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mikec

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Reply with quote  #1 
I thought I would start a new thread, because it doesn't seem appropriate to me to debate this in the other thread.

That said - if semi-auto weapons are banned, wouldn't criminally insane people find another method of destruction? A couple 9mm's with 10 rounds in the mags, and an extra mag each, would not meet the assault weapons ban definition and would have been just as bad. If it wasn't handguns, it'd be knives or swords or something else.

I can agree that fully automatic assault weapons should be highly regulated, to the point that thy are almost impossible to own.

The shooter in CT did not use automatic weapons. How far are you willing to take a ban, and what do you think it will accomplish?

As for me, I am anxiously awaiting delivery of my Christmas present to myself - a Ruger SR9c.
mikec

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Reply with quote  #2 

Originally Posted by masare
If MADD can diminish the number of people who get behind a wheel drunk then surely we can solve this horrible waste of precious life by a sensible gun plan! Don't you think?

So what exactly is your sensible plan?
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #3 
mikec - I have no interest in trying to explain to somebody why I think semi-automatic weapons are unnecessary just as I have no interest in hearing others explain why we need them in society.  For the sake of these families, I wish our Representatives would just put a bill up for vote and let it fail or succeed.  If we can't pass acceptable legislation, then folks like me will have to allow more time and try again later if and when a majority is gained.  No use dragging this on forever.  Then we can move on to subjects like mental illness and school security which will require longer discussions and greater input.  These are areas where people aren't already dug in and debate will help. 
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Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Originally Posted by masare If MADD can diminish the number of people who get behind a wheel drunk then surely we can solve this horrible waste of precious life by a sensible gun plan! Don't you think? So what exactly is your sensible plan?


Just curious.....was MADD successful by oulawing or restricting the instrument of the damage, the automobile, or by addressinjg the psyche of the user of the instrument?

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #5 
Dewey - I can respect that opinion, though semi-autos come in a lot of forms. Some semi-autos were banned by the Clinton ban because of other characteristics. I don't think all semi-autos are created equally.

I'm just curious as to what exactly people think should be banned.

Ps - as for school security, all of the schools down here have School Resource Officers (SRO's) that are fully armed. At my daughter's middle school, an SRO foiled a plot by a 7th grader to blow up the school. He had mason jars full of gas, with cloths stuffed in for malatov cocktails. Someone smelled gas, saw the kid (he was arraying them in the bathroom as his base), and called the SRO. The SRO ended up being stabbed in the stomach, as this kid was also armed with knives in case someone tried to intervene. He still managed to handcuff the kid.

I guess all schools don't have SRO's, which I don't understand. High schools have 2.


woody

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Reply with quote  #6 
The Genie is out of the bottle. There are millions and millions of law abiding Americans that own Ar-15's, AK's and whatever SKS knockoff they could afford. They have multiple high volume clips, and have 1000-5000 rounds of ammo. They own reloading tools, tens of thousands of primers, shell casings, and plenty of powder so they can roll their own. Now tell me what sensible plan can be enforced, that would prevent a deranged person from doing something evil. How about Chicago? Do gun laws have any effect on gun violence? Bad people do bad things. Crazy people do even worse. If you think by trashing the 2nd amendment, you will stop this you are delusional. Try a different route. I think we have suffered a societal breakdown. No God in the home, no influence of religion. No Fathers in the home, kids being diagnosed with mental illness, and pumped full of drugs so Mom can get a SS disability check. My spouse works in Special Ed at our local school district, and she offers this theory. When we were kids, there were always a few "different" kids in our schools. Now grown up, they have kids. These people are unstable, and Grandma winds up raising the Grand kids, and not having any solid family environment, these "different" kids, have more children, that also turn out dysfunctional, and they have kids, and they do the same. It is a problem more of environment, and proper upbringing, coupled with mental problems. Ask yourself this, if a child is home schooled for reasons other than religion, or a totally terrible school district, why do you think this is? Chances are that child was unable to function in a normal school setting, had severe behavioral problems, that led to them being withdrawn from not only public, and private schools, but withdrawn from society, and any normal societal interaction. I am not criticizing loving families that have chosen to self school their children, I am pointing out that there is a growing class of dysfunctional individuals that cannot operate within our society, live as outcasts, and have serious problems because they feel out of touch with the real world. Chances are they are indeed out of touch, and unless we deal with what made these people dysfunctional, we will have more of the same. No strong family structure, no God, no morals, no social interaction. What do you think will be the result of this?
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Softballfanatic

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Reply with quote  #7 
There are many laws on the books that make, murder, assault etc., etc., illegal yet they still occur. Look up the statistics on gun ownership vs. gun crime. I believe you will find that less than 1% of the guns in the U.S. are used in violent crimes. That is not to say that 1% is acceptable. But the fact is, laws only keep honest people honest. Just like fences around property keep honest people out. There are already laws on the books. We don't need more laws, we need more enforcement of existing laws. The bad guys are going to get the guns anyway. It's illegal for a felon to posess a gun...yet they do. There was a felon just arrested in a road rage murder here. He shot the guy. Also FYI, law enforcement carry guns to protect themselves firs, and us second. Their response time is not fast enough in most cases to prevent crimes like this. THere is less crime if the criminal fears that his victim just might shoot back! I have such warning signs in my homes windows. Much more effective than the local alarm company.
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ForeverInBlue

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Reply with quote  #8 
Dewey,
Excellent point re addressing topics where everyone isn't already "dug in." Our politicians and media (who shape opinion) are so diametrically opposed on the "big issues" that they have become dysfunctional, and the public tends to fall lock step in behind them. From this subsection on a softball forum all the way to the halls of Congress the first inclination on almost everything is to find the fault line and begin attacking and defending, using the same old arguments over and over, creating a greater divide than existed prior to the X incident. No one wins in this scenario, and the battles take their toll on our common decency.

Gun control is a hot button issue and a perfect example. There can't be a meaningful dialogue that consists wholly of emotion driven demagoguery, and yet, predictably, that is shaping the conversation in Washington, the media, and with the public. I've never seen so many armchair experts on Gun Control and the Second Amendment who have almost no idea what thy are talking about, and are missing the bigger picture - gun control alone isn't going to solve the issue.

As you stated, it may be better to leave that for now and look at the broader implications, to include mental health, the legal drug trade, school security, violence in film, etc, where the battle lines aren't so entrenched. It's not an easy discussion to have because our impulse is to want action, and results, now, and all the more difficult because we don't have our reference points and fault lines preset for us. The upside is that we have to come into these new conversations with an open mind, and in many cases will learn together as the discussion progresses. What we don't need is to immediately create fresh divides. I saw a headline today "Obama cut funding for mental health study..." but refused to read the article. I'm not going to allow the media to shape my thinking on this. My thought process is already predisposed to focus not on "what" happened but "why" it happened, and if the media and public discourse can't move beyond creating new fault lines, I'm more than willing to go it alone, and can only hope that others agree and a "secondary" discussion will develop that helps us all to find our way toward a better understanding of what is ailing us.
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverInBlue
Dewey,  As you stated, it may be better to leave that for now and look at the broader implications, to include mental health, the legal drug trade, school security, violence in film, etc, where the battle lines aren't so entrenched.


ForeverInBlue - Before you mistakenly give me credit I don't deserve, please know I'm not saying leave it alone for now.  I want, have always wanted, certain gun control legislation put up for vote.  I was simply saying it serves me no purpose to explain to others why I want certain guns eliminated and I have no interest in hearing why the guns that concern me are necessary in society..  I haven't taken the time to research and learn which guns should be included and will trust those politicians I respect to make that call.  I'm simply interested in the vote, not the discussion.  I fully hope legislation is voted on in the near future but I have no desire to make my case as to why.  In my mind it's obvious.

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #10 
Dewey (and Masare) - without going into the why's and wherefore's, the what's seem important. What do you, and others, want banned:
- hunting rifles
- hunting rifles larger than a certain caliber?
- shotguns
- handguns
- assault weapons
- large magazines (> what? 5, 10, 100?)
- antiques?
- black powder rifles?
- certain types of ammo?

If you're gonna ban stuff, you must have some idea of what it is.

I already have said that I've never been much of a fan of automatic weapons, or even assault-type weapons. Outside of that, though, I'm not sure what you can ban. Even with an assault weapons ban, I think bad people will still do bad things. They will find a way.

I got rid of my guns when we had kids. As it turns out, running 3 kids through softballapolooza didn't leave me time to hunt or shoot anyways. 1,000's of games later, though, as the last one nears college, I'm ready to start hunting and shooting again.

I've never owned a handgun, but I feel like it's time for that now as well.
spazsdad

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Reply with quote  #11 
I think we already have plenty of gun control. There are thousands of gun laws on the books. You will never legislate these events out of existence and criminals don't follow the laws anyway so all you wind up doing is further burdening the law abiding citizen.
Nobody was talking gun control on Thursday now it is being tossed around like if we don't act right now we are doomed. Sound familiar?

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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #12 
2nd Amendment-
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Supreme court after one of it's many gun control decisions--
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56

Types of arms you can legally own has long since been an argument since everyone agrees that there has to be a limitation---otherwise you could own any weapon. Weapons have advanced alot since 1700s.
Types of arms you can legally carry publically is another issue that isn't just national but state, city, town, and individual who runs a building. Even in Arizona and oklahoma where you can carry. If you own a business or store you have the right to dress code requirements, allow or disallow pets, age requirements, and disallow smoking -drinking-firearms or allow these things. The person with the gun or pet etc. has the right to go somewhere else. As long as you do not discriminate based on race, religion, nationality, etc. you can have rules of conduct.
The tweeks will be in sales, distribution, ammo, and what and where you can carry.
The twist in this latest tragedy is that the gun owner legally had guns including the high powered which used to be illegal then legal then illegal then legal. The guns did not protect the gun owner as she was killed with her own guns. The killer was unable to purchase guns..so the regulations in place did their job. He stole the guns from his first victim and used them in his mass shooting. An armed person was putting their kid in a car seat in a parking lot. A guy with a knife grabbed the wife and put knife to her neck and the other had a knife on him. They took his gun and used it hitting a 7/11 (they were later caught). Criminals have the advantage outside---they know their intent and strike when victim is vunerable and we all are many times during the day..especially if we are out with family. We aren't walking with out guns out. In the home the gun owner has the advantage against 1 or 2 criminals who are trying to get in, steal, look out, etc. all at once while the home owner locks and load for seek and destroy.

No one will ever take away the right for law abiding mentally capable non-felon citizens in america to own and keep a gun in their home nor will they ever go door to door and ask people to turn in illegal weapons (will be like illegal drugs where you have to be caught with them on you outside the home--not counting those who sell and distribute). Something will be done, nomatter how minor, because we as a country always react to violence with restrictions.

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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #13 
to answer the question "gun control--needed or not?"

Yes.
Anyone cannot own and carry any weapon they want anywhere they want.

Do we need more?

No.
Just enforce the ones on the book and keep up on the expired ones.


Strip clubs, bars, adult book stores, and video game stores have better security than many of our elementary schools.
Better security. Thousands of days of paid security isn't a waste of money...look at it like insurance and say you were covered for thousands of days just in case.

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #14 
My opinion, we are seeing the long term effect of teaching moral relativism. Ban what ever you want, it doesn't matter. Liberals have removed any moral compass or a fixed point of reference (both the bible and constitution) , then indoctrinated kids with the belief that they evolved from goo and they are nothing more than a meaningless result of random disconnected events and there you have it. Life is so devalued that killing babies in the womb for convenience is as common as taking aspirin and in fact is more accessible to kids than aspirin. The liberals call this "progress" then they wonder why these tragic things happen.
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pabar61

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Reply with quote  #15 
Grizz - right on point.  Here is a question for the liberals on the forum.

Even as a conservative and a 2nd amendment supporter, I understand the desire to ban assault weapons and ammunition that is "special" such as that used in Newtown.  I would support a ban on those weapons and bullets.

To our colleagues on the left, if we can support a ban on assault weapons and specialized ammunitons, would you support a ban on partial birth abortions?  I assume that as compassionate people, you are interested in protecting life.  I will even grant you the usual exemption for cases that involve not risking the life of the mother.  If the life of the mother is not at risk, will you support a ban on partial birth abortion.

I'm only interested in answers with a simple "yes" or "no".

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #16 
pabar - C'mon, you're not serious.  "I'll trade you the right to discriminate if you'll give me the right to control guns".  Or whatever.  This is not where you want to take us as a Country.  These individual issues are independent, stand on their own two legs, and deserve an up or down acceptance by society as a whole.  You're way to smart to treat such significant matters as if they're budget negotiations.
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woody

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Reply with quote  #17 
Dewey, there were more than 1 million abortions that killed children this year. There were over 30K people killed in drunk driving accidents in 2010, the latest reporting year. Please equate the moral outrage of the deaths of one group of children over the other. Please explain the Liberal media, and Liberal politicians rush to modify, and or eliminate the second amendment of our constitution, while ignoring 1 million dead babies thrown in dumpsters. This is beyond perverse logic. Politically correct perhaps, but completely disingenuous, and above all illogical at best.
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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #18 
There were 40,000 car deaths and almost 40,000 gun accident deaths last year.
There is no moral outrage over the elementary school shooting...it is shock. What morality is an issue? Drinking is moral issue. Sex outside of marriage is a moral issue. Crazy guy shooting kids isn't poltical or moral---it is shocking. Car deaths are common and happen every day. Elementary school children masacres don't happen.
Did anyone compare the shock of 9/11 with the number of car deaths? Same thing--an act of terrorism. Done to kill as many people as possible and take own life in the process.

Alcohol and tobaco are regulated. Guns are regulated.
There is no regulation on what anyone can do with their body. I am pro-life but there are many different circustances to a woman getting pregnant and and in all cases the person giving birth is not in mental or physical condition to give birth and raise the child. Mon may die giving birth, mom is junkie, mom has no clue who dad is and is a broke whore living on street so she can have a baby and let the taxpayers take care of her and the baby...and she can have more and let the taxpayers support them too. Now she is a taker and since she is single parent with several kids and cannot afford day care we feed and house her and she just makes babies.
If mom's life is at risk to have the baby she should choose--it is her life. This is the paramedic side of me speaking.

In our lifetime guns will always be allowed. Tweeks here and there and more restrictions that will not effect 90% of people. Some states, cities, counties will crackdown but not the country. Same as alcohol.
In our lifetime the usa as a country will never make abortions illegal unless they are prepared to lock up thousands of women who will do it anyways. Health regulations are not the same as item regulations.
States will but not the usa as a whole. And as long as there are states that allow women will go to those states for the abortion. They would go to canada or mexico. 10% of the abortions done in canda each year are from non-canadians. 30 abortions per 100 live births each year. That is sad and makes my stomach turn.
3 states with highest number of reported abortions each year are new york, florida and texas (also 3 of the 5 largest population states in america so I take the stats with a grain of salt as "of course they are").

When the usa as a country makes all abortions illegal we be at the time when we also restrict parents on government assistance from having more kids. And the result is the same--if a woman has an abortion and already has kids we lock her up and support the kids and her in jail. If a man and woman have kids while restricted (like in china) they go to jail. Forced birth will also increase the number of adoptions and kids supported by the state. Can't force parents to keep kids---and even if we did they would abandon them or get legally documented as unfit parents and have kids tken away from them.
The abortion issue involves a mountain of paperwork and many situations to address as it is written up......because it does involve forcing someone to do something with their body involuntarily and they will not raise a child they were forced to have even if they have the child. That is why I don't speak much on pro life stuff because I want to find a solid way to implement anti-abortion laws than merely arguing against abortions for moral reasons. But different states will make abortions legal/illegal each year and the debate will rage on...because unlike a gun, car, or bottle of booze giving birth gives you a life to take care of and what will happen to unwanted kids (we have over 1.2 million abortions in usa each year).Smh.

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ice_67

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Reply with quote  #19 
Expanding on CoachB25 stats. These are from the FBI website.

Murder Victims     
by Weapon, 2007–2011     
Weapons20072008200920102011
Total14,91614,22413,75213,16412,664
Total firearms:10,1299,5289,1998,8748,583
Handguns7,3986,8006,5016,1156,220
Rifles453380351367323
Shotguns457442423366356
Other guns11681969397
Firearms, type not stated1,7051,8251,8281,9331,587
Knives or cutting instruments1,8171,8881,8361,7321,694
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.)647603623549496
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1869875817769728
Poison1097115
Explosives1112412
Fire13185987875
Narcotics5234524529
Drowning121681015
Strangulation1348912212285
Asphyxiation10987849889
Other weapons or weapons not stated1,005999904872853
1 Pushed is included in personal weapons.     
Wolfpackfan

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Reply with quote  #20 
Gun Control only bans the tool but does nothing to fix the real problem. Ok( to be politically correct) the mentally disturbed individual( not my preferred choice of words) cannot get his or her's hands on said assault rifle , whats to stop them from patiently waiting in their car until a group of children are crossing the street or waiting for a bus and driving into them? Results are the same , does it make it any better that they didn't use a gun?
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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #21 
Notice the drunk driving deaths are also not listed as murder....also no car deaths at all are listed as murder nor cars as listed as a weapon.

Murder is Unlawful killing of a human by another human with malice aforethought.
Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter. Justified or accidental killings are considered homicides. Self-defense killings are justifiable homicide. Suicide is not considered murder in usa but assissting can be. Committing a felony such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping and causing a death in considered a felony-murder.

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JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #22 
In the "too much" column about gun control  should be, in my opinion, that an 11 year old brought a gun to school for protection and some adults said it was his Constitutional right.
In both directions, where does it all stop in favor of common sense?     Frank 


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Wolfpackfan

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
In the "too much" column about gun control  should be, in my opinion, that an 11 year old brought a gun to school for protection and some adults said it was his Constitutional right.
In both directions, where does it all stop in favor of common sense?     Frank 

Now I know you already know this but Common Sense went out the window in America a long time ago. There is No compromise any more there is only my side and your side I see it in our government I see it on this board.
Quick Story: In my little Community north of Phoenix we had a Deputy murdered on duty less then a year ago. Now in 25 years I have never carried a gun, I always figured stay out of situations or areas that I might need one. I am convinced those areas don't exist anymore , I started carrying right after the murder and shortly after that the wife and I went through firearm training( owned and been around guns all my life) and applied and received concealed weapons permits (Not required in Arizona) I felt if I was carrying a gun then I needed to know the laws and be proficient in the use of a firearm. Sadly if you meet me on the street I am carrying where legal.
Now I don't own an assault rifle but am still am not in favor of Bans on them because I don't trust the people making those decisions to use common sense to stop with just those weapons.
Just the way I feel!

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MadDogsDad

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Reply with quote  #24 
In this devestatingly sad situation, I am yet to see where any additional gun control, short of banning one of the weapons used, would have prevented this sickening event from happening.  The woman who owned the guns, obtained them legally, even had their been a ban on the Bushmaster, this individual would have had two semi automatic handguns.  Maybe the number of victims is less, but the act still takes place.  This sick man didn't kill simply because he had a weapon, he just potentially killed more.     For the record, I do not carry or own a weapon and I haven't hunted in 30 years.
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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #25 
fhoenix, where did you get your "40,000" figures? Just curious because I still don't see where the other 32,000 are that are not listed on the FBI stats.
Please tell us that your figures are actual statistic and not just a number you pulled out of your butt. Your credibility is at stake.

By the way, it is interesting that gun deaths have dropped every year for the last 5 years. Is that the result of legislation or more conceal and carry permits?

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fhoenix

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Reply with quote  #26 
Grizzlyfan----

The FBI stats that were posted were MURDERS.

I repeat my reply to it----
Notice the drunk driving deaths are also not listed as murder....also no car deaths at all are listed as murder nor cars as listed as a weapon.

Murder is Unlawful killing of a human by another human with malice aforethought.
Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter. Justified or accidental killings are considered homicides. Self-defense killings are justifiable homicide. Suicide is not considered murder in usa but assissting can be. Committing a felony such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping and causing a death in considered a felony-murder.

...............

I got my info just like info was gathered for this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody
Dewey, there were more than 1 million abortions that killed children this year. There were over 30K people killed in drunk driving accidents in 2010, the latest reporting year.


Those "30,000" killed from drunk drivers are not in FBI stats posted either. Did you say "I still don't see where the other 22,000 are that are not listed on the FBI stats"?
The drunk driver stats are correct. I didn't doubt woody--I  looked them up so I could see all the other deaths and specifics. My stats are correct (almost 40,000 gun deaths). From the FBI site.
More people are killed from drunk drivers than guns (of course there are 3x more vehicles and vehicles are used by most everyone every day including infants and elderly). Drunk driving and accidental shootings are not murders. Coach stated "12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms". I didn't list murders I listed deaths caused by firearms same as deaths caused by drunk drivers was listed.  Accidental shootings are not murders. Suicides are not murder. Manslaughter is not murder. Homicide is not murder. Self defense is not murder. In line of duty is as an officer is not murder. Drunk driver caused deaths are not murder. (and yes there are circumstances that cause something to be murder based on malice aforethought)
Oh...and the abortions were over 1.2 million. WTF? Nomatter where you stand you have to agree that over 1.2 million abortions is a issue that has to be addressed. That is ridiculous.

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GrizzlyFan

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Reply with quote  #27 
fhoenix, your numbers still don't come close to adding up. This confirms my skepticism of the majority of your previous posts on several other topics.
Next time you pull numbers out of your arse to bolster your point, be sure to clean them up a bit so it isn't so obvious where they came from.

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mikec

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Reply with quote  #28 
Therefore my post #10.  There is a sudden interest in gun control - fine.  That is a political topic, and should be debated like many others.  However, there is nothing in this particular case that leads me to think that tighter gun control would have made any difference at all.

There are legitimate arguments to be made that assault weapons and other instruments of mass destruction should not be available to everyone, but again, that would not have altered the outcome in the CT tragedy.

However, the world being what it is, I think it is time for me personally to get a good carry weapon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad
In this devestatingly sad situation, I am yet to see where any additional gun control, short of banning one of the weapons used, would have prevented this sickening event from happening.  The woman who owned the guns, obtained them legally, even had their been a ban on the Bushmaster, this individual would have had two semi automatic handguns.  Maybe the number of victims is less, but the act still takes place.  This sick man didn't kill simply because he had a weapon, he just potentially killed more.     For the record, I do not carry or own a weapon and I haven't hunted in 30 years.
Wolfpackfan

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Posts: 1,918
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
Therefore my post #10.  There is a sudden interest in gun control - fine.  That is a political topic, and should be debated like many others.  However, there is nothing in this particular case that leads me to think that tighter gun control would have made any difference at all.

There are legitimate arguments to be made that assault weapons and other instruments of mass destruction should not be available to everyone, but again, that would not have altered the outcome in the CT tragedy.

However, the world being what it is, I think it is time for me personally to get a good carry weapon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDogsDad
In this devestatingly sad situation, I am yet to see where any additional gun control, short of banning one of the weapons used, would have prevented this sickening event from happening.  The woman who owned the guns, obtained them legally, even had their been a ban on the Bushmaster, this individual would have had two semi automatic handguns.  Maybe the number of victims is less, but the act still takes place.  This sick man didn't kill simply because he had a weapon, he just potentially killed more.     For the record, I do not carry or own a weapon and I haven't hunted in 30 years.
SIG 1911 Ultra Compact 45 Auto, Small, Accurate with a nice punch

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Go Pack!!!!!!!!!!!
mikec

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Posts: 8,182
Reply with quote  #30 
I had kinda settled on a Ruger SR9c, but I'll check out the Sig - thanks.

Better decide quick, though, while extended magazines are still available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpackfan
SIG 1911 Ultra Compact 45 Auto, Small, Accurate with a nice punch
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