dampened/"rushed" which lessens ability to keep hands back as well as quickness of acceleration and adjustability of swing plane.

this 'early batspeed" (ability to quickly accelerate bathead from a position where the hands have stayed back more) can be often seen in MLB clips as "Rearward blur" of the bat head as the shoulders tilt (front shoulder needed to be loaded down/in earlier to prepare for tilting up later).

often this untilting of the shoulders looks VERY different than shoulders turning, for example look at mays shoulders tilt way up as opposed to
benyi who wraps the bat and does not provide enough upper body resistance to keep the hands back or create the quick stretch and fire type torso action.

with respect to the lower body, this MLB pattern needs to be a synching of upper and lower body actions controlled by the upper limbs. thinking of rotating around the front hip is a very poor description of the necessary action that positions and prepares the lower body to be able to slave/support the upper body. for this lower body rsponsiveness in the MLB swing to happen, you need an upright posture and you need an inward turn and negative move with emphasis on loading nto the back hip.

if you get bent over at the waist and stick the butt out as a necessary counterbalance, this takes the legs out of commision so they can no longer synch with the arm action the way they need to for the body to have a well timed coil.

then as the body DOES start to coil as you "rotate into toe touch" there DOES have to be "vertical loading" (the coil/seprartion would be "horizontal loading" to keep the loading muscles on stretch. but this type of action is mainly a "sit" type action where. again you must avoid bending over too so much as to force the hips out of the necessary LEVEL turn.

then you are ready for the GO decision which will be slaved to upper body as shoulders tilt to boost bat that arms are already turning. this adjusts the spine angle and angle of connection of the lead arm and puts the front heel down wherever it is best for supporting the plane set up by the hands as controllers. this invlves a weight shift and balance that will stabilize the body for the bathead to reach max speed/escape velocity at the planned impact point.

it is much easier to create the upper limb resistance/control by cocking the bat up vertically/more out of plane with the level turning hips.

the arms are telling the lower body what to do. the upper body action does not result from what the lower body is doing in this MLB pattern. again, the limbs are synching different upper and lower body actions just as they do in the overhand throw with hand/release point as controller.

hip action is NOT well described in any case by "rotation", especially in the MLB pattern. the structure of the hips sitting on the 2 legs does not lend itself well to rotating around a central axis and weight shift combined with back and/or front hip turn vs thrust are much better ways to describe this action.

it IS easier to have shoulder action that is "rotation", but even then, that is not the primary shoulder action, rather tilting is primary in the MLB pattern.

rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #103 

No sir.....I disagree with both of you....
I didnt describe the typical softball swing at all.
Most softball swings are disconnected or in fact some of them are looped in their swing path to the ball.
For extreme wordage and very little meaning I give you credit...


BTW: I didnt say Central Axis....I said Front Axis.....ie: Front Hip...
Maybe you should go argue or read some of Steve Englishbeys site pertaining to this....


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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #104 
Someone should come up with a dictionary of terms applicable to MLB swings, as well as a definition of the MLB swing itself beyond "it's what major leaguers do". Then folks could discuss it without feeling as though they are overwhelmed by nomenclature, and thus losing concepts.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
tomg

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Reply with quote  #105 
joisey -

figuring out some way to make a translation is a good idea.

what does it mean when descriptions seem to fly in the face of what you see on video for example?

why are the MLB type guys saying:

swing down

keep the shoulder in there

hit against a firm front side

knob to ball

meet my top hand/etc.

Why is it you also hear exactly the opposite advice on occasion ?

One reason is that the swing descriptions are a mix of feel and visual cues.

Another reason which has been recently clarified in golf is that there are 2 different swing pattern options. 2 very different/distinct/even opposite options of how you position and sequence the swing, even though both work via the same underlying physical/biomechanical/scientific principles/model.

IF you sort both of these out, THEN you can start making a reliable translation.

So, for example, when "rocklifter" says the description I give of the MLB swing is all wrong, I would say it is right, just different from Mr Englishbey's description of the swing.

But, both descriptions are of patterns that are inborn and used/realized depending on the instruction and the task.

Englishbey is describing the single plane pattern which is rarely seen in successful MLB power hitting.

The Englishbey pattern is based on info from Mr Nyman at stepro. Nyman's theory is that a consistent swing requires simplicity and the simplest type swing is when you swing the arms and bat around the body in the plane of the shoulders, powered by the shoulder turn.

certainly, if you were an engineer, you would design things simply to be consistent, HOWEVER, that is not how nature works. There, a choice of patterns has evolved where strong attractions are inborn to TWO different "high level" patterns, and the way "consistency" is acheived is by learning the whole pattern in as pure a form as possible. One pattern OR the other very different pattern.

This is Jim HArdy explaining how the same swing fundamentals work in golf:

Hardy's Theory Based On 'Plane' Concepts
The Arizona Republic

Golfers usually turn to club pros when they need help with their swing, but where do the pros go when they need help in teaching?

In growing numbers, they are sitting at the feet of Jim Hardy, a former PGA Tour pro whose "plane and simple" theory might provide the answer to why most golfers struggle to improve.

After nearly 30 years of studying hundreds of golf swings and observing dozens of instructors, the swing guru from Houston has adopted the theory that all golfers use a one-plane or a two-plane swing - and that the concepts of those two don't mix.

"You can use either one and you can be successful with either one, as long as you don't mix and match," Hardy said. "The elements are not compatible and, as a result, there are probably more people being hurt by instruction than at any time in history.

"If you look at guys like Seve Ballesteros, Ian Baker-Finch, Chip Beck and David Duval - they have been taught right out of their business. They have lost their game. Duval was the No. 1 player in the world, and he didn't just fall out of bed one day and forget how to play. What happened is he has mixed two-plane issues with a one-plane swing."


_______________________

Now, when it comes to baseball, the vast majority of successful MLB hitters use the 2plane "swing down"/"keep the shoulder in their type pattern which is necessary to provide a late/adjustable stretch and fire powered swing.

Neither the 1 plane swing around in shoulder plane swing, NOR hybrids are successful in MLB.

Once you understand this, then you can make the translation and better explain what it is you see.

For example, look at how Benyi's swing is different from the high level MLB types. She has a long swing. She needs to have SOME kind of "resistance" to keep the hands back to get some stretch to resist when the hips open, but she does this in a weak way with wrapping the bat instead of in a strong/controllable way whch requires turning the knob (torquing the handle) and tilting the shoulders ( not rushing the turn, letting it work up from the hips which turn fairly LEVEL).

So then look how far out front the hands are when she makes contact.

That is a LONG swing with LATE batspeed where she is forced to DECIDE early.

This will not succeeed in MLB where you have a smaller sweetspot and need "early batspeed" which consists of keeping the hands back longer, reading the pitch longer, then acclerating the bat later/quicker in a better matched trajectory creating a forgiving "impact zone" for square/fair contact.

Their are 2 different options that the body will be attracted to, just as in golf.

When you sort the Englishbey/Nyman info using this, then you you can make sense of the mixed feel and visual cues and understand better what you are seeing.

It also helps to get the feel of the 2 types of patterns which can be done in either golf or hitting or both.


IF you destination is the MLB pattern, THEN you should emulate MLB hitters. This has the advantage of being very similar to the high level overhand throwing pattern.

IF you just want to get the best results you can in fastpitch, you might choose this pattern OR you might choose the Englishbey pattern, especially if you do not have high level overhand throwing mechanics.

Mixing the patterns as in follow Nyman/Englishbey AND emulate MLB swings is not a good idea in my opinion.

Not understanding your body will be attracted to one or the other pattern will also interfere with learning/results.



rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #106 
Frank,
    Be careful what your reading......Snake Oil Salesmen tend to try and sell ineffective products. Vast usage of words doesnt mean the information is relevant.

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gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #107 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Any Action from the upper body is a result of the rotation of the lower body around the front axis. This causes the arms/levers to extend as the force of the rotation increases. The rotation of the swing is around the Front Axis....which is the front hip of the hitter.....
BTW: The swing of the batter from UCLA is pretty dead on as far as mechanics goes......Caitlin Benyi isnt it?

Rocklifter,

 I'm not sure I'm loving that swing. It doesn't look to me like she maintained the box as well as she could have (compared to that MLB shot pictured above). Do you think it's possible she got fooled for a sec on that pitch? It looks like the swing breaks down a little just going into contact. I'm not really liking the arms. Feel free to set me straight, I'm not dead set on this. Thanks.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #108 
Rock - No problem! Momma din't raise no fools.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
Pudge

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Reply with quote  #109 
Wow! I leave for a few days, come back, and every hitting guru in the country has shown up with all of their big words and have yet to teach anyone anything.

It is obvious by this thread that until their is a universal language for hitting, there will never be any agreement on what is happening.

Second, until people start recognizing with their own eyes what is really going on, having a universal language won't matter.

Third, it is plainly obvious to me, that the people who believe in the "high level swing" can't even agree on who has one and who doesn't. Or, for that matter, really know what one is!

Continue on confusing the masses.

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rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #110 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonein2point85

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Any Action from the upper body is a result of the rotation of the lower body around the front axis. This causes the arms/levers to extend as the force of the rotation increases. The rotation of the swing is around the Front Axis....which is the front hip of the hitter.....
BTW: The swing of the batter from UCLA is pretty dead on as far as mechanics goes......Caitlin Benyi isnt it?

Rocklifter,

 I'm not sure I'm loving that swing. It doesn't look to me like she maintained the box as well as she could have (compared to that MLB shot pictured above). Do you think it's possible she got fooled for a sec on that pitch? It looks like the swing breaks down a little just going into contact. I'm not really liking the arms. Feel free to set me straight, I'm not dead set on this. Thanks.


I went back and looked at this video some more and you may be right. I went to Siggys site that has this swing and I compared it to Kirsten Riveras and I see what you mean. It does look like she is disconnecting a bit on the same location pitch as is shown with Rivera. Still when compared to other ladies in the game she looks really good.
My two personal favorite swings are still Rivera and That Girl From ASU....>Cant remember her name to save my life....HA HA HA \

What still amazes me is the ladies that dont have that great of a swing and yet their are successful.


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I voted for Trump. 
Mark

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Reply with quote  #111 

I go out to tournaments for three days, come back, and Tom the armchair coach house of cards theorist is still engaged in pecksniffian sophistry. At least some things stay the same.

Chapple

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Reply with quote  #112 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
Someone should come up with a dictionary of terms applicable to MLB swings, as well as a definition of the MLB swing itself beyond "it's what major leaguers do". Then folks could discuss it without feeling as though they are overwhelmed by nomenclature, and thus losing concepts.
Frank, didn't we go down this path a couple of years ago?  My head still hurts.  I think I'll bypass any post that is more than 10 lines long. 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #113 
Chapple - Absolutely, but I am still in search of the grail. Thus far I haven't found it, but it seems that some have. I would just like to understand what they've found.
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"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
bluedog

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Reply with quote  #114 

Quote:
.....I am still in search of the grail. 

No, Joisey, you're not......

In the words of a guru...."If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there."

rocklifter

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Reply with quote  #115 
The significance in this isnt finding the grail but actually searching for it...
Like Cain in Kung Fu.....He walked the Earth in search of.................

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I voted for Trump. 
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #116 
blue - Ah yes, Grasshopper. To understand the process is to validate the end of a journey in the mind of the traveller. Sometimes it is the process itself which must be validated however. "Wax on - wax off".
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #117 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudge
Wow! I leave for a few days, come back, and every hitting guru in the country has shown up with all of their big words and have yet to teach anyone anything.

It is obvious by this thread that until their is a universal language for hitting, there will never be any agreement on what is happening.

Second, until people start recognizing with their own eyes what is really going on, having a universal language won't matter.

Third, it is plainly obvious to me, that the people who believe in the "high level swing" can't even agree on who has one and who doesn't. Or, for that matter, really know what one is!

Continue on confusing the masses.


Ask them to type slower for you Pudge.

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- There Will Be Blood
gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #118 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonein2point85

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocklifter
Any Action from the upper body is a result of the rotation of the lower body around the front axis. This causes the arms/levers to extend as the force of the rotation increases. The rotation of the swing is around the Front Axis....which is the front hip of the hitter.....
BTW: The swing of the batter from UCLA is pretty dead on as far as mechanics goes......Caitlin Benyi isnt it?

Rocklifter,

 I'm not sure I'm loving that swing. It doesn't look to me like she maintained the box as well as she could have (compared to that MLB shot pictured above). Do you think it's possible she got fooled for a sec on that pitch? It looks like the swing breaks down a little just going into contact. I'm not really liking the arms. Feel free to set me straight, I'm not dead set on this. Thanks.


I went back and looked at this video some more and you may be right. I went to Siggys site that has this swing and I compared it to Kirsten Riveras and I see what you mean. It does look like she is disconnecting a bit on the same location pitch as is shown with Rivera. Still when compared to other ladies in the game she looks really good.
My two personal favorite swings are still Rivera and That Girl From ASU....>Cant remember her name to save my life....HA HA HA \

What still amazes me is the ladies that dont have that great of a swing and yet their are successful.


I know what you mean. We don't use too many fastpitch players as swing models and usually go with MLB players. They just have better/more efficent patterns of movement (Barry Bonds is easily my favorite swing model). On the positive, it seems like there's more high level swings in fastpitch each passing year. Tonya Callahan's swing is a beauty. Also LOVE Brittany Lastrapes' swing. That girl maintains the box beautifully.


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- There Will Be Blood
Mark

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Reply with quote  #119 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudge
Wow! I leave for a few days, come back, and every hitting guru in the country has shown up with all of their big words and have yet to teach anyone anything.

Yeah well TomG got tossed from baseball fever and had to find a place to get a pontificating fix before he got the shakes and I suppose he followed bluedog over here.

gonein2point85

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Reply with quote  #120 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
blue - Ah yes, Grasshopper. To understand the process is to validate the end of a journey in the mind of the traveller. Sometimes it is the process itself which must be validated however. "Wax on - wax off".


That's not Cain. You're thinking of the Okinawan handiman, Mr Miyagi.

"Hummph. You beginner luck!"





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"I... drink... your... milkshake!"

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