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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #2881 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Lots of LEO used to use Mossberg as their duty shotguns. There is something I noticed recently, and maybe someone can offer an answer. In the 70-90's, almost every county Sheriff, and local town, and big city Policeman in Texas had a 12 gauge Mossberg pump shotgun mounted in a carry rack standing up in between the front seats. I haven't seen that in a while. I have seen a lot of recent news footage of LEO opening their trunks, and pulling out AR-15's, but I don't see the shotguns mounted at arms reach in every patrol car like I used to. What's up with that? Public perception, or what? I always perceived it as a pretty smart ideal to have a 12 gauge within reach. Did they sacrafice the gun and mount for a laptop computer mount?

I don't think it is the laptop in the way.  They could just as easily put both the AR and the shotgun in the trunk and pull the one they need.

Honestly I think there are 2 factors.  The AR is possibly the greatest platform ever built (so far).  So versatile.  Yeah if you are in super tight hallways and a few corners you might be wishing for a shorter barrel.   But really that is like 2 out of every 1000 corners.  By the time you tighten to where an AR is a problem, it is a problem even for shorter barrel shotguns.

The flip side being the assailant has something with some range, and you cannot even lay down cover on him, then you are truly f'd.  The range for cover fire on an AR is way out there.  I mean you can probably reach 600 maybe 700 yards for reasonably effective cover fire.   You keep the guys head down.  Your buddies show up with their ARs, go get some angle work their way under cover to 300-250 yds.  Goodnight bad guy it is over. 

Short in, the 9 has just become such a great service weapon.  Dependable.  With modern bullets, going to pack more than enough punch.  You can drop a 20 or even 30 round mag in, or work on your quick mag change skills. 

Even in the service.  Used to be all the house sweeps showed guys with shotguns, or maybe a ppsh-41s or thompsons.  Now you watch house sweeps and they are almost always using ARs and 9mm pistols. 

It is not uncommon in Iraq and Afghanistan for 3 AR's to go up against 10 or 12 AK's.  All of the AR's come home, none of the AK's.  Some of that is training.  But a lot is the AK just gives up so many yards, especially as rate of fire (dynamic speed of fight) goes up.  Effective cover fire for an AK is like 250-300 yards. 

Watch Restrepo, Korengol or other live action battle movie documentaries from Iraq or Afghanistan.   You will regularly see the Americans often being pretty sloppy on maintaining cover.  You will see the other side tucked up super tight, only moving when/where they can stay super tight to their cover. 




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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2882 
Very interesting take
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woody

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Reply with quote  #2883 
There also may be a center console in the way of a gun mount. They aren't driving around in Plymouth Fury land barges any more.
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BAMASportzLuvr

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Reply with quote  #2884 
When the rubber meets the road, I don't give two da_ns what weapon or what it's name is. Just fire a few off first.
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woody

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Reply with quote  #2885 
Randomly chunking lead down range, or spray and pray wouldn't be my first choice.
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BAMASportzLuvr

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Reply with quote  #2886 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Randomly chunking lead down range, or spray and pray wouldn't be my first choice.


Seems evident that when the bad guy approaches you and draws first, you would rather take the time to 2nd. guess yourself. Friend that don't fly in my world. In peacetime I've never had the occasion to be in that event. While serving in bad country....... Well,,,, I'm here and he/they ain't.

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woody

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Reply with quote  #2887 
Not second guessing at all. I’m attempting to make a couple of good shots that are center mass instead of dumping a magazine. I would urge anyone that normally shoots at the range, to make a trip to a location you can shoot at night. Doesn’t matter if it’s a pistol with a light/laser, or a shotgun, or AR platform with a light, it,s completely different. Depth perception and peripheral vision are shot, and you will usually wind up using the light as a sight the first time instead of your optics or iron if you aren’t accustomed to shooting under these conditions. I wouldn’t advise having only range time, and then have your first experience shooting at night during the stress of a crisis situation.
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Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #2888 
Full page add in the OKC paper.



Image may contain: 1 person, smiling, text

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #2889 
81% is too high a number, probably even in ny or chi. Can't imagine that's even in the realm of the possible in ok.
pabar61

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Reply with quote  #2890 
Quick lefties - identify this gun.

Kent State University graduate, Kaitlin Bennett, went viral for taking a parting shot at her school's anti-gun policy Sunday.

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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #2891 
That’s a weapon of war if I ever saw one
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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #2892 
Too lazy to find an old thread for this but the pussy cop that sat on his manpon while 17 kids got shot has been collecting his $8700 a month pension since April
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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #2893 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabar61
Quick lefties - identify this gun.

Kent State University graduate, Kaitlin Bennett, went viral for taking a parting shot at her school's anti-gun policy Sunday.

Why that is a skeery gun. Of Course.

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DietCoke

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Reply with quote  #2894 
Seize the moment!  Go buy another gun today!!  Join the NRA or make a donation!  There's been another school shooting!  9 more children have lost their lives!

It will be interesting to see what gun law "reforms" the TX governor will propose - if any.  A "roundtable discussion" sounds like a week attempt at appeasing those who truly want to see some effective reforms.

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Will_I_Wynn

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Reply with quote  #2895 
Time for more security at our schools (metal detectors, police, etc.).  I thought our leaders were moving in this direction but little appears to have been done.  Not sure why.  At the same time, I'm thankful this shooter's Dad apparently had no AR-15 at home.  We may have had 30 killed today.
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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #2896 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DietCoke
Seize the moment!  Go buy another gun today!!  Join the NRA or make a donation!  There's been another school shooting!  9 more children have lost their lives!

It will be interesting to see what gun law "reforms" the TX governor will propose - if any.  A "roundtable discussion" sounds like a week attempt at appeasing those who truly want to see some effective reforms.

Buy gun - check
Join NRA - already checked, so I bought several more memberships for friend, double check

You saw the part where that kid used improvised explosives (IEDs). pressure cooker and pipe bombs correct?  Going to blame that on the NRA as well?

What are you going to say when reports start to surface that people have been telling everyone this kid is showing signs of extreme instability and democrat authorities chose to ignore it to improve their School not jail initiatives?

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Lost_1

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Reply with quote  #2897 
A shotgun and a .38 revolver, hardly a state of art weapon of war. 



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If we are not careful, our colleges will produce a group of close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists, consumed with immoral acts. - Dr. Martin Luther King


“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.” Winston S. Churchill


keepinitreal

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Posts: 30,717
Reply with quote  #2898 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DietCoke


It will be interesting to see what gun law "reforms" the TX governor will propose - if any.  A "roundtable discussion" sounds like a week attempt at appeasing those who truly want to see some effective reforms.


We won't be doing any of that

Quote:
Originally Posted by DietCoke




Seize the moment!  Go buy another gun today!!  Join the NRA or make a donation!  There's been another school shooting!  9 more children have lost their lives!


We'll be doing more of that

My bad, fixed

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2899 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_I_Wynn
Time for more security at our schools (metal detectors, police, etc.).  I thought our leaders were moving in this direction but little appears to have been done.


This is the first time, under any of your 5 handles that you have mentioned such a thing.  You and the freshyturd have been trying to grab guns away from the good guys.  Never once did you recommend common sense gun measures.

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2900 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_I_Wynn
At the same time, I'm thankful this shooter's Dad apparently had no AR-15 at home.  We may have had 30 killed today.


You wanted all skeery AR-15s eliminated, "no more black guns", we told you they would then move to other guns, now you back off on all guns?  pussy, go for full gun seizure

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2901 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwApoligist

Buy gun - check
Join NRA - already checked, so I bought several more memberships for friend, double check

You saw the part where that kid used improvised explosives (IEDs). pressure cooker and pipe bombs correct?  Going to blame that on the NRA as well?

What are you going to say when reports start to surface that people have been telling everyone this kid is showing signs of extreme instability and democrat authorities chose to ignore it to improve their School not jail initiatives?


she'll move to eliminate pressure cookers.  After all these years, Duaine comes up with more LEO, more metal detectors in schools.  Never, had he agreed to those measures before

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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #2902 
Dad probably should have locked these weapons away from this kid a long time ago.  I suspect the kid was acting unstable for sometime.  
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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2903 
Scotty wants the Dad locked away also.  I could see him being charged with a felony.  Don't shoot me woody
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uwApoligist

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Reply with quote  #2904 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepinitreal
Scotty wants the Dad locked away also.  I could see him being charged with a felony.  Don't shoot me woody

If there is evidence of negligence, it may come down this.  That is a big if.

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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #2905 
I guess this is the NRAs’s fault as well.

A student who survived the Texas school shooting on Friday has spoken out about the accused gunman, saying that he was 'emotionally bullied' by his classmates and coaches.

Dustin Severin, an 11th-grade student at Santa Fe High School, told KRIV that the suspected shooter, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtiz, was constantly teased at school, but that he believed it never escalated into anything physical.

"I know he's picked on by coaches and other students. He didn't really talk to anyone," he told the station. "My friends from the football team told me that coaches said he smelled, like, right in front of his face. And other kids would look at him and laugh at him ... nothing like physical but they still emotionally bullied him."

"I never thought he would just snap and shoot up the school," Severin added. "He didn't seem like he was a hateful person."

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woody

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Reply with quote  #2906 
If you have an unstable family member, or a spouse of a family member that is unhinged, then yes, you keep weapons out of their hands. Yes, I have been in that situation in my teens and early 20's when my Father married a woman that was unstable. I had to stash all but one of his guns away at my place. Even before that step, we attempted to stop the irrational behavior by intervention, and it was semi successful. If a person is acting completely unhinged, if it is possible, institutionalize the person. I have known more than a few people that are depressed, manic depressive, and chemically unbalanced in their brain. I knew one family that had a Son that was college bound, top of his class, great person, then something happened in his brain. It all occurred over a period of about 4-6 months, and the kid went from full ride academic scholarship at college, to a chemical imbalance, holding his family at gunpoint, and a psychiatric ward. They identified the chemical imbalance, treated it with meds, and he was able to semi function, and hold down an unskilled job. His personality reverted to that of a 10-12 year old adolescent. But he kept refusing the meds after his release, because they made him feel numb, and not alive as he described it. He was raised in a wealthy, loving, and caring environment, and had a sister that has no problems and prospered.

I keep all my weapons in a safe, except for 3 defense weapons that are within reach in my bedroom, office, and living room. As my Grandchildren are getting to an age that they are now able to discover these weapons, I am opting for biometric pistol vaults in office, and bedroom, and everything else gets vaulted until the boys are ready for real weapons training.

My wife was talking to my DD this afternoon, and  DD was upset at what the world has become. Wife responded that we really were concerned with bringing children into the world they were born into, and that it has gotten worse for them (evil, and bad/crazy) people doing evil things. I can't disagree. America used to have a society of religious people (pick your flavor) that married, and raised their children properly. It seems today, that anything goes, and that all societal and family norms have been thrown by the wayside, and spit upon.

I myself don't think it is really different than it was in say the 1930's. The difference in my opinion is threefold.

One, there are a lot more people in the USA than there used to be, and many originated from outside our nation that are being immersed into a bizarre and strange culture that is different from where they came from, so by the increased numbers of our population alone, likewise the percentage of crazy people likewise increased.

Two, the absence of fathers as a stabilizing force in the household has also increased. This is probably one of the most destabilizing affects on our nation. Young Men without a Father figure at age 16-17 will attempt to dominate the household, and the Mother. Been there, done that. It sucks, and it is a major factor in crime statistics if you look for it.

Three, instead of telling young children that their behavior is unacceptable, it is avoided.

The rowdy kid that needed a few extra minutes to burn off energy at recess in elementary school that causes a disruption in class, is now counseled, instead of being sat in the corner, ostracized by peer pressure and made to behave.

The kid that was belligerent and talked back to his teacher in class gets sent to the Assistant principal who brings in a councilor and a parent if they can be bothered to show up.

It used to be common knowledge that teachers didn't send you to the office for misbehavior, or bad grades. They just told the coach you needed some attitude adjustment, and that was far worse than having a principal call mom or dad. The coach would either run your ass off, or pull out the paddle to insure future misadventures did not occur. Somehow that type of system used to work. Sure we had some farked up people that did stupid sh!t, but in my day, lots of kids had shotguns and rifles in the gun racks in their trucks in the school parking lot, and nobody even thought about threatening to doing an evil act. It would have been unthinkable, something so despicable, so low, and sub human, so anti social that it would have resulted in an instantaneous beat down by every Kicker, Hippie, and Cosmic Cowboy enrolled in the school.

We were working class males making a buck in high school from the age of 16 or earlier. Mechanics, wrecker drivers, welders, framers, electricians. Most guys had a full time job in the summer, some worked offshore oil rigs. Everybody got a paycheck, everybody was proud to earn it, and they had the muscle cars to prove it. Weekends were for hunting, fishing, playing poker, partying. Not sure where emulation of that work ethic got lost, or kids stopped being proud that they were productive participants in society. Both my kids worked in high school, and one of them made some real money, but then again, he is a lot smarter than me.

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keepinitreal

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Reply with quote  #2907 
Classic
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spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #2908 
Woody, your post reads like a “What not to do as a liberal parent” guide. Hence we have wound up with the soy laden beta males that are currently roaming our streets.
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BAMASportzLuvr

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Reply with quote  #2909 
Spaz, as you know, when the gutters overflow you get that type amoeba to surface. Your post is short and to the point.  
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mikec

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Reply with quote  #2910 
Great post.

I remember the bolded part well.  NOBODY wanted to grab the desk in front of the coach.  You'd volunteer to run laps for a week rather than that.

As bad as the butt whipping was, it was even worse if you walked outta the coach's office with any sort of bloodshot or red in your eyes.

The other that could happen is you get a talking to, and think you're clear.  But, in the next practice, you're a human blocking dummy.

My coach had this little drill he liked to where the whole defense lined up single file, and you stood there in a breakdown position.  He'd blow the whistle about 20 secs, and a guy would get a 15 yard running start at you.  If you got knocked down, you better get back up, or you're getting stomped on.

That sort of drill would get a put in prison today.  Back then, we all knew why it was happening, and what was gonna happen, and we all dealt with it.

I'll say this too - if the coach heard you call a girl the b-word or something like that - you were gonna that drill everday for a week.

I guess playing patty cakes with therapists and listening to rap music is better though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
If you have an unstable family member, or a spouse of a family member that is unhinged, then yes, you keep weapons out of their hands. Yes, I have been in that situation in my teens and early 20's when my Father married a woman that was unstable. I had to stash all but one of his guns away at my place. Even before that step, we attempted to stop the irrational behavior by intervention, and it was semi successful. If a person is acting completely unhinged, if it is possible, institutionalize the person. I have known more than a few people that are depressed, manic depressive, and chemically unbalanced in their brain. I knew one family that had a Son that was college bound, top of his class, great person, then something happened in his brain. It all occurred over a period of about 4-6 months, and the kid went from full ride academic scholarship at college, to a chemical imbalance, holding his family at gunpoint, and a psychiatric ward. They identified the chemical imbalance, treated it with meds, and he was able to semi function, and hold down an unskilled job. His personality reverted to that of a 10-12 year old adolescent. But he kept refusing the meds after his release, because they made him feel numb, and not alive as he described it. He was raised in a wealthy, loving, and caring environment, and had a sister that has no problems and prospered.

I keep all my weapons in a safe, except for 3 defense weapons that are within reach in my bedroom, office, and living room. As my Grandchildren are getting to an age that they are now able to discover these weapons, I am opting for biometric pistol vaults in office, and bedroom, and everything else gets vaulted until the boys are ready for real weapons training.

My wife was talking to my DD this afternoon, and  DD was upset at what the world has become. Wife responded that we really were concerned with bringing children into the world they were born into, and that it has gotten worse for them (evil, and bad/crazy) people doing evil things. I can't disagree. America used to have a society of religious people (pick your flavor) that married, and raised their children properly. It seems today, that anything goes, and that all societal and family norms have been thrown by the wayside, and spit upon.

I myself don't think it is really different than it was in say the 1930's. The difference in my opinion is threefold.

One, there are a lot more people in the USA than there used to be, and many originated from outside our nation that are being immersed into a bizarre and strange culture that is different from where they came from, so by the increased numbers of our population alone, likewise the percentage of crazy people likewise increased.

Two, the absence of fathers as a stabilizing force in the household has also increased. This is probably one of the most destabilizing affects on our nation. Young Men without a Father figure at age 16-17 will attempt to dominate the household, and the Mother. Been there, done that. It sucks, and it is a major factor in crime statistics if you look for it.

Three, instead of telling young children that their behavior is unacceptable, it is avoided.

The rowdy kid that needed a few extra minutes to burn off energy at recess in elementary school that causes a disruption in class, is now counseled, instead of being sat in the corner, ostracized by peer pressure and made to behave.

The kid that was belligerent and talked back to his teacher in class gets sent to the Assistant principal who brings in a councilor and a parent if they can be bothered to show up.

It used to be common knowledge that teachers didn't send you to the office for misbehavior, or bad grades. They just told the coach you needed some attitude adjustment, and that was far worse than having a principal call mom or dad. The coach would either run your ass off, or pull out the paddle to insure future misadventures did not occur. Somehow that type of system used to work. Sure we had some farked up people that did stupid sh!t, but in my day, lots of kids had shotguns and rifles in the gun racks in their trucks in the school parking lot, and nobody even thought about threatening to doing an evil act. It would have been unthinkable, something so despicable, so low, and sub human, so anti social that it would have resulted in an instantaneous beat down by every Kicker, Hippie, and Cosmic Cowboy enrolled in the school.

We were working class males making a buck in high school from the age of 16 or earlier. Mechanics, wrecker drivers, welders, framers, electricians. Most guys had a full time job in the summer, some worked offshore oil rigs. Everybody got a paycheck, everybody was proud to earn it, and they had the muscle cars to prove it. Weekends were for hunting, fishing, playing poker, partying. Not sure where emulation of that work ethic got lost, or kids stopped being proud that they were productive participants in society. Both my kids worked in high school, and one of them made some real money, but then again, he is a lot smarter than me.
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