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WhatdoIknow

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Reply with quote  #121 
Let me reply to this. I posted a thread and pinned it for the articles Graham Hayes writes about COLLEGE SOFTBALL on a regular basis. I will put links to others who write a column about COLLEGE SOFTBALL on a regular basis.

Now, there may be some out there, but I have not found them, at least not ones that are national.

I will admit that I do not read all of his articles. The ones I have read have left me with different thoughts. I may have learned something, enjoyed a good feature, agreed on points and disagreed with points. I have had the opportunity to converse with him a couple of times and we have had good dialogue about his thoughts and my thoughts. We may not have always left with the same perspective, but enjoyed the conversation.

That is what his job is as a writer. Give you something to think about. And I for one, enjoy the fact that whenever I want to I get to go and read an article about COLLEGE SOFTBALL. Heck, if UCS had the budget to go out and get writers (which we have discussed) Mr. Hayes would be one of the first I would try to get, along with a writer from a former place I lived who used to tick a lot of people off with his articles. After meeting him I came to a conclusion that he only wrote that stuff to get people fired up and create something to talk about.

Either way, anything to do with the sport we are all here for, then I am all for it!!! 
wvuasports

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Reply with quote  #122 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volcrazy89


I don't understand HTH it's "dishonest" especially if it's true ..
It's dishonest because it has nothing to do with the discussion.  You trying to make it a part of the discussion is dishonest..

Quote:
What's more is that I don't understand why you're so bent out of shape because somebody doesn't share your precious view of him.
This is a silly statement.  I could say the same about you and your dislike of Mr. Hays, but I don't.  It's an ad hominem fallacy.  Instead of providing evidence to back up your claim, you'd rather point fingers and say, "Why are you so bent out of shape because I don't like him?!?"  I'm no more bent of shape than you are in this discussion.  Your prior belief is what leads you to believe I'm being irrational here, for some reason.

Quote:
I'm sure he's a great guy. That doesn't make him a great journalist.
Sure, one doesn't necessarily mean the other.  Nor is that the point.

Quote:
I like Phillip Fulmer very much as a person. Very nice and very generous. But not a great coach, and I wanted him gone.
Personally, I thought he was neither, but I digress.

Quote:
I'm not taking the time to look up a link and find an article through the sea that is ESPN.com. I remember some articles re softball from the 2007 season that I didn't found less-than-professional. If you think I'm going back two years in archives to find them, then you have way too high of an opinion of yourself.
"Too high an opinion of myself?"  I ask for proof for your claims and when you don't want to do it, it's because "I have too high an opinion of myself?"  Keep up the ad hominem attacks, they sure do your point of view wonders.

Quote:
If you want it, you can find it yourself. I'm sure that if I find one you'll just make a up an excuse as to why he wrote what he wrote, anyway.
I'm not the one who made the claim that he's a bad journalist.  Generally, when someone has an opinion, they tend to back it up with some type of fact, instead of going, "It's true!!!  Go find it yourself!!!"

Quote:
Don't believe me? Yeah, I don't particularly care. You can take it or leave it.
You don't care so much so that you continue to debate the point with me.  Yep, I believe you there

Quote:
That wasn't what I was trying to say.
Then why bring that up at all?  Just for kicks and giggles?

Quote:
You can nominate him for the next POTUS for all I care. By all means, continue to love him; I'm not trying to change your opinion of him. The point is that I'm not the only one who shares the opinion that he's simply not that great.
So, yes, you did appeal to popularity.  You're becoming a walking contradiction here.

Quote:
Again, you can take it or leave it. I'm not going to bend over backwards to try to get my opinion approved by you.


I have no problem with you having an opinion.  I do have a problem with people who walk into a discussion, proclaim their opinion, and claim they shouldn't back up their opinion with fact because, "It's my opinion!!!"  Well, yes, we all realize that.  We'd also hope that your opinion is based on actual fact, rather than you just making stuff up and running away when asked to provide evidence to back up your feelings.
noone

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Reply with quote  #123 
PD

After witnessing your behavior over many years of travel ball and high school ball, the turnaround in your attitude to being a do-gooder is astounding!  Apparently though, you have not been able to totally knock that chip off your shoulder as evidenced by your accusations and attack on me for voicing my opinion about your attempts at censorship. 
Dewey

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Reply with quote  #124 
WDIK - This thread should never have become controversial.  It was nothing more than a simple link to a writer who covers our beloved sport.  Maybe we need a Graham Hays Archive II to get back on track.

When one posts a comment that says the writer is not very good, it's akin to starting a thread titled, "Suzy Q is a terrible player".  Yes, it's an opinion but does absolutely nothing to move the dialog.  It appears to serve no purpose other than to provoke.  I took one stab at convincing the poster he may have misunderstood the writer and if that's policeing, then I'm guilty.

If there really are members in this forum who use several different monikers to help stir things up, they are probably ROFLTAO.  So be it.  I'll definitely take that into consideration the next time I feel the need to persuade a poster to rethink his/her post.

Finally, I'll comment once again on censorship.  It's amazing how overused this word is in this site.  If WDIK disallows, (or is encouraged by some of us to disallow), foul language, rumor, rude comments, or disrespectful posts, it's not censorship, it's responsibility and the preservation of this website's reputation.  If WDIK wants to allow these kind of posts and a governmental authority won't allow him to do so, then we have censorship. 

I have often heard another site called "eteams" referenced in this forum in a less than positive light.  It sounds as if irresponsibility at that site allowed it to spin out of control.  I'd hate to see that happen here.      

     


indyrun

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Reply with quote  #125 

Dewey --- More and more of our threads are seemingly moving in this direction.  It's troubling to me, as the "big draw", until recently, has been the general civility shown by most posters.  It seems that some deterioration has set in, much too often.  I believe, if this trend continues, we will lose "fans".

noone

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Reply with quote  #126 

Unfortunately Dewey, your definition of a deteriorating thread is one in which someone has a differing opinion from yours.

indyrun

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Reply with quote  #127 

noone - BUT, it's not mine, and many like me.  A deteriorating thread is one where participants start to get mean/nasty. Go back again, and check out the posts here. Way beyond just differences of opinion.

WanabeHorsey

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Posts: 3,737
Reply with quote  #128 
Dewey, Hope this helps.



censor

[
sen-ser] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun
1. an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.
2. any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.


JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #129 
UCS, since its inception, has been known as a forum where posters could come and discuss without fear of being bashed and ridiculed. Just today I received a private message from a newcomer from New Jersey who said that he was pleased by the tone of UCS and found it different from other softball webs where posters tear at each other "like rabid dogs". I do know that Robocoach wanted to establish a civil tone and have found that generally in my time here, and if that's censorship via a preconceived notion of civility, so be it.

I refuse to again get entangled in a debate about censorship. I do note that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that drunks and little children are the leaders in that area. Interpretation demands both intelligence and data gathering as well as analysis for proofs. That level of discussion which searches for validity is fruitful. Two opinions shouting at each other is just that. Sometimes it's up to the reader to determine which is which, and to which he chooses to respond. Consistent negativity, I think, is not a particulary attractive choice of constant opinion. Name calling on any level, and basic vitriole solves nothing and belongs in a barroom brawl rather than in a softball forum in my opinion. How an idea is stated is often as important as the idea itself.
Again, manners and civility are not too much to ask, whatever the subject matter. In my eyes that's "self censorship" of a sort required by civilized men and women.

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
iwitness

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Reply with quote  #130 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanabeHorsey
Dewey, Hope this helps.



censor

[
sen-ser] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun
1.an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.
2.any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.


And do you think that is bad...considering the context in which Robo invented this site??  I am kinda glad someone supervises manners. If I didn't like it..I would go somewhere else...or start my own site...but I don't think I would try to regulate someone else's invention.
slideby7

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Reply with quote  #131 
Mr. Joisey,
Sir, I resent the fact that you characterize those of us with opinions as either a dunk or a child, and then go on to enter the very debate which you state you refuse to become entangled in.  The difficulty with exercising censorship is that by it's very nature, subjective.  Therein lies the problem.
WanabeHorsey

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Reply with quote  #132 
Iwitness, supervising manners is one thing.  Supervising opinions is another.  So far in this particular thread, the monitor has not seen fit to deem the posts objectionable.  When some posters don't admire the work of a particular columnist, and respond defensively when they are attacked for it, is not in my opinion a reason to start exercising censorship.  I believe the problem with any type of censorship is that reasonable people can and do disagree.  How sad if for example we only went to see films and read books that were favorably reviewed.
iwitness

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Reply with quote  #133 

I agree!!  Just wondered why you tried so hard to convince the moderator of your opinion.

WanabeHorsey

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Reply with quote  #134 
Because I am opinionated.
iwitness

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Reply with quote  #135 
Yep!!

wvuasports

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Reply with quote  #136 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WannabeHorsey
Iwitness, supervising manners is one thing.  Supervising opinions is another.  So far in this particular thread, the monitor has not seen fit to deem the posts objectionable.  When some posters don't admire the work of a particular columnist, and respond defensively when they are attacked for it, is not in my opinion a reason to start exercising censorship.  I believe the problem with any type of censorship is that reasonable people can and do disagree.  How sad if for example we only went to see films and read books that were favorably reviewed.


The thing I find most comical is that those who dislike Hays seem to think that when they blast his work, everyone should either agree or not respond.  If you are going to make a post saying you think his work is sub-par, and I think opposite, of course I'm going to write a post saying I disagree.  Yet, there are many in this thread that believe that's somehow "censorship," because I have a varying opinion.  Odd. 

Disagreements are fine.  What makes me laugh is that when I ask for proof, or evidence as to why someone believes something, the posters get defensive and hide behind words like, "It's my opinion, I don't care what you think," and "Why do you care what I think?"  Apparently, I care as much about your opinion as you care about mine when you continue to reply.

Oh, and it appears quite obvious to me that a few posters are using multiple sign on's, which is... to say the least... a little sad.

tommygun

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Reply with quote  #137 

What would REALLY move this thread forward would be if someone would post a new link to a Graham Hayes article.

Dewey

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Reply with quote  #138 

Welcome back, Lawrie

tommygun

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Reply with quote  #139 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey

Welcome back, Lawrie

Sweet.

And thanks. Count me among those who appreciate what GH does for the sport.
JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #140 
slideby 7 - Please note the difference I make between an opinion (requires no support data nor analysis) - little children and drunks often resort to those. "I can whip anyone in this bar" or "The moon is made of green cheese". Interpretation, however, requires both support data and analysis to establish validity. Discussions between two frames of reference, each with a valid point and supporting data and analysis are lively and positive. I have seen them in discussions here in UCS of methods of teaching hitting. The respect for each other's knowledge is palpable, even in disagreement. Of course someone could write, "I don't care what these people say, my opinion is that anyone can hit a fastpitch softball". Another could write, "These people are all A$$es and don't know what they are talking about". In the former, there is no substance, and in the latter the purpose is to disparage rather than disagree. Both are mere opinions. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but a reader or listener should be able to discern between an opinion and an interpretation, with validity and method of message delivery as the ultimate measurements
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
slideby7

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Reply with quote  #141 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoiseyGuy
slideby 7 - Please note the difference I make between an opinion (requires no support data nor analysis) - little children and drunks often resort to those. "I can whip anyone in this bar" or "The moon is made of green cheese". Interpretation, however, requires both support data and analysis to establish validity. Discussions between two frames of reference, each with a valid point and supporting data and analysis are lively and positive. I have seen them in discussions here in UCS of methods of teaching hitting. The respect for each other's knowledge is palpable, even in disagreement. Of course someone could write, "I don't care what these people say, my opinion is that anyone can hit a fastpitch softball". Another could write, "These people are all A$$es and don't know what they are talking about". In the former, there is no substance, and in the latter the purpose is to disparage rather than disagree. Both are mere opinions. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but a reader or listener should be able to discern between an opinion and an interpretation, with validity and method of message delivery as the ultimate measurements


Everyone expresses opinions regardless of age and/or drinking habits. 


Opinion:

A belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty a personal view, attitude, or appraisal

 

An opinion is just that, one’s own personal view, attitude or appraisal.  It may not rest on grounds sufficient to produce complete certainty, nor does it have to.

 

A current topic of disagreement in the news these days is a cartoon that appeared in I believe the NY Post involving the recent Chimpanzee attack.  Some were convinced it was racist and others were adamant it was political satire devoid of racial overtones.  Those were opinions and neither could be proved indisputably like a math formula.  People that are devoutly religious can’t prove the existence of God, but we respect their faith.  Because someone’s opinion may be disagreeable or in some cases described as negative, is not reason to deprive the person that expressed it the right to do so.  There are comedians that some find disgusting, while others think they are hysterical and brilliant.  We may not like it, and that is our right.  If we find it too offensive, than we don’t read it, watch it, etc.  If the governing authority, in this case the moderator, determines it to be unacceptable, then he removes it.  Again we may not like it, so we are faced with the choice of living with the decision or not reading the forum.

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #142 
slideby 7 - OK !!!
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #143 

Time for completely new thread - PLEASE?

ACCfan10

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Reply with quote  #144 
Washington's Stenson Takes Nothing for Granted

Whether you like Mr. Hays or not, this is a great story about a great kid!

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #145 
ACCFan - Others might not agree, but I enjoy the way Mr. Hays puts image and word together, and combines that with subject matter. His transitions are excellent. Besides, I'm a sucker for a good human interest sports piece.
P.S. If someone out there demands a negative, I don't like the way Mr. Hays closes. I see his closing as amateurish and too abrupt, an attempt to capsulize the entire story in a generality (more appropriate to pure exposition than creative writing), but Michener had the same problem from my perspective, and he did all right in this nation and abroad.

__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
strikeoutplayer

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Posts: 333
Reply with quote  #146 
don't have a dog in the fight,
don't know what the fight is about,
but perhaps everyone should leave their daughters names out of posts and focus on enjoying the season and the game on the field.

I can imagine it is hard not to respond to someone when one feels attacked or wounded - but we see it many times when folks get in a "debate," and then things are written to get things right. 

And I wonder - do we all really need to know this?  Sure ~ I can chose not to read!  (That always is the comeback).  You have one parent who choses to be known and another for whatever reason choses not to be known, and in the interest of responding or defending, remarks are made and perhaps false conclusions are drawn.

So I ask ya - would anyone's daughter really want this discussed out there on a board for all to see?  We are all proud of our daughter's accomplishments but I want her to be proud of me too.  Discretion is never embarrassing or regret'd.

Two words:

Private message.

And please don't jump me - this is just my humble opinion. As I said, I don't know any of these folks but can imagine the look on my daughter's face if she was to read some of the posts we put up in the name of discussing softball.

Horror.
indyrun

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Reply with quote  #147 

SOP = great post!

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #148 
strikeout player - In a perfect world, your advice is solid. What is difficult is refraining from answering the posts of a few "snipers" who post now and again in a purely negative way and personalize it. I know what the problem is, but I have no solution except to ignore them.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
strikeoutplayer

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Reply with quote  #149 

Frank, I value your comments as everyone does.  As a rule, I agree ignore, but sometimes that dog just doesn't hunt. 

JoiseyGuy

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Reply with quote  #150 
strikeout player - Yes, I know. Sometimes it is very difficult to simply ignore. I've found that a Jack Daniel's and a "time out" from the computer helps.
__________________
"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking. Where it is absent discussion is apt to become worse than useless." Leo Tolstoy

"Do not try to teach pigs to sing. It will frustrate you and infuriate the pigs who will unite in anger against you, and you will never achieve singing your song". Dr. Petersen
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